Holy Paladin Feedback

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06/29/2018 12:35 AMPosted by Zenetta
I said nothing specific about the actual numbers balance at all and did not ask for a buff at all let alone a very large one. You're trying to argue against a mechanical concept using random assumptions about numbers tuning. I care about the mechanic and the playstyle, the numbers will be tuned to whatever it is they need to be tuned to.


Asking for the Chaos Bolt change to Holy Shock without any other context is asking for a buff. I was trying to explain that a mechanical change to Holy Shock would mean a mechanical change somewhere else as a result. It's important to understand the consequences of suggestions you make.

Reliability can just be a QoL buff/playstyle element and doesn't have to be an average HPS buff at all. Adjusting it so it did the same average HPS if balance were currently tuned perfectly would be fine. You claimed before that it would have to be lowered. It would not and that doesn't even make sense if you pretended that current balance were exactly where balance needed to be (which probably isn't realistic). Reliability doesn't mean the average output has to be lowered. You're assuming that it's overtuned because it's unreliable currently when it would make more sense for it to be tuned around its average output already.


Reliability has some intrinsic value that usually isn't reflected in HPS. If you could choose between a spell that does 150% SP every time but can't crit versus an ability that is 100% SP with 50% crit (meaning an average of 150% SP), you would always choose the 150% SP ability that never crits. The fact that you're asking for this change is also proof that reliability holds extra value.

04/25/2018 06:06 PMPosted by Sigma
Awakening may well need to be stronger. Its tuning should reflect a premium for the fact that it's uncontrolled.


Sigma's quote here expresses the design philosophy that abilities that aren't as reliable are usually a little stronger than they otherwise would be.

Infusion could be adjusted to have the same relative power as it would when it was unreliable as well (should be an easy adjustment for the flash part, not sure it matters if they change the holy light part at all if the GCD is unaffected).


Like I mentioned in my post, adjusting Flash of Light's buff from Infusion of Light would make it only slightly more than a normal Holy Light. If you don't want to change anything for Holy Light's buff, then Holy Light is almost always going to be the better choice to use Infusion of Light on. And again, that's just a pure buff to IoL-buffed Holy Lights due to casting almost twice as many. Something has to be nerfed there.

Changing the mechanic isn't a very complex balancing issue at all. It's more of a question of whether it's more fun/desirable and I would argue that the majority of paladins would prefer a reliable mechanic, which was already demonstrated/proven by almost two years of gearing choices in Legion.


It absolutely is a complex balancing issue -- this is literally the point of my first post. Making the change without any other adjustments would be a huge buff and making the appropriate nerfs to keep our overall throughput the same would make Holy Shock and Infusion of Light much less potent and more bland as a result.

The change you're asking for would likely lead to Holy Shocks that are only slightly more powerful than non-crit Holy Shocks right now and much weaker buffs from Infusion of Light that would make the entire interaction feel less impactful. To me, that sounds even more boring.
I think the issue is then, one that requires much more changes mechanics wise to our overall kit.

Maybe the issue isn't with crit proccing with holy shock, but a lack of other base healing spells that have a cooldown that could trigger IoL.

We effectively have one spell that requires us to stack crit, and it somewhat pigeonholes us into stacking that stat, even though nothing else from our kit synergizes with crit, except holy shock. It's just basic crit scaling like every other class in the game.

Our gearing and procs are dead simple compared to virtually any of the other healers, and that is a huge shame. Playing a holy paladin isn't a hard, you can get the basics down in a dungeon or two. Our toolkit is dead simple. And I think that's the issue. Blizzard needs to complicate holy paladins more, while keeping them as balanced as the rest of the healers, while not feeling like it's a nerf to current playing paladins.

Changing crit rates and spell co-efficients aren't going to solve the BFA holy paladin problems.
06/29/2018 02:59 AMPosted by Dreamguard
It absolutely is a complex balancing issue -- this is literally the point of my first post. Making the change without any other adjustments would be a huge buff and making the appropriate nerfs to keep our overall throughput the same would make Holy Shock and Infusion of Light much less potent and more bland as a result.


Then I guess they should have left it reliable instead of adding in the complexity of completely changing gears after two years and making it less reliable and RNGtastic. They wouldn't have had to do as much.

Again, we just had almost 2 years of very large, reliable holy shock + infusion.

06/29/2018 02:59 AMPosted by Dreamguard
The change you're asking for would likely lead to Holy Shocks that are only slightly more powerful than non-crit Holy Shocks right now and much weaker buffs from Infusion of Light that would make the entire interaction feel less impactful. To me, that sounds even more boring.


We. Just. Had. Large. Reliable. Holy. Shock. For. Almost. Two. Years.

They were able to have this in their kit for almost two years and you're convinced it wouldn't work after it worked for almost two years. You insist it would have to be weak and small when we just had a large reliable holy shock for almost two years + a nice infusion proc.

The chaos bolt version would be smaller if you didn't get much crit and stacked say haste over crit for smaller faster cooldown holy shocks. If you stacked crit, instead of the RNG scaling up, the size of the heal would scale up. Slower cooldown, back to more Legionesque large crits. The change opens up options but gives you reliability baseline. It gives people what they liked most about Legion holy shock while not pigeonholing you into one secondary stat.
06/29/2018 12:49 PMPosted by Zenetta
We. Just. Had. Large. Reliable. Holy. Shock. For. Almost. Two. Years.

They were able to have this in their kit for almost two years and you're convinced it wouldn't work after it worked for almost two years. You insist it would have to be weak and small when we just had a large reliable holy shock for almost two years + a nice infusion proc.


I don't know how to distill this information any more simply than what I've already stated. The change you're suggesting is an almost 25% buff to our overall healing. That's bonkers. It's even more of a drastic change with Crusader's Might and Divine Purpose.

The premise of this suggestion has always been with the guise of improving quality of life when it would actually be a huge buff. That buff would have to be balanced somewhere else. So, yes, something in our kit would have to be much weaker and smaller to offset the enormous buffs.

It worked in Legion because it was *mostly* balanced around the rest of our heals and other healer's toolkits; however, our healing isn't balanced around that same reliability in BFA. It's a completely reasonable opinion to want to have the reliability back, but it's going to have consequences somewhere else. You can't have it both ways.
06/29/2018 02:46 PMPosted by Dreamguard
The change you're suggesting is an almost 25% buff to our overall healing.


I never said they should make change X without touching anything else, that's just some weird assumption you made.

06/29/2018 02:46 PMPosted by Dreamguard
I don't know how to distill this information any more simply than what I've already stated.


I understood what you said, I think you're wrong.
I never said they should make change X without touching anything else, that's just some weird assumption you made.


You're right. I'm sorry. You never elaborated on what else you would want to change, so I assumed you weren't fully aware of how balancing this change would actually affect the rest of our healing.

I inferred that you thought we could have both without any consequences from this quote:

06/29/2018 12:49 PMPosted by Zenetta
You insist it would have to be weak and small when we just had a large reliable holy shock for almost two years + a nice infusion proc.


06/29/2018 03:28 PMPosted by Zenetta
I understood what you said, I think you're wrong.


About which part? If you wanted to make the Chaos Bolt change to Holy Shock, how would you balance it?
Considering the guild Method just ranked Holy Paladins as the worst healer for raiding in Battle for Azeroth, and we currently have the worst HPS out of all healers on Beta, if a Chaos Bolt Holy Shock is a buff, we need it.

We basically had 100% crit Holy Shocks throughout Legion and it was never a problem. I don't see why we can't have it again going forward in the form of Chaos Bolt.

Infusion of Light is just Thunder Focus Tea, if Monks can get guaranteed empowered spells every 30 seconds i don't see why Holy Paladins can't have guaranteed empowered spells every 9 seconds. Add Light of Dawn and Light of the Martyr as options to Infusion of Light, make it slightly more interesting.
06/29/2018 03:47 PMPosted by Dreamguard
About which part? If you wanted to make the Chaos Bolt change to Holy Shock, how would you balance it?


Well I disagree with the idea that the RNG version is more fun, which I believe was what you originally pointed out way back when it was first brought up (which is obviously subjective and a matter of preference and not something anyone could prove either way). The main feedback is about the playstyle and mechanics, which I find boring since we lost a lot and didn't get much in exchange. I think many people have expressed that this spec and many others feel empty or lackluster after the changes/losses from Legion.

I think you're right in the sense that numbers would have to be adjusted in some way if current balance was about right, but I don't agree that they would have to be lower on average because it was reliable, which is something you argued.

If you assume that balance in beta is currently perfectly tuned numbers wise, which it likely is not, you could easily adjust the values of holy shock itself to be identical in average HPS (you had claimed it would have to be balanced to be lower than the current average, which wouldn't make sense if you assumed current balance was perfect as I would expect they balance around the average anyway and not around you being lucky or unlucky). If you wanted the same average HPS, you'd have to keep the average exactly the same as it is now (the actual number and cooldown changing with your secondary stats, but the average output could be the same if that's numerically where they wanted your output to be).

I do realize based on the current numbers it may not really be as large in terms of how much you can heal for in one shock in Legion compared to someone's total HP (especially since we've also lost other modifiers to shock that we had in Legion), but it wouldn't be "small" compared to the rest of the kit.

Infusion is weird because they changed the ratio between flash/light/shock in BfA compared to Legion. I'm also not sure how to decide the exact value, but it could easily be adjusted to whatever they felt was right if they wanted the proc to do what it currently does.

Alternatively, another option would be to just have one effect. IE: you could make flash of light instant with infusion, which would have no impact on theoretical max HPS except on the move since it would heal for the same on the same GCD. Instead it would just be a utility proc letting you cast something else on the move or let you cast it faster. They could then just throw in whatever extra HPS was needed to re-balance your overall output into holy shock itself (further distinguishing it as a larger burst heal on a CD). Or you could have instant flash to fulfill the faster heal portion of the current design of having a faster and larger option and then reduce holy lights cast time by whatever as the higher HPS option (I think that's actually how it worked in some past expansion).

I could also see them reducing the value of holy light or something in order to further increase the value of shock if they wanted it to be even bigger, not unlike a holy priests balance between serenity and heal/flash. I don't think they'd have to do that, but you could go further and tune other things down to make shock even larger if you wanted to.
06/29/2018 05:23 PMPosted by Zenetta
I think you're right in the sense that numbers would have to be adjusted in some way if current balance was about right, but I don't agree that they would have to be lower on average because it was reliable, which is something you argued.

If you assume that balance in beta is currently perfectly tuned numbers wise, which it likely is not, you could easily adjust the values of holy shock itself to be identical in average HPS (you had claimed it would have to be balanced to be lower than the current average, which wouldn't make sense if you assumed current balance was perfect as I would expect they balance around the average anyway and not around you being lucky or unlucky). If you wanted the same average HPS, you'd have to keep the average exactly the same as it is now (the actual number and cooldown changing with your secondary stats, but the average output could be the same if that's numerically where they wanted your output to be).


Reliability clearly has some intangible positive value; you wouldn't be asking for this change if it didn't. The philosophy about Awakening I quoted from Sigma in an earlier post shows that unreliable spells tend to have higher values specifically because they aren't as reliable.

Also, it's not as simple as choosing a number to make Holy Shock's output be the exact same. The Chaos Bolt Holy Shock would scale better with crit than the current Holy Shock. For any coefficient you choose to make the average outputs the same, the new Holy Shock would be weaker with less crit than the old Holy Shock and stronger with more crit.

Which value do you choose and why?

Infusion is weird because they changed the ratio between flash/light/shock in BfA compared to Legion. I'm also not sure how to decide the exact value, but it could easily be adjusted to whatever they felt was right if they wanted the proc to do what it currently does.


Again, this isn't exactly that simple. Infusion of Light procs scale with crit, so any value you choose for the new Infusion of Light would be stronger at lower values of crit and weaker at higher values. Which value is right?

Alternatively, another option would be to just have one effect. IE: you could make flash of light instant with infusion, which would have no impact on theoretical max HPS except on the move since it would heal for the same on the same GCD. Instead it would just be a utility proc letting you cast something else on the move or let you cast it faster. They could then just throw in whatever extra HPS was needed to re-balance your overall output into holy shock itself (further distinguishing it as a larger burst heal on a CD).


That change would make Infusion of Light completely irrelevant outside of movement, and it would be encroaching on the purpose of Light of the Martyr. What's the point of having a reliable buff if you don't need it regularly?

What's the value of "whatever extra HPS was needed" that's put back into Holy Shock if Infusion of Light has no value for HPS? Does the increase to Holy Shock make Crusader's Might, Holy Avenger, Sanctified Wrath, or Divine Purpose too powerful?

Or you could have instant flash to fulfill the faster heal portion of the current design of having a faster and larger option and then reduce holy lights cast time by whatever as the higher HPS option (I think that's actually how it worked in some past expansion).


Then IoL-buffed Holy Light would be higher HPS and higher HPM, so we would very rarely make the choice of using Flash of Light -- probably about as often as we need to use Light of the Martyr during movement.

I could also see them reducing the value of holy light or something in order to further increase the value of shock if they wanted it to be even bigger, not unlike a holy priests balance between serenity and heal/flash. I don't think they'd have to do that, but you could go further and tune other things down to make shock even larger if you wanted to.


What are the values for Holy Light and Holy Shock and how does that affect the balance of Crusader's Might, Holy Avenger, Sanctified Wrath, and Divine Purpose?

All of these changes are vague and seemingly not very well thought out because they have no context for what they would actually do to our overall balance. It's not as simple as saying, "the rest will be adjusted to match our current HPS". Small changes have cascading effects, and I think it's fair that you show you understand those effects.
It worked in Legion, end of story really. I don't know why you are making this seem far more complicated than it is.

Do you have a better solution?
I think It's too late to hope these kind of changes will be made. Good ideas that have been around for late alpha and all of beta. There was a lot of concern because of the late tuning pass on holy paladins but now that it has been done we can see the pally design was pretty locked in early alpha. I was happy to see the small performance/numbers tweaks recently and I'm sure we will see further numbers tweaks all the way up to mythic week. But outside that I don't see any other changes coming.
With the new Purge for DH and BE racial change, melees will be pain in the ... now for Holy Paladins, cause oir alternative „melee wings“ now has doubled CD.

Im a bit worried without that much crit on holy shock and therefore less proc chance for holy light combined with a purgeble bob, that holy pala pvp life will be a hard one.
... Which value do you choose and why?


Looking at the numbers at ~366 ilvl it's not like we're talking about that big of a shock even keeping the average the same. It does like 30 someK at that ilvl as a crit, so it would do less at that gear level keeping the average the same. It's already doing less than 30% of someone's HP, even lower of a tank and would then be less than that at a 26% crit chance which was as high as I could get it with glad sanctum vendor gear at that ilvl with crit on every piece but one trinket.

It would hopefully scale up to be a more impressive burst heal as the expansion continued since they're starting with much lower secondary stat values this time around. It wouldn't scale better, it would scale to the exact same average value if that's what it needed to be left at. It would just be reliable so you knew exactly what you were about to get.

All of these changes are vague and seemingly not very well thought out because they have no context...


That's because I don't feel the need to do the math to prove anything numerically since the primary feedback is about the mechanic and playstyle not the exact numbers. The BfA playstyle is anemic and boring compared to Legion. Make it less boring and make the numbers work. That's their job.

That change would make Infusion of Light completely irrelevant outside of movement...


Not completely, if someone was very low on health and you wanted to heal them ASAP before they get hit again it's occasionally relevant if they may have been hit and die faster than you could finish casting. Granted that would be extremely rare that the timing happened to work out that way.

It would also be better than LotM (but on a CD) if you didn't want to injure yourself or if you needed to heal yourself on the move since you can't cast LotM on yourself.

06/30/2018 02:07 AMPosted by Dreamguard
What's the value of "whatever extra HPS was needed" that's put back into Holy Shock if Infusion of Light has no value for HPS?


The value is what I stated, to bring the HPS back up if it needed to be brought back up. It changes the value of infusion to utility from an HPS increase. If it made any of those talents too powerful, unlikely in the case of Divine Purpose since hardly anyone wants to take it over beacons anyway, they could just not do that.

Then IoL-buffed Holy Light would be higher HPS and higher HPM, so we would very rarely make the choice of using Flash of Light…


I don't really see that as a huge problem. Do you make a choice between flash and holy light perfectly equally now or at any other time in paladin history? The choice has usually been larger heal or faster heal. Often times one was just a better choice than the other more often then not.

They could add an additional mana cost reduction effect to flash so that light was just about HPS and the flash was cheaper faster and smaller if that made it a more compelling choice.

06/30/2018 05:46 AMPosted by Quietguy
I think It's too late to hope these kind of changes will be made.


Unfortunately I agree based on what they've said in interviews (but feel free to prove me wrong Blizzard). This would probably be considered a bigger change. I do think a lot of people will find holy paladin as well as many other specs boring and empty designs compared to Legion as many have already stated.

Azerite traits from what we've seen so far are both mechanically and numerically lackluster as well.

06/30/2018 07:31 AMPosted by Drukhi
Im a bit worried without that much crit on holy shock and therefore less proc chance for holy light combined with a purgeble bob, that holy pala pvp life will be a hard one.


PvP is another good point against unreliable holy shock. In instanced Legion PvP you can not get a reliable holy shock because you have no control over your crit. It makes it feel RNGtastic and terrible compared to PvE. This is exaggerated further by the increased multiplier in Legion so that when it doesn't crit it's that much smaller. A crit vs. non-crit can easily be the difference between life and death.

While crit RNG is obviously just a part of the game and any spell, I think the chaos bolt treatment makes sense for shock since, like chaos bolt, it's a spell revolving around crit. In the past when shock was unreliable it usually had some additional purpose outside of very early WoW (you cast it on CD for holy power even if it didn't always crit for the several years we had hopo).
While it's too much to hope for any major changes, I would at the very least LOVE for some two-handed weapon options for Holy Paladins.

Having played the beta and combed through the database on WoWHead, there are no late-game or epic two-handed weapons for healers who aren't able to wield staves.

I know there are much more desirable and needed changes but that's at least my one wish. :)
06/30/2018 10:34 AMPosted by Zenetta
... Which value do you choose and why?


It would hopefully scale up to be a more impressive burst heal as the expansion continued since they're starting with much lower secondary stat values this time around. It wouldn't scale better, it would scale to the exact same average value if that's what it needed to be left at. It would just be reliable so you knew exactly what you were about to get.


Scale to the exact same average value at what crit rating? They scale differently, so you'd have to make a choice about which point of the expansion (re: crit rating) the average values would intersect. This is a completely trivial argument, but the larger point is that the developers have to make that choice and you haven't really factored it into your decision at all.

That's because I don't feel the need to do the math to prove anything numerically since the primary feedback is about the mechanic and playstyle not the exact numbers. The BfA playstyle is anemic and boring compared to Legion. Make it less boring and make the numbers work. That's their job.


But those exact numbers do matter. It's easy to make a suggestion from blissful ignorance where you don't care about the numbers, but the healers still have to be balanced and this change would have a huge effect on multiple points of balance that have to be considered. When you say you don't care about the numbers, you're saying you don't care enough to understand how those changes affect other areas, and that makes your suggestion just as ignorant.

I'm not saying the feedback about wanting a reliable Holy Shock is invalid, I'm just trying to help anyone who supports this change understand why they shouldn't be upset that the developers haven't tried it when you don't even understand how much it would really change.

Not completely, if someone was very low on health and you wanted to heal them ASAP before they get hit again it's occasionally relevant if they may have been hit and die faster than you could finish casting. Granted that would be extremely rare that the timing happened to work out that way.

It would also be better than LotM (but on a CD) if you didn't want to injure yourself or if you needed to heal yourself on the move since you can't cast LotM on yourself.


First, it's marginally better than Light of the Martyr (which is already a very niche ability), but it's still basically the same function, so it would be pretty redundant and not needed that much.

Second, this is still a worse version of Infusion of Light. What's the point of wanting a reliable Holy Shock crit if the buff isn't something you need regularly or has any impact on HPS? If all you wanted was a reliable Holy Shock, then why only Holy Shock? Why wouldn't you want all of our heals get the Chaos Bolt treatment? If you think applying the Chaos Bolt change to all of our heals is unrealistic, what makes it unrealistic?

The value is what I stated, to bring the HPS back up if it needed to be brought back up. It changes the value of infusion to utility from an HPS increase. If it made any of those talents too powerful, unlikely in the case of Divine Purpose since hardly anyone wants to take it over beacons anyway, they could just not do that.


This is frustrating to me because you have no idea how this would affect other talents, but you still want them to make the Chaos Bolt change anyway. As I've explained with multiple examples in previous posts, it's never as simple as "just make the new version do the same HPS as the old version".

They could add an additional mana cost reduction effect to flash so that light was just about HPS and the flash was cheaper faster and smaller if that made it a more compelling choice.


Throughout this entire discussion, you've had to make multiple concessions on how to make Infusion of Light work with this change, and they've always been weaker; that's been the point I was trying to make all along. You've posed the suggestion as being an innocuous change, but it would lead to other undesirable compromises elsewhere, and I don't think everyone is as willing to make the same compromises you are.

06/29/2018 12:35 AMPosted by Zenetta
Changing the mechanic isn't a very complex balancing issue at all.
Why can't we just have the buff? You insist that a Chaos Bolt version of Holy Light must require nerfs elsewhere, but why? Why not just let us have the buff? Why do other changes have to happen?
We didn't have to receive nerfs and changes in Legion with our 100% crit Holy Shocks so why is this time so different?
In BfA we have the lowest HPS and we are ranked last as the worst healer for Raiding. Give us the buff.
07/01/2018 05:18 PMPosted by Arnath
Why can't we just have the buff? You insist that a Chaos Bolt version of Holy Light must require nerfs elsewhere, but why? Why not just let us have the buff? Why do other changes have to happen?
We didn't have to receive nerfs and changes in Legion with our 100% crit Holy Shocks so why is this time so different?
In BfA we have the lowest HPS and we are ranked last as the worst healer for Raiding. Give us the buff.


1. It's a Chaos Bolt version of Holy Shock.
2. If you had actually read and comprehended any of the previous posts, you'd see that this change has wide-ranging effects on other abilities and balance. Just making the buff would be around a 25% increase to our overall healing. That's more than Beacon of Light and Beacon of Faith combined.
3. It's different because the game was balanced around artifact traits we don't have anymore, legendaries we don't have, different talents, different spell power coefficients for every spell, and different secondary stat scaling.
4. Method's healer ranking video is a horribly flawed video. The ratings for each category are arbitrary and averaged without any weight to those arbitrary categories. They don't mean anything. That's why, at the end of the video, he still says that Holy Paladins and Resto Shaman will still be brought to raids even though he ranked them as the bottom two.
07/01/2018 05:56 PMPosted by Dreamguard
Method's healer ranking video is a horribly flawed video. The ratings for each category are arbitrary and averaged without any weight to those arbitrary categories


Agreed with this.

They averaged 3 things

Throughput
Survivability/Mobility
Raid cooldowns.

But the above 3 are not equal in rating.

Imagine a healer with 0 throughput, that's right no spells at all basically a DPS
But with 10 survivability and 10 raid cooldowns. That still averages a 6.9/10 lol.
After playing holy pally in pvp on the 120 beta server, it feels like such a huge downgrade in fun from the legion holy pally. Especially the nerf from 1 -> 2 min's for the AC cd. The increase in CD on CS, the judgement debuff nerf, wings being on the gcd as well, all combine to make it feel like I should just be hiding in the back like every other healer. Such a waste when it was so fun in Legion. Worst yet, the other abilities being nerfed could be undone with just number changes to how hard they hit, but making the cd's longer with the AC nerf as well just makes it feel absolutely horrible.

Holy pally lost it's feel of being a melee capable healer in pvp. Please undo the fun nerf.
Scale to the exact same average value at what crit rating? They scale differently


Any crit rating and no.

If you heal for 100 with a 20% crit rating your average healing is 120. The change suggested with no other changes would just make you heal for 120 every single time instead of 100 80% of the time and 200 20% of the time.

If you increase to 50% crit chance and change no other stat, you heal on average for 150, with the change you just heal for that exact same value every time instead of 100 50% of the time and 200 50% of the time. The average is the same. It scales exactly the same except that the value is the same every time instead of the RNG scaling.

But those exact numbers do matter. It's easy to make a suggestion from blissful ignorance where you don't care about the numbers, but the healers still have to be balanced and this change would have a huge effect on multiple points of balance that have to be considered. When you say you don't care about the numbers, you're saying you don't care enough to understand how those changes affect other areas, and that makes your suggestion just as ignorant.

I'm not saying the feedback about wanting a reliable Holy Shock is invalid, I'm just trying to help anyone who supports this change understand why they shouldn't be upset that the developers haven't tried it when you don't even understand how much it would really change.


The point of giving feedback is to let the developers know what you like and dislike. It's their job to parse that feedback and do something about it. They don't need you to math nerd out and do their jobs for them.

People like big reliable holy shock crits. They don't like BfA unreliable holy shock.

This is frustrating to me because you have no idea how this would affect other talents, but you still want them to make the Chaos Bolt change anyway.


It's frustrating to me that people mindlessly defend boring design and think RNG is fun.

Throughout this entire discussion, you've had to make multiple concessions on how to make Infusion of Light work with this change


That's only assuming current balance was perfect and needed to be perfectly maintained, which is your assumption.

You've posed the suggestion as being an innocuous change, but it would lead to other undesirable compromises elsewhere, and I don't think everyone is as willing to make the same compromises you are.


The entire premise of all your posts pretends that Blizzard has little to no wiggle room and that BfA design just has to be crap because of all these other factors that would have to change to make it less of a dreadfully boring design because everything is already set in stone and interdependent and we need to maintain some already existing balance (which probably doesn't actually exist yet anyway).

We just had much more interesting class design in Legion. We've had more interesting class design prior to the design team change after MoP. I couldn't care less how obsessive you are about the current numbers and how much else would have to change to change the boring design. It's boring. They can do better. They have in the past. I don't accept that they have to do what they're doing because it's too late and blah blah this is already dependent on that. Oh well. Fix it anyway.

It's not our fault they butchered numerous specs design by stripping a bunch of stuff out and then giving us a stripped watered down version of Legion class design. I don't accept that it's too difficult for them to change when they've already had better design of the spec in the past.

This was just one suggestion to bring back one of the best aspects of one of Legion's design elements while removing the extreme dependence on crit. I'm not saying it by itself would make everyone happy. People have already talked about plenty of other aspects that they miss from Legion or other past expansions as well.

Originally when this was first brought up your argument was essentially "RNG is more fun!" Now you've switched to, "this just can't work because numbers are hard." I find both arguments to be flawed and don't agree.

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