Holy Paladin Feedback

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07/04/2018 12:37 AMPosted by Pelinal
All I have to say is I personally have never felt more frustrated or downright sad about the state of the class, it feels like a downgrade from Legion.


I think this honestly sums up most people's feelings about the state of the spec. I think most of us would agree that Legion Hpally FELT GOOD. Blizzard has a high bar to compete with themselves and I think that is what's making the lack of feedback/communication from the devs even more frustrating day by day.
Legion holy pally wasn't perfect by any means, but at least you weren't totally bored out of your mind spamming the same thing over again with little to no interaction with other spells.

I'm pretty unhappy with the lack of changes and everything being taken away. A few classes got some great work for them, but if you weren't one of those classes, you got barely more then patch level changes AND things taken away.

We don't even have our visual rework for launch, (the tome that was in for holy light was even removed, which is still shown pretty prominently on some BFA materials and pages.) which makes things feel doubly bad.

Holy paladins might be able to still do the job of healing, but we aren't, right now, having fun doing so, and number tuning can't fix that.
07/03/2018 03:11 PMPosted by Dreamguard
No, you've made this strawman argument several times.


No, I was correct and that is exactly what you were doing. I was explaining to you correctly that if all the entire reason they weren't doing it was the delicate balance you described, it could easily be maintained. It could and I showed you that it could and you continue to wrongly and incorrectly insist it could not be done or just don't want to acknowledge that it could and your entire argument was just an attempt to make an argument that you thought worked in some way because you knew "I just don't like it," which is really what you were thinking, was a minority opinion and most paladins would prefer a consistent and reliable shock.

You were wrong, are wrong and will continue to be wrong.

07/03/2018 03:11 PMPosted by Dreamguard
It's not easy to keep the average the same. I'll discuss your Holy Shock formula below, but you've never been able to give a reasonable answer for how to balance Infusion of Light either.


Yes. Yes I did. Because it's laughably easy and you continue to overcomplicate it and insist it would be difficult when literally all they would do is look at the numbers, adjust holy light and flash. They do aura adjustments to all classes kits all the time.

07/03/2018 03:11 PMPosted by Dreamguard
You've gotten to the answer, but you don't have a formula that is understandable or translates to anything else in the game. It doesn't apply to anything else, and when you're making a game that requires lots of other developers and players to be able to understand it, it should follow similar guidelines.


As stated, the only reason you would do is is if you assume they had already hit some delicate balance and didn't want to re-balance anything else around the suggested mechanical change at this point. It's a counter argument that successfully nullifies your point that the change would be too complex to balance and/or take too much time to balance or have unintended ripple effects etc, which it would not if you did not want it to.

07/03/2018 04:08 PMPosted by Aforethought
I love how the last two pages are argument over something that will never happen ever. Nice.


Probably true. I think it was more pointless because the basis of the argument against it I was responding to was nonsense about how mathematically complex changing it would be when the reality is they probably just like RNG better. They just don't like a consistent mechanic so they stick to RNG and it has nothing at all to do with numbers balance.

Or, like for most suggestions it's simply, maybe in 8.1, but probably not because by the time we get to 8.1 the excuse will shift to "we're too far into the expansion to make major changes" and you'll just have to wait for the next expansion if you don't like your specs design at that point.

07/06/2018 09:49 AMPosted by Pastafarian
A few classes got some great work for them, but if you weren't one of those classes, you got barely more then patch level changes AND things taken away.


Yea the only classes that seemed to get much attention were the handful with significant re-designs or major overhauls. Every other spec is just Legion-lite. They didn't have time to do anything else with them or perhaps underestimated how negative a reaction they'd get if they just took a spec people liked and stripped out artifacts and legendaries and called it a day.
06/29/2018 12:35 AMPosted by Zenetta
Changing the mechanic isn't a very complex balancing issue at all.


06/29/2018 05:23 PMPosted by Zenetta
Infusion is weird because they changed the ratio between flash/light/shock in BfA compared to Legion. I'm also not sure how to decide the exact value, but it could easily be adjusted to whatever they felt was right if they wanted the proc to do what it currently does.


I pointed out that if you wanted shock to have the exact same average value, it would be trivial to do so and it would.

I don’t think it would be hard to balance or make this change, you do.


It could easily scale to the same ending average, if that was a goal.


Yes. Yes I did. Because it's laughably easy and you continue to overcomplicate it and insist it would be difficult when literally all they would do is look at the numbers, adjust holy light and flash.


If this is as easy, simple, and trivial as you say it is, it should be just as easy to prove it.
07/06/2018 12:22 PMPosted by Dreamguard
If this is as easy, simple, and trivial as you say it is, it should be just as easy to prove it.

[/quote]

If you believe a mathematical proof is required to demonstrate that infusion is easy to balance by a minor adjustment to flash and holy light, I suggest you pull your head out of the nether and realize you're wrong.

I already demonstrated keeping holy shock at the same average value could be done if you wanted to do it, which would nullify any and all impact that change would have on holy shocks output as well as its interaction with any talent.
04/26/2018 02:40 PMPosted by Immanis
If you're looking for ideas, reverting to the old Mastery would be a good one.

I was just thinking that since disc is back to being at least a semi-absorb healer again, the old hpal mastery could feasibly also be given back. If they want hpallies in melee range, the toolkit already makes it fun. No need to force it with a boring and sometimes punitive mastery.
07/06/2018 01:08 PMPosted by Noxena
04/26/2018 02:40 PMPosted by Immanis
If you're looking for ideas, reverting to the old Mastery would be a good one.

I was just thinking that since disc is back to being at least a semi-absorb healer again, the old hpal mastery could feasibly also be given back. If they want hpallies in melee range, the toolkit already makes it fun. No need to force it with a boring and sometimes punitive mastery.


This. I've been saying this since the Alpha. Just give old mastery back and get rid of the forced melee and boring current mastery. It's not fun. It's not engaging. It feels punishing, particularly when raids have to spread out. There should never be a point in gameplay where I feel like my stats are hurting me.
07/06/2018 12:44 PMPosted by Zenetta
If you believe a mathematical proof is required to demonstrate that infusion is easy to balance by a minor adjustment to flash and holy light, I suggest you pull your head out of the nether and realize you're wrong.


Here, I'll show you how to actually talk about numbers specifically.

The value of the buff from Infusion of Light scales linearly with crit chance. At 5% crit chance, Holy Shock will give Flash of Light an average increase of 14% (40 * (0.05 + 0.3)). At 10% crit chance, Holy Shock gives Flash of Light an average increase of 16% (40 * (0.1 + 0.3)). Every additional 5% crit chance gives Holy Shock an additional 2% to Flash of Light's buff on average. The same is true for the buff to Holy Light, except that it's reducing the average cast time by 0.05s every 5% crit.

If you were to make the change to have Holy Shock have guaranteed crit chance and always give the Infusion of Light buff, then the average value of Infusion of Light would be static. Every Holy Shock would always give a 40% increase to Flash of Light and reduce the cast time of Holy Light by 1.5s.

First, you'd have to choose which percentage of crit chance to try and make Infusion of Light be balanced with the old Holy Shock. Let's say we choose 20% crit. At 20% crit chance, the new Holy Shock gives an extra 50% SP to Flash of Light (125 * 0.4). The old Holy Shock only gives an extra 25% SP on average (125 * 0.2). So, an IoL-buffed Flash of Light with the new Holy Shock is 175% SP, and with the old buff it's 150% SP.

In order to nerf Flash of Light so that the new Infusion of Light is equal to the old version, you'd need to reduce it to ~107% SP (107 * 1.4 ~= 125 * 1.2).

Similarly, if you wanted to nerf Holy Light to be equal to the new version's Infusion of Light, you would have to reduce it to 105% SP (105 / (2.5 - 1) = 140 / (2.5 - 0.5)).

So, in the end, Flash of Light would be 107% SP, and Holy Light would be 105% SP. Not only are those incredibly weak and incredibly expensive for how weak they are, but now Holy Light is almost half the HPS of Flash of Light. Light of the Martyr (even when accounting for the 50% reduction) would be more HPS and HPM than Holy Light.

Holy Light would be less HPS than Soothing Mist.

I don't know what you consider to be "minor", but that seems like a very big change to me. I don't want Holy Light and Flash of Light to be that weak.

I already demonstrated keeping holy shock at the same average value could be done if you wanted to do it, which would nullify any and all impact that change would have on holy shocks output as well as its interaction with any talent.


All you've demonstrated was that you don't understand how to model the game's mechanics.
Could we do something here other then argue about additions to the spec that someone made as a suggestion? Players themselves aren't even the ones who balance the spec, it's devs. Arguing about math details about a suggestion someone made doesn't get us anywhere.

We should be suggesting new mechanics and other changes that would nake the spec fun and interesting again. Leave the balancing of the suggestions to the devs.
07/07/2018 01:43 PMPosted by Pastafarian
We should be suggesting new mechanics and other changes that would nake the spec fun and interesting again. Leave the balancing of the suggestions to the devs.


That's kind of been the point; when you don't understand how everything works together, your suggestions aren't really helpful.
I'd be for making IoL a guaranteed proc that didn't effect FoL but made HL instant. It would speed up the gameplay a little bit.
Maybe make the proc not affect flash of light, but make holy light increased healing and instant?
I wish. I was trying to be realistic though. Trade the extra healing for more on the move healing.
I don’t understand why it matters how complex it is. It’s not our job to tell them how difficult the math will or won’t be. It’s our prerogative to make suggestions towards what we believe will better the spec.

A lot of suggestions are mathematically complex for the Devs. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t implement it and it really doesn’t matter how complicated it is. If you analyze a change and decide it’s very mathematically complex does that mean the Devs shouldn’t implement it? All because it’s difficult? That’s a bit ridiculous imo.

The argument over mathematical complexity is a bit ridiculous in and of itself. Unless for some reason it’s nearly impossible to implement it’s not our job to worry about how hard it will be. Unless it’s just a conversation about the math for the sake of conversation, arguing about it is pointless.

On topic/suggestions:
Honestly, I dislike having 1 proc that’s specifically RNG. I don’t mind IoL or Holy Shock being RNG but I’d like another proc that is controllable and adds more depth. Similar to Daybreak for example, you use an ability and it alters or adds to another one. IE- Every time you use judgement, the amount of people healed by LoD is increased by x.

This runs the risk of having a small rotation within the spec but we had that in legion with Maraads and it seemed to be favorable. It would add a bit more depth and interaction to the spec which is lacking badly right now. That specific example also adds judgement back into the spells we use (if not specced into JoL).

Another suggestion: Make RoL baseline, add the judgement DR trait in its place. Simple and allows for that row to be all utility with 3 good choices.
... bunch of nonsense ...


They manged to have a useful and balanced infusion + holy light and flash of light value throughout all of Legion despite us being able to reach 100% crit chance fairly early on. I have faith that they could make it work despite your attempts to argue otherwise. Your math continues to prove nothing at all about whether or not it would be a good gameplay change.

Also, for someone who believes they understand game mechanics and math so well, your math was pretty bad. If they wanted your overall HPS to stay around the same, they wouldn't adjust holy light and flash to make infusion procs identical, they'd adjust it so your overall average output would remain the same over time. Reducing to the numbers in your example would be a huge nerf and not be balanced at all because most of your holy light and flash casts would not be under infusion.

For example, in 6 casts if you only cast flash and holy shock, you'd only get one infusion proc. 5 casts would be flash with one infused and one cast would be shock. Before the change your total output from all those flashes would be 125+125+125+125+152ish average if you consider 20% crit from gear 5% base and 30% from shock = 652 . Your math claims the value would have to be lowered to 107+107+107+107+150 = lolwhat (578). So it would actually be more around 120*4 + 168 = 648 (it'd be a bit higher, but obviously your numbers are just completely wrong). In 12 casts you'd have 2 shocks and 10 flashes with 2 infused flashes for 152 * 2 + 125 * 10 = 1,554. With changed numbers 168*2 + 120 * 10 = 1,536 (again the numbers would have to be a bit higher if you were going for exacts).

Also, given that you'll likely be casting more than holy light, flash and holy shock over an average fight, they may not have to adjust even by that much.

They would look at logs and average HPS output and the adjustment would be much smaller than you claim. I'd still prefer a 100% crit holy shock and a weaker infusion if that was a tradeoff that needed to be made, but your claims of how drastic infusion or holy light/flash would need to be changed are completely unrealistic at best.

The real reason they may not make the change is just because they don't like it mechanically or gameplay wise, not because balancing it would be too difficult.
@Zenetta

My post above yours is actually a bit wrong. Gonna make a new one explaining why and why I also believe we’re both slightly wrong here.

While I do believe arguing over mathematical complications is pointless and not our job or concern, it does become our concern when the change we propose may affect the spec in a large way whether it’s a negative or positive way. For example, this change would clearly throw off the balance between IoL HL/FoL as it has all throughout legion.

I’m not sure how you can say IOL is balanced in legion, because it’s not. You will never spend IoL on HL at all unless you don’t need the IoL proc and damage is absurdly low but even then that’s a waste. IoL FoL is also more mana efficient due to the increased healing as opposed to IoL HL which is a problem imo.

Regardless, Dreamguards point is pretty valid. When you ask for changes you need to consider the ripple effect if it’s a change that is fairly large.

If reliable holy shock was implemented right now, all we’d use is IoL FOL. I personally think before that happens, IoL needs some work. By that I mean, IoL HL needs to change because it’s near pointless in its current state. It still incurs the GCD, heals less than foL and in legion was less mana efficient than IoL FoL. The haste increase vs large healing increase is a disparity that is causing issues balancing out the two spells during Infusion. This is where the problem lies imo.

Honestly though, I don’t mind IoL being RNG. I think some RNG is fun, the problem is that IoL is the only type of interaction/depth that Holy has, which can be pretty frustrating and boring. I’d personally like to see a proc that functions similar to Daybreak or even Maraads. A proc that’s controllable and adds something you need to think about. I feel like that would make the spec more enjoyable and interesting as well as allow IoL to be a fun proc rather than a frustrating one since it would no longer be the only one.
07/09/2018 08:50 PMPosted by Zenetta
For example, in 6 casts if you only cast flash and holy shock, you'd only get one infusion proc. 5 casts would be flash with one infused and one cast would be shock. Before the change your total output from all those flashes would be 125+125+125+125+152ish average if you consider 20% crit from gear 5% base and 30% from shock = 652. Your math claims the value would have to be lowered to 107+107+107+107+150 = lolwhat (578).


Ok, first, you're comparing my example with 20% crit to your example with 25% crit. But that doesn't really matter because, in a raid, no one casts five Flash of Lights per Holy Shock. The Holy Light/Flash of Light to Holy Shock ratio is much closer to 1:1; meaning every Flash of Light (or Holy Light) would have an Infusion of Light buff with your suggested change. The ratio varies based on encounter and talents, but the average is around 1:1.

Reducing to the numbers in your example would be a huge nerf and not be balanced at all because most of your holy light and flash casts would not be under infusion.


Here's my personal logs from a long time ago: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wJYtQ6Lqj2NV8nvk#type=casts&boss=-2&difficulty=0&source=29

Here's some more recent Security logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/xnT6fv4kDLd3y7Xg#type=casts&boss=-2&difficulty=0&wipes=1&source=12 and https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/XyVKrj78A3Gm9Bq6#boss=-2&difficulty=0&type=casts&source=7

Here's some Scared of the Dark logs: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/2PLcC9FAx14XkdVv#boss=-2&difficulty=0&type=casts&source=5 (closer to 1.6 FoL to 1 Holy Shock) and https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/2PLcC9FAx14XkdVv#boss=-2&difficulty=0&type=casts&source=80

Feel free to look at other logs from Uldir testing. There are outliers in either direction due to the encounter and talents, but it's about 1:1 on average. That means that my "bunch of nonsense" is still accurate.

Maybe you were giving a scenario where someone was only casting Flash of Light and Holy Shock and nothing else, but that doesn't really apply to how we actually heal, so it's useless.
I miss beacon of easy mode tho
07/10/2018 01:49 AMPosted by Oimate
I miss beacon of easy mode tho


In its place, you got healing ezmode for holy paladins in general. If you're not bored out of your mind by the lack of new healing mechanics, and the slowness of the spec that is.
07/10/2018 12:57 AMPosted by Dreamguard
Maybe you were giving a scenario where someone was only casting Flash of Light and Holy Shock and nothing else, but that doesn't really apply to how we actually heal, so it's useless.


Your math was even more useless since it didn't consider how often you cast them without infusion at all.

07/10/2018 12:57 AMPosted by Dreamguard
The ratio varies based on encounter and talents, but the average is around 1:1.


I kind of doubt there's a 1:1 ratio, especially in 5 mans (raid balance isn't the only thing that exists). Even if that were the case, your numbers are still way off since they considered zero casts without infusion.

Again, your suggestion about how drastic a reduction they'd have to make are simply unrealistic and overstated at best and your math did not prove anything. They would look at your overall output and adjust from there, not make infusion procs identical since you don't cast holy/flash exclusively with infusion procs.

07/09/2018 11:13 PMPosted by Taeldoriàn
I’m not sure how you can say IOL is balanced in legion, because it’s not. You will never spend IoL on HL at all unless you don’t need the IoL proc and damage is absurdly low but even then that’s a waste. IoL FoL is also more mana efficient due to the increased healing as opposed to IoL HL which is a problem imo.


I wasn't claiming that it was balanced in the sense that you'd want to use it on FoL or HL about equally. I don't think that's ever been the case in the games history.

I meant that they were clearly fine with it procing ~100% of the time. If they thought the overall value was too high they simply would have adjusted the value of HL/FoL to compensate.

edit:

07/10/2018 12:57 AMPosted by Dreamguard
Ok, first, you're comparing my example with 20% crit to your example with 25% crit.


Well I included base 5%, but you're still completely wrong.

If you considered only cast one infused flash to one uninfused cast it would be

125+ 150 average if you use your 50% crit value = 275

To keep that the same even at 50% crit rather than 55, it would be about:

115 + 161 = 276

So we'd still end up with actually stronger and more pronounced average infusion or average use of holy shock since you get a higher average infusion every time you cast it (the actual infusion from the RNG version is obviously slightly higher), making the mechanic feel more significant and more reliable. You've contended repeatedly that this change would somehow have to make the mechanic weaker and more boring when that just isn't the case.

You also argued about how weak uninfused casts would feel, then bring up that you only cast them on average once uninfused for every infused cast. So... why are you so concerned about how an uninfused cast would feel when you're apparently casting them so infrequently that you have a 1:1 ratio supposedly?

If you were casting uninfused casts more frequently, then the values would have to be higher as I showed with more frequent uninfused casts above. If it's only 1:1 you're not casting it frequently enough uninfused to care that it's that much weaker and the overall output remains the same with more impactful average infused casts. In reality your ratio is probably garbage in most content, but even if you were right your overall argument and math are still wrong.

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