Holy Paladin Feedback

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Redoing the thread for the Beta Forums

Tier 60

I don't think I hate Aura of Sacrifice as much as other people do. I like the trade-off between sacrificing your health (or at least the cooldown of Divine Shield) for an incredibly impactful raid cooldown. However, I will agree with other posters that both the passive and the active don't feel different enough from Devotion Aura.

I still think Aura of Mercy is fine as an option among a row of aura talents, but I'm not very excited by it. Using Aura Mastery with Mercy feels like you haven't really done much. At least in Legion we were able to provide the 15% increased healing for 8 seconds from Protection of Tyr.

Tier 75

I like the choice between Judgment of Light and Holy Avenger. I don't know how noticeable losing 15 stacks per application on top of losing Il'terendi will feel for Judgment of Light, but my guess is that this is still a comparable decision.

I feel like Holy Prism is still lackluster. I think this talent has lost a lot of its power now that Light of Dawn has such a short cooldown (compared to LoD being ~20 seconds as a Holy Power spender when Holy Prism was more prominent in Cata/MoP). I think the design of damage plus healing can work really well with other more damage-focused talents, but it just doesn't feel as impactful as other choices on this row.

[continued]
Tier 90

I'm really happy with Avenging Crusader. I liked that it synced with Holy Avenger on a 1.5 minute cooldown in a previous build, but 2 minutes seems reasonable. It's really fun to use and doesn't feel too overpowered. My only worry is how this will scale later in the expansion. We usually feel weak early and this already feels pretty strong.

I really don't like Awakening as a talent. I'm very hesitant to use any unreliable talents/trinkets/set bonuses. I've already mentioned this in the previous thread, but Divine Purpose's procs never felt like they were wasted whereas the Topless Tower procs felt too unreliable. Personally, I just really don't like this kind of design for a healer, and Maraad’s Dying Breath would make a significantly more interesting talent instead.

Tier 100

Pelinel brought up a good point in the Alpha thread that Beacon of Faith will be much less powerful than we're used to in Legion because we'll be coming off of back-to-back tiers with very powerful increases to Beacon of Light from set bonuses, so I think the change from 20% to 30% reduction on Beacon of Faith might be enough. I'm still afraid that the usefulness of having a Beacon for each tank is too good. I would probably still use Beacon of Faith on some fights even if there was a 50% reduction.

I think the value of Divine Purpose relies more on whether it feels reasonable to not take Beacon of Faith rather than on how high the proc rate of Divine Purpose is. Comparing something like Beacon of Faith and Divine Purpose seems really difficult and we probably won't have a good grasp until we're well into BFA (kind of like Faith vs. Lightbringer in Legion).

And Beacon of Virtue is still great. Please don't touch it :)
04/24/2018 03:26 PMPosted by Dreamguard
And Beacon of Virtue is still great. Please don't touch it :)

Yes this. All the +1s
Agreed. Few things I’d like to emphasize about specific talents:

1. Awakening. This talent isn’t going to be competitive with Avenging Crusader or Sanctified Wrath. There’s no reason to take it over either of them. A little extra RNG is nice and all but it’s really not going to be competitive with the other two on the row.

1a. Fixing this problem: Add something extra to awakening. One example would be: “if awakening procs while Avenging Wrath is on CD, the CD of AW is reduced by x seconds”. That way even if Awakening procs at a bad time it’ll still have a small usage rather than being completely useless (aside from dpsing with it up). Another way is to replace this talent with a talent that functions the same or similarly to Maraads Dying Breath.

2. Divine Purpose. Putting this on the beacon row is terrible. Beacon of Faith isn’t just good because of its output, it’s good because it can cover 2 targets whether that’s 1 tank and 1 dps or both tanks. It helps a ton in encounters that target a few dps with hard hitting mechanics (like chains on argus for example). It’s also useful for situations where tanks are out of range, you can beacon two squishy dps that are near you to keep them safe (on kin’garoth you do this when you go to your add). Divine purpose on its own will never compete with a talent like this unless we for some reason don’t need double beacon which would be very rare anyway. If tuning somehow allows for DP to be competitive then this becomes a non issue but I’d rather it become a non issue now through other means.

2a. Fixing this issue: There’s two ways to fix this. One is to make Divine Purpose baseline and reduce its proc chance to 15% as it was and put a new talent there maybe another that alters beacon in some way. Two is to put it in a different talent row where it can remain a competitive choice. Divine purpose provides fun proc gameplay, so moving it baseline would be a good addition to the spec. Anything but remaining on the beacon row is going to be better. I would much rather not wait until BfA to see because it’s very likely it will not compete.

3. Rule of Law: I’m not sure why this is still in our utility talent row. It’s not utility at all it’s a throughput ability. Not only does it increase the range on our beacon but it increases the range of our mastery which is very helpful 9/10 times. To put that into perspective there’s only 1 fight in ABT you don’t need it and that’s varimathras. In ToS there’s 1 maybe 2 fights you don’t need it, etc. RoL is not utility, by increasing the range of our mastery it increases our healing as well.

3a.Fixing this issue: Make it baseline. That’s the main way to fix this. It’s a tool that helps us make use of our mastery on fights that require spreading or distanced positioning. No need for it to be a talent. Make it baseline and add a utility talent to that row.

4. Holy Prism. This ability is very fun. It does damage and reflects healing back at injured targets. It also looks good. The only problem is, it doesn’t feel rewarding to press or use at a good time because it heals for so little. It’s been subpar the entirety of legion.

4a. Fixing this issue: This is primarily a tuning issue however there’s ways to make it more useful mechanically. Reducing the CD could potentially compensate for the little healing it does. However, the easiest way to fix this would be to tune it appropriately.
Another thing to keep in mind in comparing beacon of faith in beta bfa with legion is without our artifact traits none of our transferable abilities fill up a health bar anywhere close to what they are in legion. Beacons transfer raw healing so that 10 million flash of light that was a total waste on that guy missing 1 million health transferred 3.2 million to both beacons. We are going from our transferable abilities being able to fill up a whole health bar to them at their very best, and then rarely, filling up 15% of a health bar. Which means doing about 4% of a beacons health bar under the best conditions.
04/25/2018 08:51 AMPosted by Quietguy
Another thing to keep in mind in comparing beacon of faith in beta bfa with legion is without our artifact traits none of our transferable abilities fill up a health bar anywhere close to what they are in legion. Beacons transfer raw healing so that 10 million flash of light that was a total waste on that guy missing 1 million health transferred 3.2 million to both beacons. We are going from our transferable abilities being able to fill up a whole health bar to them at their very best, and then rarely, filling up 15% of a health bar. Which means doing about 4% of a beacons health bar under the best conditions.


While that is true, that’s primarily a tuning issue (losing the artifact traits). We already have an Azerite Armor trait that increases the healing of FoL when it directly heals a beacon target which slightly tips the scales in favor of BoF even more (especially on a fight like Argus or KG).

Obviously we can’t predict what other traits we will get but based on legions tier sets buffing beacon and azerite traits already doing so indirectly I can see more being added. This is why I really dislike DP being on the same row as beacons because as the expansion goes on beacons will get more healing transfer and dp will probably see little to no use.

Off topic relative to your post but either way DP will see very little use as it will only be relevant on fights where double beacon isn’t necessary which will be rare at best.
I'm happy that Avenging Crusader is now an option for us it was a fun PVP talent to use and I'm happy that Beacon of Virtue option is staying with us.

04/24/2018 10:13 PMPosted by Taeldoriàn

2. Divine Purpose. Putting this on the beacon row is terrible.


Totally agree. I rarely see the point where I am not using double beacon in ATBT, maybe on a fight like Eonar when you only have one tank to heal. I like Divine purpose but it doesn't fit well as the last teir choice for us at all unless you want to play Procadin DPS which I guess would be fine for open world but in M+/early dungeons it would be a struggle getting people topped off over using Beacon of Virtue.

04/24/2018 03:25 PMPosted by Dreamguard

Tier 60
I don't think I hate Aura of Sacrifice as much as other people do. I like the trade-off between sacrificing your health (or at least the cooldown of Divine Shield) for an incredibly impactful raid cooldown. However, I will agree with other posters that both the passive and the active don't feel different enough from Devotion Aura.

Agreed. SAC is just now a stronger Devo Aura where you spam heal yourself or bubble. What made SAC fun was how rewarding it felt when you did it right and it was punishing when it didn't land right. Yes it required a lot of co-ordination and set up to perform to its best but it was fun.
We want to keep Beacon of Faith, but also have that row be competitive. Even though we rarely do kiss/curse talents, this is a case where it's worth it to use the % transfer to balance the talent. It's also deceptively strong, because even though it looks like "30% reduction" means you get only 1.4x the usual benefit of Beacon--in reality you often cast on one of the two tanks, get the mana return consolation prize, get any set bonuses or traits that trigger, and still get 70% benefit from the other beacon. Long story short, agreed that the health of that row depends on things being able to compete with Beacon of Faith. Divine Purpose is still something we want to try on that row, as a more all-purpose talent that's not as situation-dependent as all of the Beacon variants.

Awakening may well need to be stronger. Its tuning should reflect a premium for the fact that it's uncontrolled. It's already buffed from The Topless Tower to try to better account for that; we'll keep an eye on it at least.

Holy Prism may well need to be stronger also. But, like many talents that add new damage/healing buttons, it's already getting stronger relative to its peers due to the departure of Artifacts. We'll see if that's enough on its new row.

We like Beacon of Virtue as well! Nothing planned there other than any minor tuning that may arise.
04/25/2018 06:06 PMPosted by Sigma
We like Beacon of Virtue as well! Nothing planned there other than any minor tuning that may arise.

Light be praised!
04/25/2018 06:06 PMPosted by Sigma
Divine Purpose is still something we want to try on that row, as a more all-purpose talent that's not as situation-dependent as all of the Beacon variants.


I think the biggest barrier with this is just that taking Divine Purpose has the detriment of constantly swapping beacons thus wasting gloabls. Divine Purpose has to make up for that while still being competitive in raw throughput. I like the idea of Divine Purpose being on this row, i remember a time when swapping beacons was one of, if not the most important mechanic paladins paid attention to. Having beacon baseline removed from the GCD, but keeping Faith on the GCD (or increasing mana cost of beacon to prevent gaming of beacon swaps for mana returns) could help.

04/25/2018 06:06 PMPosted by Sigma
in reality you often cast on one of the two tanks, get the mana return consolation prize, get any set bonuses or traits that trigger, and still get 70% benefit from the other beacon.


I think one thing sigma touched on and isn't mentioned often in this discussion is just that we don't know how tank damage will end up feeling, right now on Live you hardly ever cast on your beacons as we have been spoiled by set bonuses that (literally) double our beacon transfers. Without that we could need to spend more time hard casting onto tanks making Faith less effective. Or perhaps tank healing just returns to a team sport where you leave beacons on the tank and the other healers are responsible for helping your beacons as healing a beacon directly is less efficient for you and they need to make up the slack. In which case Faith will still be incredibly potent.

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Auras

I would be curious to hear your thoughts on the aura row? Right now all 3 feel pretty well the same, Devotion Aura will be probably the most potent option in all situations, Aura of Sacrifice has a niche if you have plenty of Self-Healing and Aura of Mercy is going to have trouble competing in Effective Healing with both Sac and Devo. However I am sure many players will choose it because it shows up on healing meters as the other two do not. Lets face it meters are a big factor in this game for better or for worse, and even though Devotion Aura was really strong throughout Legion it was hardly taken because of this.

I think in an ideal world i would like to see auras moved to the baseline kit and a new talent row added. Based on how similar the 3 Auras feel making the choice essentially meaningless. But I imagine that won't happen anytime soon especially at this stage of Development.

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Live-Beta

It's hard to nail down whether this is just a symptom of low gear environments on alpha/beta, and lack of Azerite Armor pieces. But playing a paladin on Live compared to Alpha/Beta has a significantly different feel. Currently on Alpha/Beta you spend a significant amount of time casting un-infused Flash's and Holy Light's. Particularly in Dungeons where Light of Dawn useage is lower. Ontop of how Holy Shock just doesn't have the impact it once did with the loss of its traits and no longer being gauranteed to Crit. Makes the class feel significantly less satisfying as a Paladin i am used to feeling the impact of each heal, you see those health bars move and it's to me what makes the class great, and a part of that has been lost.

You used to be able to choose two accelerator's in the form of Judgment of Light and Divine Purpose (or Holy Avenger) now you effectively only take one of these (Divine Purpose now creates more globals as mentioned earlier.) which I think is a big part of why it feels that way.

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I'm sure its too late already, but Maraad's Dying Breath was to me the most fun mechanic in Legion, and it is a tragedy that it is getting left behind. If that play style could be worked into BfA somehow that would make me incredibly happy.
Glad to see a response! Thanks for taking the time.

1. In terms of Divine Purpose, Pelinal raises a good point. It needs to account for not having to beacon swap nearly as often (which will save us globals and allow for us to use them on other abilities) and also be competitive with the throughput. This is a big mark to reach.

We definitely haven’t seen what tank healing is going to look like just yet which will be a large factor in what to take here, however with the addition of defensives being added to the gcd it seems like overall certain tanks will need more attention from healers which will make BoF an easy choice. However we aren’t at this point yet so can’t really talk much about it.

2. As for Awakening, it’s going to be very hard to make it competitive with the other two talents on that row. The buffs it’s recieved isn’t enough to allow it to compete and it really won’t be able to even with more buffs unless you get into extremes. Though I’m not 100% sure what could compete with the two beasts on that row, Maraads Dying breath is a popular option. Allowing it to reduce the CD of wings if it procs while wings is on cd wouldn’t be bad either. Awakening will be taken on fights with consistent healing like Varimathras which seem to be quite rare. I do like that awakening has a stacking duration but as it stands it’s main use will be for rot fights/fights with constant healing.

3. I would definitely love to hear your thoughts on our Aura Row. I’m curious to see if AoS is intended to function the way it does now (requiring our bubble as a trade off for more DR over devotion aura) and what will happen to mercy as it still doesn’t scale that well at all.
04/25/2018 06:06 PMPosted by Sigma
Awakening may well need to be stronger. Its tuning should reflect a premium for the fact that it's uncontrolled. It's already buffed from The Topless Tower to try to better account for that; we'll keep an eye on it at least.


Avenging Crusader is so incredibly strong relative to Awakening or Sanctified Wrath, as currently tuned, that there is absolutely no reason to take anything else as long as you can melee something while the big damage events are happening. Personally, I think this is due to how incredibly weak SW and Awakening are and would prefer that they be buffed rather than AC nerfed as without AC Holy Paladins simply lack tools to reverse major raid wide damage after the fact (See also rework of Aura of Sacrifice).

04/25/2018 06:06 PMPosted by Sigma
Holy Prism may well need to be stronger also. But, like many talents that add new damage/healing buttons, it's already getting stronger relative to its peers due to the departure of Artifacts. We'll see if that's enough on its new row.


With the nerf to Judgment of Light I believe that talent row to be fairly well balanced in terms of HPS. JoL still brings with it greater mana efficiency, but not so much more that the other talents won't see regular use depending on boss mechanics.
Aura of Sacrifice is too similar to Devotion, I would like to bring back an evolved form of Sanctity Aura, its passive would increase damage by 5% to allies within 10 yards. Its Mastery would increase it raid wide. This would give Holy Pallys a unique utility to increase raid damage as well as keep it competitive with Devotion and Mercy It would allow Holy Pallys to be more offensive and create synergy with Crusader's Might and Avenging Crusader. If we are wearing plate and our auras would demand us to be close we might as well use our weapons for something.

I would also like to see Holy Pallys get the consecration mechanic that prot has. When we cast consecration it should heal those that are in it, which would give Holy Pallys a much needed aoe heal while we are in range, and while we are in our own consecration our heals/damage increases. You can replace holy prism and make it a talent like prot.
04/25/2018 06:06 PMPosted by Sigma
Holy Prism may well need to be stronger also. But, like many talents that add new damage/healing buttons, it's already getting stronger relative to its peers due to the departure of Artifacts. We'll see if that's enough on its new row.


At the very least it's cool down could scale with haste, it still feels weird that it doesn't interact with haste at all.

Personally I wish it would simply replace holy shock (using Holy Shock's CD) and be on a different tier than Judgment of Light. Ideally allowing for a build that contained Crusader's Might, Judgement of Light, Holy Prism (as the Holy Shock replacement), Avenging Crusader and Divine Purpose.
Just get rid of the mastery already. Screw standing in melee
Seconding Wardline's comment. The mastery makes no sense; you get punished for not being close to your target, which isn't fun. A friend of mine who has begrudgingly played holy this expansion really hates the mastery, and finds it to be the worst iteration so far for the class. On paper, it sounded really good, but in practice, it's definitely not good. It just kind of sucks. The original mastery was pretty overpowered, and it's justified in that it was nerfed, but something else should be used as mastery.

My friend threw in a silly set of alternatives;
1. Mastery causes overhealing to provide a shield
2. Mastery increases damage done
3. Mastery reduces cooldown times
04/26/2018 05:31 AMPosted by Wardline
Just get rid of the mastery already. Screw standing in melee
This has been bothering me as well.

Our mastery is based around range from the target of our spells, and since we're wearing plate the very obvious best choice is for us to be in range of the tanks and melee DPS.

Issue with this is that we're still flagged as healers and ranged, so some mechanics that wouldn't normally hit melee drop on us and all of a sudden there's a puddle where one shouldn't be.

To mitigate this Rule of Law has essentially become a required talent choice in the Level 30 talent row and anything else is sub-optimal. If you don't believe me, WarcraftLogs will show you. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/17#metric=hps&class=Paladin&spec=Holy

Please. Change our Mastery effect OR adjust our flag or whatever so we don't get hit with abilities that should only be hitting ranged characters.

If you're looking for ideas, reverting to the old Mastery would be a good one.

Another option is the second one from Kikanu's post above.

I had an idea for a third one where overheals from the paladin are converted into a shield or whatever that redirects a percentage of damage to the paladin but figured a) that could really suck, and 2) it's very similar to Blessing of Sacrifice.
I don't think mastery needs to be removed. That being said it does have some flaws. The first being its Reliance on Rule of Law, without Rule of Law the mastery would be significantly worse, so having a talent that feels that mandatory in order to make mastery effective in certain scenarios is kind of unfortunate.

The big issue with mastery, at least in Legion was that when it was good, it was too good, it was by far our best stat on fights where you are constantly grouped up and stacked. But on fights where you were spread it was pretty bad, Rule of Law made it useable on those fights. But I don't even want to think about how it would feel without Rule of Law.

I imagine its a tricky thing to solve. It could work if you split its effectiveness somehow, if as opposed to live it read something like.

Proximity to your target causes your spells to heal for up to 20% more, in addition your beacon of light healing is increased by 6%.

That way you retain some benefit for playing around your mastery, but ensure that it provides a benefit in all scenarios, as opposed to it being incredibly weak on certain encounters or if not played around properly. Would also serve as a pseudo nerf to Rule of Law which is essentially a throughput spell competing with Defensives/Mobility.
I also don't think the mastery needs to be changed. To me it's an enjoyable meta working out how to get the most out of it and I like standing in melee.

04/26/2018 02:40 PMPosted by Immanis
Issue with this is that we're still flagged as healers and ranged, so some mechanics that wouldn't normally hit melee drop on us and all of a sudden there's a puddle where one shouldn't be.

I haven't had much opportunity to play holy in the beta but has our being flagged as melee changed? In Legion we are definitely not flagged as ranged and there is no downside to standing in melee.

Our mastery does feel enormously punishing though on fights where spread is mandatory. I'd be happy to see some changes so that I still felt effective on spread fights.
One change I’d like to see for mastery is Rule of Law becoming baseline. It’s a tool that we’re given that is necessary to make our mastery work on a lot of fights. Putting it elsewhere on the talent tree will not work and where it is now makes the entire talent row useless as we have to take Rule of Law to make the mastery function at an appropriate level.

Another way to solve the issue of our mastery is to add another component to it. “Proximity to your target causes you to heal them for 20% more. In addition, whenever you heal a target near you, you gain increased healing for x seconds”. You can substitute increased healing for other things like increased critical strike chance for x seconds as well if increased healing is too powerful.

I like our mastery and don’t want to see it removed. However it does have a pretty big flaw which makes taking a specific talent mandatory. I think that should be addressed either by making that talent baseline or adding another component to our mastery making it more valuable without Rule of Law.

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