Players that leave a Mythic+ after 1 wipe...

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04/04/2018 12:08 PMPosted by Snotbubble
Do mvp’s get suspensions? I’m saddened to see a new green nearly condone name and shame.


Yes, we can get a forum vacation. We have to follow the same rules as everyone.

And yes, name and shame threads are bad. So let's not go there.

As mentioned a number of times in the thread, the problem with any sort of negative system is that it's pretty ripe for abuse. From what they've told us, they've considered some sort of negative system back when keys were totally lost from a failed run, but they couldn't come up with something that couldn't be abused. So we ended up with a system where keys degrade instead of completely go poof.
04/04/2018 11:47 AMPosted by Xoja
There are plenty of team-oriented games out there that have leaver punishment systems for consistent offenders and it works out quite well.


This is a poor analogy, as most games with leaver punishments are PvP games, where 1 team has to lose and 1 team has to win.

It wouldn't be a satisfying experience as the winning team if every time you were doing well and having a good game the other team just left. In a PvE setting you don't really need a punishment system, you aren't queueing for a DoTA 2 match where you are gonna be assigned random people.
Join a guild make friends every problem solved. Stop being antisocial.
This kind of behavior is exactly why I don't bother pugging M+ anymore...even if I'm pugging just 1 person. The last few I ran, a person would just up and leave for no apparent reason. No mishaps, no wipes...they didn't even say anything. They'd just up and leave...and we would have to 4-man it the rest of the way.
04/04/2018 12:08 PMPosted by Snotbubble
04/04/2018 09:36 AMPosted by Metrohaha
There needs to be a punishment system for Mythic+ leavers. Without question, this will be the #1 thing the system needs moving forward.

This happens even in 20+s that I pug as well.
If the dungeon doesn't go exactly as they want it to, they leave.

At this point, I'm considering name-and-shame posts or other media to discourage this.
Do mvp’s get suspensions? I’m saddened to see a new green nearly condone name and shame.


I agree, and I am very sorry for this. I said it without realizing the meaning of the words and I am really ashamed of that.

What I meant to say was that I am at my wit's end with leavers and its gotten very frustrating. There is no recourse for them and I don't know what to do about it any more.

I just hope we can find an agreeable solution in the future!
When you build a group for a keystone through the group builder you're just doing a manual version of the group finder WoW has available for normal dungeons and raids. It's been said before during Q&As, if you want a decent group then join a guild or play with friends.

We use addons to help us determine a players "skill" level but the truth is they are a pug and we know nothing about them.

I'm really looking forward to the new communities coming out with BfA. I really feel like they are going to help me meet and find some great M+ players.
04/04/2018 12:44 PMPosted by Metrohaha
04/04/2018 12:08 PMPosted by Snotbubble
...Do mvp’s get suspensions? I’m saddened to see a new green nearly condone name and shame.


I agree, and I am very sorry for this. I said it without realizing the meaning of the words and I am really ashamed of that.

What I meant to say was that I am at my wit's end with leavers and its gotten very frustrating. There is no recourse for them and I don't know what to do about it any more.

I just hope we can find an agreeable solution in the future!
While what we have now is not a perfect system, the change made to demote a key instead of deplete it combats quite a bit of the issues with leavers. The removal of multiple loot chests also helps this system. The forum noise over M+ deserters is quite subdued compared to the first iteration.

If Blizzard is to develop a system to punish leavers they will have to account for too many possible variables. How do you account for someone leaving a guild group of 4 that has no possible chance of getting down the first boss? Hell, can’t make it to the first boss? The system of punishment would need to differentiate that leaver versus the raging leaver, or many other other legitimate reasons.
04/04/2018 12:02 PMPosted by Dertae
They should just make it so if you leave a group while members of your group are running a M+ then you will receive a 30-60min debuff that will disallow the activation of any M+ keys. So that player cannot activate their key and if they join another group it will disallow anyone in that group to activate a key until the players debuff wears off or he leaves the group.


There are a few problems with this.

1) How do you differentiate someone who bails on a group vs. someone who leaves with his teammates consent and/or the team mutually decides to stop because they've hit a brick wall? I have been in a group where after multiple wipes on the same boss we all decided to just call it. Whoever leaves first gets the penalty? Is that fair?

2) A bad mythic + run can take 45-60 minutes. A lot of people would gladly take the debuff penalty and go afk in Dalaran rather than sit out a horrendous dungeon run.
04/04/2018 01:19 PMPosted by Snotbubble
If Blizzard is to develop a system to punish leavers they will have to account for too many possible variables. How do you account for someone leaving a guild group of 4 that has no possible chance of getting down the first boss? Hell, can’t make it to the first boss? The system of punishment would need to differentiate that leaver versus the raging leaver, or many other other legitimate reasons.


I've had this discussion many times and I agree there is no easy way to fix it. The most logical choice I had seen is to show some type of stat or visual indicator for when people fail to complete a group. This way you get no REAL punishment, but if you fail to complete dozens of dungeons, people will be able to put 2 and 2 together.

I don't think there will be a perfect answer to this question, but regardless it happens way more than it should considering how well the system is incentivized. Really the biggest offender here is Mythic+ score, as it promotes a non-constructive score system based on irrelevant criteria.

If that was fixed, the problem would be lessened dramatically, because the people leaving are often doing so because they are ONLY there to increase their score.
The "leavers score" could even just be implemented on sites like that instead of by Blizzard directly.
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No, it's not.


Yes, it is.

Harass - to create an unpleasant or hostile situation for especially by uninvited and unwelcome verbal or physical conduct

Per the EULA, which you can find here: http://us.blizzard.com/en-us/company/legal/eula.html

Disruption / Harassment: Engage in any conduct intended to disrupt or diminish the game experience for other players...

It is not against the EULA to complain to your GM about your in-game behavior. It's not against the EULA to complain to anyone about your in-game behavior. You're confusing communication with harassment; there is a point at which the two can meet, but informing your GM is far from that mark.
Contacting a third party that wasn't involved in a situation to tattle on someone because you disagree with their actions IS harrassing them.
No, it's not. Not even remotely.
04/04/2018 12:35 PMPosted by Shinitai
Join a guild make friends every problem solved. Stop being antisocial.
It's not that easy for many people with social anxiety disorders.
It's why again the simplest solution is just to ignore and move on.

Both sides have great justifications but any system that punishes would have consequences and probably unintended ones too.

04/04/2018 12:25 PMPosted by Voodooladx
At the end of the day, you pick the people you run M+ dungeons with.


To be fair even if you do extensive research you're still not guaranteed anything.
04/04/2018 12:44 PMPosted by Metrohaha
I agree, and I am very sorry for this. I said it without realizing the meaning of the words and I am really ashamed of that.

What I meant to say was that I am at my wit's end with leavers and its gotten very frustrating. There is no recourse for them and I don't know what to do about it any more.

I just hope we can find an agreeable solution in the future!

No worries friend. At the end of the day, I'm not sure there is a solution that will fix this problem. The game has in-grained a concept of "time is money" into every hardcore (or wannabe hardcore) players brain that they'd rather not waste time completing a task if it isn't going to yield a good enough reward. Look at all the threads decrying the changes to timewalking dungeons. A slight change that makes the dungeons take 5 minutes longer and simply requires that you pay attention during the run is met with public outcry that the entire system is now worthless. Why? Because it isn't worth the time...

At the end of the day... when it comes to content that is meant to be done with an organized party... don't pug. If you do pug... then accept that sometimes you're gunna get screwed. Why? Because random is random.
04/04/2018 01:31 PMPosted by Metrohaha
Really the biggest offender here is Mythic+ score, as it promotes a non-constructive score system based on irrelevant criteria.


I'm sorry, but blaming Mythic+ scores is a strawman. Raider.io has become a convenient scapegoat on this forum for everything wrong in the world.

The truth of the matter is people have been quitting PuGs since the game started.

04/04/2018 01:31 PMPosted by Metrohaha
The "leavers score" could even just be implemented on sites like that instead of by Blizzard directly.


Any sort of "leavers score" would have to be based on information from Blizzard. But regardless, that doesn't address the issues I mentioned previously.

How do you differentiate someone who bails on a group vs. someone who leaves with his teammates consent and/or the team mutually decides to stop because they've hit a brick wall? I have been in a group where after multiple wipes on the same boss we all decided to just call it. Whoever leaves first gets the penalty? Is that fair?
04/04/2018 12:01 PMPosted by Primalmatter
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I have a brain and am capable of comprehending what you are saying.

You shouldn’t be able to leave as many runs as you want without some price to pay, though.

There are plenty of team-oriented games out there that have leaver punishment systems for consistent offenders and it works out quite well.


I avoid those too. I don't enjoy hots because you can't surrender when your team ignores the map.

I have zero desire to be held hostage. Zero as in not a ounce.

There is no band of brothers just pugs that I will never see again and I am not going to invest a entire evening into dragging them through their key.


I’m not really sure if you are actually someone who leaves a key after a single wipe or not. You just keep babbling on about not being required to stay in a run.

So what is it? Are you someone who leaves after one wipe, or are you someone who gives a group a few chances and then leaves?

Because, if the latter, I think it’s a little more reasonable. But if it’s the former, I don’t see why you even bother doing M+ with pugs because your expectations are way too high if you expect every group to not ever wipe.

Mostly wondering because I think you are misunderstanding me here. No one should be expected to stay in every single run, but those who leave the majority of runs they are in just because they feel like it are contributing to a problem.

Mythic+ was fine until the score became an issue.
04/04/2018 01:31 PMPosted by Metrohaha
If that was fixed, the problem would be lessened dramatically, because the people leaving are often doing so because they are ONLY there to increase their score.


This is a pretty broad assumption.

04/04/2018 01:34 PMPosted by Sithes
04/04/2018 12:35 PMPosted by Shinitai
Join a guild make friends every problem solved. Stop being antisocial.
It's not that easy for many people with social anxiety disorders.


YMMV obviously, but I'm a pretty socially anxious person and I find it way more anxiety-producing to play with strangers who might yell at me over a snap judgement. Making friends is harder in the short-term but pays off with less anxiety later.
04/04/2018 01:38 PMPosted by Dilancea
How do you differentiate someone who bails on a group vs. someone who leaves with his teammates consent and/or the team mutually decides to stop because they've hit a brick wall? I have been in a group where after multiple wipes on the same boss we all decided to just call it. Whoever leaves first gets the penalty? Is that fair?


What we agreed would be most fair would simply be a statistical compilation. Player joined 250 keys, and only FINISHED 175 of them. That trend says a lot.

The average player joined 250 and finished 230 of them.
etc.

You'd be able to see gross offenders without needing a proper punishment in place.
The mutual stops count too, but there aren't going to be dozens of those like there would be for some of the offenders atm.

Really, no matter what the reason, if you habitually fail to complete keys, I would like to know about it before we play together. I likely wouldn't hold it against people, but it would just be good to know before we begin so I can set my expectations properly.

Things like emergencies and agreeing to quit shouldn't happen enough to measure up to those who do it selfishly.

I think its pretty safe to say everyone would agree that people who do that should not be able to continually do it without SOME sort of acknowledgment of it right?
I deal with this in any game here, Resident evil when I play mercs, Monster Hunter.... folks just have this dumb mindset that as soon as they die once things can't be salvaged well poop on them when that boss drops a rare item that they needed or what's left of the group makes an amazing comeback
04/04/2018 01:43 PMPosted by Xoja
Mostly wondering because I think you are misunderstanding me here. No one should be expected to stay in every single run, but those who leave the majority of runs they are in just because they feel like it are contributing to a problem.


How do you know they leave the majority of their runs? For all your know they only left yours for whatever reason.

04/04/2018 01:43 PMPosted by Xoja
Mythic+ was fine until the score became an issue.


Is that a joke? We had plenty of complains about leavers since day 1 of legion(well when mythic + open).

04/04/2018 01:48 PMPosted by Metrohaha
What we agreed would be most fair would simply be a statistical compilation. Player joined 250 keys, and only FINISHED 175 of them. That trend says a lot.

The average player joined 250 and finished 230 of them.
etc.

You'd be able to see gross offenders without needing a proper punishment in place.
The mutual stops count too, but there aren't going to be dozens of those like there would be for some of the offenders atm.


It is a proper punishment, someone with a "negative" score might as well be banned from using the LFG tool, no matter how they got it.

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