Forsaken have always hurt Horde Honor

Story Forum
Prev 1 3 4 5 Next
This concept of the Horde's 'honor' has always been flimsy at best.

The WC3 Horde died In Wrath of the Lich King, a while before Garrosh Hellscream took the helm, when the forces under Sky-Reaver Korm Blackscar flanked the Alliance at the Broken Front, slaughtering them while they were engaged in the battle against the Scourge.

And do you know what was said by Korm Blackscar in the aftermath?

They saw the Alliance assaulting the gate and they attacked them from behind...

<After a brief pause, Korm bursts into laughter.>

THAT is what it means to be HORDE!

Were it not for them, the Alliance maggots would likely be holding that gate!

Their boldness has bought us precious time.


You can say this type of Orc died out with Garrosh but that's wrong. Look at the slaughtering of civilians going down in Stormsong.
04/16/2018 09:48 AMPosted by Vrokon
The WC3 Horde died In Wrath of the Lich King, a while before Garrosh Hellscream took the helm, when the forces under Sky-Reaver Korm Blackscar flanked the Alliance at the Broken Front, slaughtering them while they were engaged in the battle against the Scourge.
Except you're kind of overlooking the retort Garrosh gives. I'd accept that Orcish honor is questionable. But I don't think it was thrown out the window in Wrath.

"An ambush on open troops waiting to fight is one thing. To attack a regiment
already engaged in battle with another from behind? What would you do next?" Garrosh demanded. "Would you sneak into their camp and poisontheir water? Would you enslave one of their commanders with magic and force him to murder his troops while they sleep? Would you rain disease upon your enemies, like the Forsaken? Would you fight the way they do?"
Blackscar stuttered, at a loss for words.
"There is no combat but honorablecombat, Blackscar." Garrosh held up the report in front of his face and crumpled it in his hand. "This? This is coward's work! I will not have cowards among my ranks!"
04/16/2018 10:00 AMPosted by Floren
Except you're kind of overlooking the retort Garrosh gives. I'd accept that Orcish honor is questionable. But I don't think it was thrown out the window in Wrath.


I will admit that I forgot about the "Heart of War" short story, thanks for the correction, but this is where it began.

Also it's a shame that it's Garrosh, not Thrall, saying this because we've seen how his reign as the Warchief plays out.
04/16/2018 10:04 AMPosted by Vrokon
04/16/2018 10:00 AMPosted by Floren
Except you're kind of overlooking the retort Garrosh gives. I'd accept that Orcish honor is questionable. But I don't think it was thrown out the window in Wrath.


I will admit that I forgot about the "Heart of War" short story, thanks for the correction, but this is where it began.

Also it's a shame that it's Garrosh, not Thrall, saying this because we've seen how his reign as the Warchief plays out.
Yeah, I know they commented on it before, but the path for Garrosh never seemed consistent. He flopped between his characterization a bit between the start of Wrath, Heart of War, The Shattering, and Stonetalon.
04/16/2018 10:09 AMPosted by Floren
Yeah, I know they commented on it before, but the path for Garrosh never seemed consistent. He flopped between his characterization a bit between the start of Wrath, Heart of War, The Shattering, and Stonetalon.
Golden and Afrasabi (who wrote stonetalon) thought his character was the growing warchief the WOW Horde needed. They wrote him as nuanced and with lots of potential.

Knaak and the game writers thought he was a generic Orc raid boss, so they wrote him as LITERALLY HITLER in every single appearance and with lots purple loot.


<span class="truncated">...</span>

His characterization in MoP. He was about fighting morally, and for his people, and not using psychotic super weapons for power to slaughter countless innocents.


"Da Alliance think dey so smart. Dey hidin' behind dis truce of deirs, meanwhile dey searchin' dis island high and low for a powerful weapon, but no askin' for our help.

Sure, dey say da weapon is ta be used against da Iron Horde, but what is ta stop dem from turnin' it on us once we off dis world?

I say we take da weapon, and we be showin' dem who has da powah -- on dis world as well as ours.

For da Horde!"

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Shadow_Hunter_Gar%27ant

What was that you were saying?


Nice red herring. That quote doesn't imply any form of dishonorable conduct on the part of the Horde, just that they want to find a weapon before the Alliance does. Both sides are scrambling for it, it doesn't mean Vol'jin's Horde is antsy to use it on a civilian population.
04/16/2018 10:31 AMPosted by Kelisaria
that quote doesn't imply any form of dishonorable conduct on the part of the Horde, just that they want to find a weapon before the Alliance does. Both sides are scrambling for it, it doesn't mean Vol'jin's Horde is antsy to use it on a civilian population.

However, it does showcase the systemic communication failure that has plagued interfaction relations for WoW's entire history. Instead of sending an official envoy to say "Oi, we should make this a joint operation because super weapons make everyone uncomfortable" both sides went with "we must secure the macguffin first and stab each other profusely in the meantime".
04/16/2018 10:25 AMPosted by Threeslotbag
04/16/2018 10:09 AMPosted by Floren
Yeah, I know they commented on it before, but the path for Garrosh never seemed consistent. He flopped between his characterization a bit between the start of Wrath, Heart of War, The Shattering, and Stonetalon.
Golden and Afrasabi (who wrote stonetalon) thought his character was the growing warchief the WOW Horde needed. They wrote him as nuanced and with lots of potential.

Knaak and the game writers thought he was a generic Orc raid boss, so they wrote him as LITERALLY HITLER in every single appearance and with lots purple loot.
I've heard speculation that Afrasabi and Golden are retrying Garrosh's story with Sylvanas, but doing it thr way they'd initially intended before Cataclysm's cataclysmic failure in communication happened.
04/16/2018 10:36 AMPosted by Samariyu
I've heard speculation that Afrasabi and Golden are retrying Garrosh's story with Sylvanas, but doing it thr way they'd initially intended before Cataclysm's cataclysmic failure in communication happened.

Will we get to see her Sparta kick an evil Tauren off a cliff in one zone and then order the attack on Stormsong village in the next zone?
04/16/2018 10:36 AMPosted by Éamon
that quote doesn't imply any form of dishonorable conduct on the part of the Horde, just that they want to find a weapon before the Alliance does. Both sides are scrambling for it, it doesn't mean Vol'jin's Horde is antsy to use it on a civilian population.

However, it does showcase the systemic communication failure that has plagued interfaction relations for WoW's entire history. Instead of sending an official envoy to say "Oi, we should make this a joint operation because super weapons make everyone uncomfortable" both sides went with "we must secure the macguffin first and stab each other profusely in the meantime".


Didn't they make up some stupid excuse, like "magic" being on the island that made everyone fight and kill each other for no reason or heightened paranoia?
04/16/2018 10:37 AMPosted by Éamon
04/16/2018 10:36 AMPosted by Samariyu
I've heard speculation that Afrasabi and Golden are retrying Garrosh's story with Sylvanas, but doing it thr way they'd initially intended before Cataclysm's cataclysmic failure in communication happened.

Will we get to see her Sparta kick an evil Tauren off a cliff in one zone and then order the attack on Stormsong village in the next zone?
Only if all goes according to keikaku.

In all seriousness, with Activision breathing down their necks, Blizzard's staff (writers included) is DEVASTATINGLY aware that they cannot !@#$ BfA up. To do so would be the death of them.
04/16/2018 10:36 AMPosted by Samariyu
<span class="truncated">...</span>Golden and Afrasabi (who wrote stonetalon) thought his character was the growing warchief the WOW Horde needed. They wrote him as nuanced and with lots of potential.

Knaak and the game writers thought he was a generic Orc raid boss, so they wrote him as LITERALLY HITLER in every single appearance and with lots purple loot.
I've heard speculation that Afrasabi and Golden are retrying Garrosh's story with Sylvanas, but doing it thr way they'd initially intended before Cataclysm's cataclysmic failure in communication happened.


I was hoping for a "reverse Garrosh" story myself but it just seems impossible right now. It's like we are at 5.4 already.
04/16/2018 10:38 AMPosted by Kelisaria
Didn't they make up some stupid excuse, like "magic" being on the island that made everyone fight and kill each other for no reason or heightened paranoia?
There's an Order Hall mission that sends you there.
Your champions have heard of a place of endless war, where the tides of battle flow constantly. Send them to investigate further.

So I think some people interpreted this as some weird commentary on what Ashran is.
04/16/2018 10:55 AMPosted by Yaden
I was hoping for a "reverse Garrosh" story myself but it just seems impossible right now. It's like we are at 5.4 already.


Then take a moment, step back, and put into perspective exactly all that we don't know.

We're not at 5.4, we're at 4.1. The Horde is being lead by a deeply unpopular warchief with a spotted past but alot of potential to go either direction, and the Horde and Alliance are fighting with cities destroyed on both sides.
...I've heard speculation that Afrasabi and Golden are retrying Garrosh's story with Sylvanas, but doing it thr way they'd initially intended before Cataclysm's cataclysmic failure in communication happened.


I was hoping for a "reverse Garrosh" story myself but it just seems impossible right now. It's like we are at 5.4 already.
I'm waiting until BtS comes out, personally. There's no better indicator of where the story is going than narrative tone. Alpha's narrative tone is incomplete, and what's there is prone to change. But by the time BtS drops, we'll be much closer to live and have a much better indication of Blizzard's intended tone.
04/16/2018 03:19 AMPosted by Yagarr
04/15/2018 11:41 PMPosted by Ronstin
It's the insistence that everyone else ACT AND THINK EXACTLY LIKE YOU CHOOSE TO


Hyperbole.

The general concept of morality or ethical living


You're talking about honor, not general morality or ethical living. And you're saying that figures who don't adhere to this above and beyond code of yours need to die.

04/16/2018 10:31 AMPosted by Kelisaria
...

...
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Shadow_Hunter_Gar%27ant

What was that you were saying?


Nice red herring. That quote doesn't imply any form of dishonorable conduct on the part of the Horde,


Oh no? What did you characterize as dishonorable behavior in the post I responded to? Let me remind you.
using psychotic super weapons for power


What did Gar'ant talk about?
I say we take da weapon, and we be showin' dem who has da powah


I chose that example specifically for how this Shadow Hunter commander Vol'jin appointed literally echoed the words you'd chosen for describing the dishonorable behavior you claim Vol'jin would have no part of. It could have been a straight copy-paste, with a troll accent overlay.
04/16/2018 09:05 AMPosted by Arlifrex
Then what made Garrosh so bad if he fought for the Horde?


Seriously? Ummm he tried to kill a Horde faction leader, he terrorized the local populace that spoke against him, segregated factions withing Org, forced marshal law on the trolls etc etc......
I always found it odd that the forsaken were never shown having more effect on the horde. They did pioneer alchemy to new levels, you would think they would be commissioned by the warchief to solve certain problems like making medicine or potions to help in the war effort. Or be used more, at least in Vanilla, for their Magical knowledge as they knew more about magic than the rest of the horde, and still know more about light and shadow magic and possible warlockism as they let them practice in the open.

Really the forsaken had so many opportunities to be portrayed as something more than evil undead zambies to the rest of the horde, but it has never happened.
04/16/2018 08:03 PMPosted by Reallyhappy
I always found it odd that the forsaken were never shown having more effect on the horde. They did pioneer alchemy to new levels, you would think they would be commissioned by the warchief to solve certain problems like making medicine or potions to help in the war effort. Or be used more, at least in Vanilla, for their Magical knowledge as they knew more about magic than the rest of the horde, and still know more about light and shadow magic and possible warlockism as they let them practice in the open.

Really the forsaken had so many opportunities to be portrayed as something more than evil undead zambies to the rest of the horde, but it has never happened.


There are traces of what you're looking for already in game, but I can totally understanding want to see more of this from the Forsaken:

The tauren have a bond with the land, and it pains me to hear of Stonetalon's plight. But I fear that to heal the land, we must first remove the disease upon it.

Is it not fortunate, then, that the Forsaken are allied with us? They know much of disease. I believe they can aid us, and by doing so they will strengthen the trust between our people. Speak with Apothecary Zamah. She is a scholar and an emissary of the Forsaken. You will find her in the Pools of Vision below the Spirit Rise.
- Magatha

I have prepared a preliminary report of my findings regarding the Bleeding Hollow orcs. My colleague in Thrallmar, Apothecary Antonivich, will be happy to receive them. He too studies the phenomenon of fel orcs... in hopes of preventing such a tragedy from again befalling our orcish allies. Take him this report, and I will continue my study of the blood you brought me. If fortune is with us, we will isolate the cause of the fel orc affliction. - Apothecary Antonivich
04/16/2018 11:03 AMPosted by Fondant
04/16/2018 10:55 AMPosted by Yaden
I was hoping for a "reverse Garrosh" story myself but it just seems impossible right now. It's like we are at 5.4 already.


Then take a moment, step back, and put into perspective exactly all that we don't know.

We're not at 5.4, we're at 4.1. The Horde is being lead by a deeply unpopular warchief with a spotted past but alot of potential to go either direction, and the Horde and Alliance are fighting with cities destroyed on both sides.

Sylvanas isnt deeply unpopular.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum