Holy Paladin Feedback

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06/09/2018 04:08 PMPosted by Sstaalsy
06/09/2018 03:36 PMPosted by Gwynnevere
Nothing huge to add to this thread other than...

Why haven’t Holy Paladins got back a buff back (party, raid, self)? I always enjoyed giving buffs out, even back in the day when we had to buy reagents for them.

Was really looking forward to getting one back in BfA :(


Our passive aura is in effect a party/raid/self buff


I want to be the one that delves out buffs myself. Passive is passé and boring, non-engaging.
06/09/2018 04:08 PMPosted by Sstaalsy
Our passive aura is in effect a party/raid/self buff


That is an interesting perspective. They kind of are.

So like fortitude buffs everyone's health by 10% devotion aura could reduce everyone's damage by 10%. It's really not a bad idea.
06/09/2018 04:24 PMPosted by Quietguy
06/09/2018 04:08 PMPosted by Sstaalsy
Our passive aura is in effect a party/raid/self buff


That is an interesting perspective. They kind of are.

So like fortitude buffs everyone's health by 10% devotion aura could reduce everyone's damage by 10%. It's really not a bad idea.

Wouldn't mind having all classes bringing raid-wide buffs back, not sure why only some were added.. Would have to be like 2% reduction not 10% but sure I kind of like the idea of every class buffing the Raid. Tbh they'd probably just bring the old Blessing of Kings back if they were to do that..
Does anyone else think Aura of Mercy healing is unusually low? The passive is only about a quarter of 1% every 2 seconds. During Aura Mastery it's half a percent every 2 seconds. That's 1.5% of a person's health for the Whole duration of Aura Mastery. Do you think maybe they are planning on replacing it?
06/09/2018 08:03 PMPosted by Quietguy
Does anyone else think Aura of Mercy healing is unusually low? The passive is only about a quarter of 1% every 2 seconds. During Aura Mastery it's half a percent every 2 seconds. That's 1.5% of a person's health for the Whole duration of Aura Mastery. Do you think maybe they are planning on replacing it?


It was never great healing in the first place. You'd really only take Mercy during the start of Legion to pad meters. If you only had two choices right now on live, between mercy and devotion, you would always take devotion. Mercy with Aura Mastery scales horribly with group size, worthless in 5 man, and unless you're a 25-30 man raid group didn't do meaningful healing as a cooldown to save peoples lives.

People keep saying wait for the tuning pass for healers, and I'm guessing that's what we'll have to do for Mercy and that talent row too. Mercy with Aura Mastery probably needs a target limit and smart healing AND a massive bump in numbers to make it good for all group sizes, or somehow scale with small and large groups.
06/09/2018 04:14 PMPosted by Gwynnevere
06/09/2018 04:08 PMPosted by Sstaalsy
...

Our passive aura is in effect a party/raid/self buff


I want to be the one that delves out buffs myself. Passive is passé and boring, non-engaging.

I'd love to know how you think it is more engaging to apply a raid-wide buff before combat and forget about it than it is to have a limited range aura in combat that depends dynamically on your positioning vs. other players.

Go on, I'll wait.
I really, really want to believe that there’s this huge swath of holy pally changes that are going to address auras and IoL and the horrible slow HL spamming game play, and the only reason blizz hasn’t told us about it is because it’s so awesome they want it 100% perfect so as to blow our minds...just let me dream a little longer guys :(
Yeah me too. Everything feels pretty poor but what gives me hope are the truly terrible things. Like Aura of Mercy isn't even an option and it hasn't even been addressed. So maybe that means they are working on a fix/replacement.

Outside of that for me. I want to do Judgment of Light/Divine Purpose/Avenging Crusader/Crusader's Might just for all the instants. I love running around casting stuff. Unfortunately it's a big hps loss in BFA. Dreamguard probably can figure out exactly how much but enough to not be allowed in high end raiding.

Right now the optimal rotation is going to be something like HS on CD and then a lot of Holy Lights with Flash of Lights when your mana can sustain it. Light of Dawn when you can heal at least 4 people and Bestow Faith when it's not overheal. Which for me isn't a lot of fun.

I probably won't play it in bfa but i didn't in WoD either and by the end of the xpac I was back to it so who knows.
06/10/2018 06:39 AMPosted by Quietguy
Outside of that for me. I want to do Judgment of Light/Divine Purpose/Avenging Crusader/Crusader's Might just for all the instants. I love running around casting stuff. Unfortunately it's a big hps loss in BFA. Dreamguard probably can figure out exactly how much but enough to not be allowed in high end raiding.


I don't maintain the Holy Paladin spreadsheet anymore. Adamselene and Rhyno from the Discord server do that now, but I have tried out that exact combination of talents in a full-guild run when normal Uldir was open for testing, and it felt fine. I'm not really sure whether the HPS can compete with other talents though.

Edit: I think this sounds more like I was saying that I thought it wouldn't compete with other talents when what I really meant was that I honestly don't know.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wJYtQ6Lqj2NV8nvk (I used all of those talents on Taloc, Mother, and Fetid Devourer)

Divine Purpose versus Beacon of Light (or even Beacon of Virtue) is the hardest to evaluate because the downsides are hard to quantify. Having to be mindful of who was currently tanking and spending globals on swapping Beacons didn't feel as bad as I had expected, but it was also slightly easier content than I'm used to, so I wasn't having to concentrate on as many other things.

I do think that Crusader's Might is going to be best talent for people who dislike having to use Holy Light often. It makes everything feel much faster by adding Crusader Strike and using Holy Shock and Light of Dawn more often as well as being more efficient, so you can use Flash of Light more often.
06/10/2018 05:45 AMPosted by Delekii
06/09/2018 04:14 PMPosted by Gwynnevere
...

I want to be the one that delves out buffs myself. Passive is passé and boring, non-engaging.

I'd love to know how you think it is more engaging to apply a raid-wide buff before combat and forget about it than it is to have a limited range aura in combat that depends dynamically on your positioning vs. other players.

Go on, I'll wait.


I find it more engaging to be responsible for maintaining buffs myself, making sure to reapply before they expire. Apparently you don’t and that’s fine. To each their own. Not here to argue with you or anyone, just voicing my opinion like others.
DP will have a place on niche fights like Mother. Might only be used on 1-2 fights a tier or however many follow the same format.

I used DP on all difficulties for Mother testing and it worked great. Only 1 tank takes damage at a time and usually 1 also crosses over leaving you with the other tank so BoF isn’t really that useful here. The only time I’d take BoF over DP on mother is if I’m the first healer crossing over for some reason.

However on any other fight (aside from maybe Taloc) id take BoF. At least DP will have a niche use though. Unless you’re willing to put more effort in for a similar result (although hard to tell as DP is RNG) BoF will still reign supreme for a majority of fights. This isn’t bad though.

CM definitely pushes you away from HL spam. It adds CS to your “rotation” which allows you to use both HS/LOD more often and as Dream said already it’s more efficient meaning you can fill with FoL if needed.

There are definitely some things that can be improved for Hpal. Mechanically we feel somewhat empty and we don’t really have any fun interactions between abilities aside from IoL. We also have some talents that need work (AoS and Awakening specifically) so I’d like to see improvements in those areas. Maybe too late for mechanical additions but the talents should still be fixed or replaced.
Two examples of additional mechanics and interaction I’d like to see would be:

1. After using Infusion of Light, your next holy shock or Light of dawn has x% increased healing.

Or

2. After using Infusion of Light, your next Holy Shock or Light of Dawn will heal an additional x targets (2 maybe 3). Kind of reminiscent of Daybreak.

This brings LoD into the IoL interaction and allows for a choice between increased HS healing or increased LOD healing. Ofc you’d use them based on the current outgoing damage but it’s still a decision to make.
I still feel that Crit chance needs to be adjusted to holy shock to make the rotation fun again. Having to rely on rng to determine if you will wipe or not does not lend it self to higher end content. Paladin does not feel good in current state to me with this rotation and the lack of infusion of light (IOL) procs. I agree with many comments on the European forums that shaman spells give 100% proc chance of tidal waves why cant paladin have the same thing for infusion of light (IOL).

Aura Mastery why reduce to 6 seconds??? Other healers still have 8 second duration cool downs.

Mercy: used for newer healers. Basically a far left talent, a set and forget kind of thing. Needs a buff of some sort when aura mastery is used such as aura mastery increase the healing 300-400% And even more when not in a raid group.
Devo: Used for 5 man content and differnt situations in raid.
Aura of Sacrifice: Used for raid, its current state needs a rework, just revert to legion style Aura of sacrifice. Do a numbers adjustment on this spell to make it inline with all other major healing cool downs. Decrease the throughput and call it good.

Level 90 Talent: Maraad's Dying Breath as a talent to replace awaking, this gives the healer more options on how they want to heal. More ability to control healing instead of relaying on rng.

An overall numbers adjustment needs to be done because its hard to top off a 5 man party in dungeon, I am currently sitting at 331 ILvL in beta. Pretty much non stop Flash of Light spam which causes you to drink on every pack, if you don't have any cds you pretty much cant heal trash packs. I also use double on-use trinkets just so i can have more control of my character on beta.

I was praying that i got beta but in current state paladin does not feel good, feels like a downgrade for me not an expansion that is suppose to improve and expand upon my experience. Don't know if i will play as much as i did in legion, expansion looks good has some cool new dungeons and mechanics but its a half done expansion compared to legion.

Rushed out the door with not as much content. Necklace is such a slap in the face compared to when we did our questlines to obtain our artifact weapon since each one was unique for class/spec.
I mean I understand the motive behind IoL having a lower proc chance. If our sustained healing is higher we don't rely on wings and IoL procs as much. the only thing is currently our sustained healing is so bad that we have nothing to rely on besides wings and IoL procs.

I really think its hard to pass judgment here on the current build until we get a numbers buff. If our current sustained healing on beta is where the devs want it, then we need to start having a discussion about current design.

I'm much more worried about melee wings becoming a dead talent in BFA then awakening atm. Again, in raids if all we have to do to top heal is 3 buttons and not even have to target anyone. Thats broken. If you can complete your weekly 15 as a mediocre skilled healer in this same fashion without any effort, thats broken.

I know I have a flare for the dramatic, but this talent will be the #1 complained about talent in MDI if it is too powerful as it doesnt require the healer to pay attention to its team just help dps and burn the thing thats killing them even faster. When this happens at the upper level it snowballs down to the the semi-hardcore and then casual guilds. Eventually the whole player base will be under the mindset to want this ability nerfed or to take advantage of gearing a healer for free until this ability is nerfed. This talent is a magnet for toxicity from the community.

Also, I know judgment of light talent has been nerfed in bfa but I feel like its just had its time. Unless we get something in BFA like silvermoon ring, this ability is not going to feel fun or rewarding in anyway. Silvermoon ring is what made this judgment uptime pretty fun to work into raid rotation.

I would really like to see bestow faith changed. I feel like it should be rewarded for knowing when incoming damage is coming in a way different way. It should work similiarly to frenzied regeneration for guardian druids in legion. Except you cast it on others. I really feel like if I had bestow faith heal the tank for x damage taken in last 5 seconds or next 5 seconds then turn it into a ticking hot would be a lot more rewarding gameplay. Even if cd was increased to 15-30s I would appreciate this change.

Rule of Law feels so strong in HPS in dungeons rn for me that it feels mandatory. Maybe its just because mastery is low and it makes my mastery feel valued when I cast it. I really feel like this should be baseline though.

Overall, just looking forward to some numbers tuning coming in so we can further address these worries people are validly bringing up.
I feel very restricted by race choice as a horde paladin. I would love to have at least one allied race option for horde paladins in BFA.
Crusader Strike was reduced. I'm assuming its to balance Avenging Crusader. For quite awhile now the consensus has been Avenging Crusader was too strong so this was expected. But I'm not seeing anything addressed about us being too weak outside of Avenging Crusader.

Holy Shock heals are very low for a heal with a short CD. This used to be because of the high crit chance. But though the crit chance has been greatly reduced and the benefit from when it does crit has been reduced the base heal is still very low.

Flash of Light's mana cost is unusually high. Even if you take Faith and both beacons do their full healing or heal one of the beacons and get the mana reduction the HPM on FoL is lower than any other healers' base heal. This forces us into casting more slow heals than any other healer to conserve mana.

I just don't understand what the plan is. Any insight would be appreciated.
I love the balance that has been done to Holy Light and Flash of Light. It allows the player to make a decision on the best spell for the situation. Almost every healing spell has a distinct and meaningful reason to cast.

Light of the Martyr does not feel good to cast. The spell had a nice Kiss/Curse type of mechanic in legion. It was a strong instant cast spell to be used during movement. In BFA With the loss of the legendary, artifact trait and talent the curse portion of LotM just feels too drastic.

Since Light of the Martyr does not affect Beacon targets its healing priority is low. Add the 50% damage portion and you end up with a spell that has little value. Please don't try to make the spell usable through Azorite traits.

Light of the Martyr desperately needs baseline either Fervent Martyr (reduced damage taken and mana stacking) or Maraad's Dying Breath (Healing with Light of Dawn causes LotM to heal Beacon target).
So I went ahead and tested some m+. Comparatively to the start of legion when m+ came out (few weeks after the start) it felt a fair bit worse. I don’t really remember feeling this weak at the start of any of the recent expansions. Could be wrong but I don’t remember.

Regardless, it’s not great. Barely being able to keep people alive during BoV is insane and our strongest form of healing currently is on a 2 Min cd (AC). Outside of that even if i spam FoL with BoV up I can barely keep people alive.

Now I’m not the best player so I went ahead and checked with a few other Holy pally mains who were testing m+ as well and are definitely better than me. I got the exact same feedback from them. We feel very weak in m+ largely due to our reliable heals being very weak and our non reliable heals being quite decent (IoL FoL).

To be fair this also translates to raid testing where outside of AC our heals really aren’t that impactful especially if you don’t take Crusaders Might to get more HS which hopefully gives you more IoL for actual decent heals as well as more efficiency so you can focus on FoL filler rather than HL filler.

This is just my feedback from my experience in m+ since we’re asked to relay information from our testing. Overall, not a very good experience as Hpal. This is obviously just a tuning issue and I’m not saying every heal we have needs to be as strong as it was in legion but right now we feel kinda weak even in the not-so overtuned dungeons.

To clarify, by weak I mean healing wise. Even though our defensive kit was nerfed it’s still great for m+ So overall I’d say that we’re decent but the healing is on the lower end.

Edit: Also, I could easily be skewering the line between overtuned dungeons and Hpal feeling slightly undertuned. The damage going out in most 5-6 keys felt a bit crazy. So I’m really unsure if it’s a case of overtuned dungeons or Hpal feeling kind of weak.
Secondaries aren't increasing as fast as they did at the start of Legion.
Before even the first raid tier in Legion we were able to get near crit cap. That along with shock treatment made Holy Shock a very big heal.
Holy Shock now crits only about half the time and even when it does, not having shock treatment, its not a very big heal.

Flash of Light was stronger because of the legendary but also because IoL was almost guaranteed giving us a 50% stronger Flash of Light.
Now IoL only procs about half the time and for only 40% stronger Flash of Light which is already pretty weak without the Legendary.

Those two are the biggest factors in reducing our single target healing which is what fed Beacon of Virtue into a huge plus.

Beacon of Virtue is still a great tool but now its more of a moderate aoe heal instead of being able to get everyone topped off rather quickly.
So now that tuning is the main focus id like to point out some issues:

1. AC is a bit too powerful. It should be nerfed to keep it in line with SW. Its dominating in almost every situation atm and its usually our best or second best heal if used appropriately. Needs to be on par with SW at the very least. Buff SW or nerf ac slightly and buff SW after so it competes and they both remain strong choices.

2. Some of our main spells don’t feel impactful, they just feel weak. Holy light heals for 14k in a raid environment (raid testing) and health pools are anywhere from 80-120k+. This makes holy light feel very insignificant especially when paired with such a long cast time. FoL also feels fairly weak so increasing the mana cost as well as the heal would be great imo. If our main job is spot healing then our single target heals shouldn’t feel so weak. They don’t need to be crazy but currently they both heal for very little. Holy shock is also weak outside of critting but this makes the crits feel better once you get one so not much to say about it.

Those are my main concerns with the spec atm. Healing needs to be pushed away from AC a bit and head towards some of our weaker baseline heals. Talent rows need some fixing (Sanctified Wrath/Avenging Crusader/awakenings row and the aura row specifically).

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