Players that leave a Mythic+ after 1 wipe...

General Discussion
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04/04/2018 01:46 PMPosted by Tetsubin
YMMV obviously, but I'm a pretty socially anxious person and I find it way more anxiety-producing to play with strangers who might yell at me over a snap judgement. Making friends is harder in the short-term but pays off with less anxiety later.

I'm actually referring to social anxiety disorders, rather than social anxiety. The latter can be a significant hurdle to overcome in social situations, but the former is a deeper, almost intractable sort of thing.

That said, I agree that playing with strangers can be very stressful for anyone with social anxiety. It's a barrier to access to much of the game's best content for them. Being able to make friends to play the game with is incomparably preferable, many people just can't.
04/04/2018 01:48 PMPosted by Metrohaha
04/04/2018 01:38 PMPosted by Dilancea
How do you differentiate someone who bails on a group vs. someone who leaves with his teammates consent and/or the team mutually decides to stop because they've hit a brick wall? I have been in a group where after multiple wipes on the same boss we all decided to just call it. Whoever leaves first gets the penalty? Is that fair?


What we agreed would be most fair would simply be a statistical compilation. Player joined 250 keys, and only FINISHED 175 of them. That trend says a lot.

The average player joined 250 and finished 230 of them.
etc.

You'd be able to see gross offenders without needing a proper punishment in place.
The mutual stops count too, but there aren't going to be dozens of those like there would be for some of the offenders atm.

Really, no matter what the reason, if you habitually fail to complete keys, I would like to know about it before we play together. I likely wouldn't hold it against people, but it would just be good to know before we begin so I can set my expectations properly.

Things like emergencies and agreeing to quit shouldn't happen enough to measure up to those who do it selfishly.

I think its pretty safe to say everyone would agree that people who do that should not be able to continually do it without SOME sort of acknowledgment of it right?


Not at all.... your entire view point seems to stem from not understanding how basic social structures work.

The most likely people to "leave" keys are those starting out in the cesspit that is low level keys where often times people far beyond their skill level refuse to leave keys and would drag the others along until finally the penalty occurs.

That in turn would leave late comes and people behind the curve with a excess amount of abandoned keys compared to someone who is already established with a 15 or higher key.

In the end your terrible idea would simply promote stacking group more so then already as there is now another risked added to a failed key then existed before.

If blizzard wants to make the problem better the best they could do is remove keys all together and simply have a dungeon of the week/day with a fully adjustable level for mythic+

People should never be beholden to another it won't end well. At best you get the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
04/04/2018 01:43 PMPosted by Xoja
So what is it? Are you someone who leaves after one wipe, or are you someone who gives a group a few chances and then leaves?


Would an automated system to punish early-leavers differentiate between the two?

04/04/2018 01:54 PMPosted by Sithes
That said, I agree that playing with strangers can be very stressful for anyone with social anxiety. It's a barrier to access to much of the game's best content for them. Being able to make friends to play the game with is incomparably preferable, many people just can't.


Yeah, that's understandable. As someone with other disability, I kind of hate the "oh well this isn't meant for you then, buzz off" response to complaints about accessibility - but at the same time, it feels inherently unavoidable that content designed for social groups would be inaccessible for people with social disorders.
04/04/2018 01:43 PMPosted by Xoja
Mostly wondering because I think you are misunderstanding me here. No one should be expected to stay in every single run, but those who leave the majority of runs they are in just because they feel like it are contributing to a problem.


How do you know they leave the majority of their runs? For all your know they only left yours for whatever reason.

04/04/2018 01:43 PMPosted by Xoja
Mythic+ was fine until the score became an issue.


Is that a joke? We had plenty of complains about leavers since day 1 of legion(well when mythic + open).


I ran a lot of mythics at the start of Legion and people were more willing to stay in the runs even if they didn’t go great because there was no score to worry about.

I don’t run as many now, and when I do them it’s mostly with friends but I hear complaints all the time about leavers. Mythics are more sport now than they are a way of advancing your character because all many players care about is their score so they will leave a run if it does not promise a 2 or 3 chest.

If you don’t see the difference in then and now I don’t know how else to explain it to you.

Also, there are definitely people that leave runs on a whim because there’s no punishment for it, so the score system encourages them to leave the run.

I can’t necessarily say I blame them but I feel like there need to be some changes made.
04/04/2018 01:56 PMPosted by Primalmatter
The most likely people to "leave" keys are those starting out in the cesspit that is low level keys where often times people far beyond their skill level refuse to leave keys and would drag the others along until finally the penalty occurs.


Sorry, assumed we were on the same page that the statistical element would operate the same way it does currently on RaiderIO, showing the level range of the keys completed and thus uncompleted.

Either way, I totally agree there is no easy answer. I wish there was, but its not as big of a deal as it sounds. Just REALLY sucks when you are trying to push your key and one small mistake makes you go backwards instead of forwards thanks to a leaver.
The most likely people to "leave" keys are those starting out in the cesspit that is low level keys where often times people far beyond their skill level refuse to leave keys and would drag the others along until finally the penalty occurs


Not incorrect, but there are also players that leave high keys because one thing goes bad in the run and they are on track for a 2 chest instead of a 3 chest because the system encourages it
04/04/2018 02:04 PMPosted by Metrohaha
Sorry, assumed we were on the same page that the statistical element would operate the same way it does currently on RaiderIO, showing the level range of the keys completed and thus uncompleted.


This would be a pretty substantial change to data Blizzard provides and the amount of data provided. Right now Raider.Io and similar sites can't even track of every completed key, because the only information Blizzard makes available is the top 100 for each realm.
raider.io is the real problem here....

And before people tell me I am wrong, please explain this to me. I made a group last week for my weekly key. I put in the description that I am going to check raider.io. A 4 man group applies, and they all have 3000+ scores. I check and they all do m+20 keys regularly...

Since its "only" a 15, according to the tank, they become lax, and we failed an Upper Kara run by almost 15 minutes. They apologized for sucking, but their healer whispered me after they left that they bombed to keep the distance between my score and theirs. They don't want other people with high scores, when "they worked hard for theirs"

So, if people are going to bomb purposefully, just to screw over other players, what can Blizz do? I mean, they eliminated gearscore, with the ilevel system, so maybe they can come up with something on their end... Or stop sharing info that makes raider.io viable.
04/04/2018 02:00 PMPosted by Xoja
I ran a lot of mythics at the start of Legion and people were more willing to stay in the runs even if they didn’t go great because there was no score to worry about.

I don’t run as many now, and when I do them it’s mostly with friends but I hear complaints all the time about leavers. Mythics are more sport now than they are a way of advancing your character because all many players care about is their score so they will leave a run if it does not promise a 2 or 3 chest.

If you don’t see the difference in then and now I don’t know how else to explain it to you.

Also, there are definitely people that leave runs on a whim because there’s no punishment for it, so the score system encourages them to leave the run.

I can’t necessarily say I blame them but I feel like there need to be some changes made.


So you base your opinion on second hand experience? The majority of the player base is not doing m+ for their score, a +15 is really casual at this point in the game and people doing those dont really care about increasing it.

At higher levels is where you see people wanting to push their score, where competence is to be expected, so is easy to see why they get frustrated faster.

04/04/2018 02:08 PMPosted by Johnnydanger
Since its "only" a 15, according to the tank, they become lax, and we failed an Upper Kara run by almost 15 minutes. They apologized for sucking, but their healer whispered me after they left that they bombed to keep the distance between my score and theirs. They don't want other people with high scores, when "they worked hard for theirs"


That doesnt make any sense, a single +15 at 2 chest would not do much to increase your score above 2k, people at 3k dont care if you hit 2.2k.
04/04/2018 02:00 PMPosted by Xoja
I ran a lot of mythics at the start of Legion and people were more willing to stay in the runs even if they didn’t go great because there was no score to worry about.

I don’t run as many now, and when I do them it’s mostly with friends but I hear complaints all the time about leavers. Mythics are more sport now than they are a way of advancing your character because all many players care about is their score so they will leave a run if it does not promise a 2 or 3 chest.

If you don’t see the difference in then and now I don’t know how else to explain it to you.

Also, there are definitely people that leave runs on a whim because there’s no punishment for it, so the score system encourages them to leave the run.

I can’t necessarily say I blame them but I feel like there need to be some changes made.


So you base your opinion on second hand experience? The majority of the player base is not doing m+ for their score, a +15 is really casual at this point in the game and people doing those dont really care about increasing it.

At higher levels is where you see people wanting to push their score, where competence is to be expected, so is easy to see why they get frustrated faster.


Not sure where you got “second-hand experience” from, perhaps a need to insult my intelligence/ability stemming from a difference in opinion on this matter, or you somehow think that because I don’t do as many runs as I used to that people suddenly aren’t leaving runs before they are completed and that I’m making up information but anyway...

Originally you called me out on an assumption but you go ahead and make an assertion like “the majority of the player base isn’t running m+ for their score” and I gotta wonder if you have any supporting evidence for this.
04/04/2018 10:27 AMPosted by Kirela
04/04/2018 10:16 AMPosted by Primalmatter
...

Depends on the wipe. If it's because the player is clearly way out of their league your not going to turn the tide especially if you want to complete the time.

I have no desire to be compelled by other people or held hostage to them.


No one is saying take away the actual ability to leave a dungeon so no one is getting held hostage or "owned" by anyone so the argument you keep making doesn't make sense. If you leave a dungeon you queue for it gives you a debuff that makes sure you can't just keep queuing up and that's not you being held hostage.


That's like saying no one is saying you can't leave guantanamo bay. You're free to leave if you feel like getting shot at, swimming through heavy current and being eaten by sharks, sure.

There shouldn't be a penalty for leaving. There should be a system to catch people or track people doing this every other dungeon but not a flat out punishment. We live in a society where people are supposed to be free and innocent until proven guilty. Leaving a +15 with 3 dps doing 400k dps shouldn't be punished as that's obviously not going to get finished and somebody leaving is just being logical.
04/04/2018 11:10 AMPosted by Thunderçatz

Games like: Heros of the Storm---Overwatch---League of Legends (and I would assume other Mobas and shooters) have penalties for continuous leaving of even unranked games. I would support a system that at least has punishments if you continuously leave mythic + keys before the timer runs out. At least having a system in place that punishes continuous leaving would be a good way of people leaving JUST because the run is hitting some bumps.


Just a debuff that lasts a reasonable amount of time, say, 12 hours, has no effect, but stacks.

So. If you have someone join with 3 stacks you know he's either had some real bad luck or hasnt the stomach to stick out a run
As a companion score I introduce you to Failed Party Score, or FPS. This would provide a tally of the number of groups you were in that fell apart.

This would let others make assumptions on your ability as a team mate. If many of the groups you are in fall apart, then it’s obvious that it’s your fault.

Just kidding. We can make all kinds of ranking tools and it won’t solve much of anything.

I don’t PVP so I’m not too sure how Blizz does the rating stuff. Does that number tally up people that leave? Wouldn’t someone leaving ranked pvp possibly have a negative affect on the rating? We don’t lose score on failed keys so it’s only a time loss.
04/04/2018 01:31 PMPosted by Metrohaha
Really the biggest offender here is Mythic+ score, as it promotes a non-constructive score system based on irrelevant criteria.


Ehh..without .io score i probably care less with other people's key, i wont use flask and potions (since its their key anyway) and avoid the supposedly "hard" dungeon every week, i got no benefit from +3 ing the owner's key anyway or depleting it for that matter

Removing .io score wont suddenly make jerk stays with your group even if they wipe, if you're wiping at the first pull everybody know its a sign of 2 hours run, people just react differently to that sign

Its a pick-your-poison kind of situation, remove the score and you can see less tryhards in dungeon (both the perfectionist and the use potion every pull to get +3 guy) and more of "lol we got LFR titanforged 960 guy who have no clue what he's doing but we can't tell because there's no score" situation
04/04/2018 09:53 AMPosted by Xoja
While leavers have always been an issue, it’s definitely worse since the oncoming of sites like raider.io.
I've actually noticed the opposite. Less people leave when the invites are screened. They may not find another group that day.
If you want to know m+ experience without raider.io, just watch preach pug's experiment, spoiler alert : it takes 12 hours just to get ksm
04/04/2018 04:03 PMPosted by Vandragora
If you want to know m+ experience without raider.io, just watch preach pug's experiment, spoiler alert : it takes 12 hours just to get ksm
Every other sentence was him telling people that this is not the world of warcraft you should be playing you should invest into joining a guild and making a friends. Every problem will be fixed if you find friends to play with simple as that stop pugging everything thats a dumb excuse and people are being lazy.
If you want to know m+ experience without raider.io, just watch preach pug's experiment, spoiler alert : it takes 12 hours just to get ksm


is this the same Preach whose "experiment" back in MOP made him a laughing stock on every WOW platform in existence? The same Preach who spawned the VibVo spam that was torn apart on a dozen sites?

*eyeroll*
04/04/2018 04:13 PMPosted by Aehl

is this the same Preach whose "experiment" back in MOP made him a laughing stock on every WOW platform in existence? The same Preach who spawned the VibVo spam that was torn apart on a dozen sites?

*eyeroll*


i dont even know the guy until recently lol, he perform the experiment very seriously, outdpsing every "960" players in raid and m+ and still suffer 12 hours of queueing with bottom feeder just to complete +15 in time

you're a living meme on the forum yourself, why make fun of him?
04/04/2018 09:41 AMPosted by Tankyspanky
Again, a lot of guilds are just hodge podge collections of nomadic loners, but if they are in a REAL guild, it might lead to something.


I've never been in any kind of guild that would actually do anything about that, whether it was a mythic progression guild or some random one I was invited to. In most of them, the most likely scenario is that the officer you contact would make fun of you in gchat after they finished speaking with you. Guilds by and large aren't interested in playing babysitter and aren't going to punish members they like just because some randoms get upset with them.

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