Will the Alliance retaliate?

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They really should have attacked by now regardless. Even the Battle for Lordaeron feels like fair and proportionate retaliation for Teldrassil, so I don't feel much of a reason to be angry at the Alliance for it.
04/09/2018 10:35 AMPosted by Quard
Given that Sylvanas was trying to enslave an allied valkyr queen in order to make herself immortal, Genn's intervention was a good thing. Why would he be reprimanded?


Because Genn's actions weren't motivated by saving a Valkyr queen and she wasn't an ally at the time.

What you're doing is a logical fallacy called argumentum ad consequentiam, or "appeal to consequences." But the consequences of his actions have no bearing on the motives that drove him to act.

So, to answer your question, he would be reprimanded for dragging the Alliance into a new war against the Horde while both sides were still trying to save the world from the Burning Legion. Whether Sylvanas should be punished for attempting to steal Odyn's slave and the extent of that punishment is a separate question.
04/09/2018 12:49 PMPosted by Fondant
What you're doing is a logical fallacy called argumentum ad consequentiam, or "appeal to consequences."
I'm not sure that applies? My understanding is that you'd only use that in discussions about whether something is true or not. Not whether something is good/bad right/wrong.
04/09/2018 12:49 PMPosted by Fondant
04/09/2018 10:35 AMPosted by Quard
Given that Sylvanas was trying to enslave an allied valkyr queen in order to make herself immortal, Genn's intervention was a good thing. Why would he be reprimanded?


So, to answer your question, he would be reprimanded for dragging the Alliance into a new war against the Horde while both sides were still trying to save the world from the Burning Legion. Whether Sylvanas should be punished for attempting to steal Odyn's slave and the extent of that punishment is a separate question.


Im not sure if you've played the rogue order hall but you find out Matthias Shaw was replaced by Detheroc who was lying to and manipulating Anduin to attack the horde and start hostilities

(which I believe is the reason for Anduin's orders when you leave for Stromheim which was: "Attack the horde If an opportunity presents itself")
Genn did a good deed for a bad reason, and to most of the forsaken (Who will likely be kept in the dark about what was going on behind the scenes) it was an unprovoked attack, because it was an unprovoked attack. Genn may have stopped sylvanas, but he didn't do it for reasons related to Eyir or Odyn he did it to spite sylvanas and the forsaken, specifically in an attempt to take the forsaken's future away from them.

Genn likely will get off scot free if he plays his cards right, because he did do a good dead, but he still ignored the kings ordered and attacked the Horde on very flimsy evidence.
04/09/2018 07:27 AMPosted by Pellex
04/08/2018 11:50 PMPosted by Kelisaria
You say that like it's a good thing that Anduin will never be that nuanced or well-written with actual motivations and flaws. Frankly, him being the glorious and perfect holy light spawn that is pure goodness and hugs is repulsive and stupid.

I can't seem to find my earlier post now (wish they'd fix the forum post history), but I've said before that I think it's possible to have interesting stories about fundamentally good characters. The key is that their goodness has to be tested in difficult circumstances, particularly in circumstances where there's no obvious right answer.

For example, what if an Alliance commander went rogue, attacked the Horde without permission, maybe in a dishonorable manner ... and won a major victory? Would Anduin discipline the commander? Even if public opinion was on the commander's side, and disciplining him would make Anduin unpopular? Would Anduin accept the spoils of the victory? What if it was something the Alliance badly needed (supplies, strategic territory) and not accepting it would lead to more deaths on the Alliance side?

I'd want to know the answers to those questions.


It looks like we're spoiling for that with Graymane. Genn is nothing if not ruthless and he will push Anduin to the limit at some point.
04/09/2018 01:09 PMPosted by Reallyhappy
and to most of the forsaken (Who will likely be kept in the dark about what was going on behind the scenes)


We do find out that word of a good portion of what Sylvanas did in Stormheim, namely trying to Enslave Eyir to get more Val'kyr, has made it way back to undercity, and a good portion of forsaken have taken concern with that, especially those in the newly form desolate council government

Probably to Sylvanas' relief, her Deal with Helya seems to still be secret
04/09/2018 01:16 PMPosted by Throren
We do find out that word of a good portion of what Sylvanas did in Stormheim, namely trying to Enslave Eyir to get more Val'kyr, has made it way back to undercity, and a good portion of forsaken have taken concern with that, especially those in the newly form desolate council government


Can't wait for Lydon to say Genn Greymane did nothing wrong :D
04/09/2018 01:16 PMPosted by Throren
We do find out that word of a good portion of what Sylvanas did in Stormheim, namely trying to Enslave Eyir to get more Val'kyr, has made it way back to undercity, and a good portion of forsaken have taken concern with that, especially those in the newly form desolate council government
Well, they say rumors have gotten back. And some on the Desolate Council harbor reservations about what she wants for them. To clarify.
Honestly if the Forsaken take issues with it i'm gonna be more cool then if any other horde race did

Seeing Sylvanas' plan backfire so massively that her very own people are pissed about it is really funny.
04/09/2018 01:22 PMPosted by Irenaus
Well, they say rumors have gotten back. And some on the Desolate Council harbor reservations about what she wants for them. To clarify.
The tiny snippet of desolate council information we've gotten seemed to me that they were demanding that she come back to UC and spend more time with them. They just seemed in love with her and lonely.
04/09/2018 12:01 PMPosted by Argronak
04/09/2018 10:10 AMPosted by Ronstin
...

You do remember that Liam, Genn, you, and others were all literally beating her to death at the time, right? She, Genn, and Liam were all legitimate military targets.


For invading Gilneas in the first place? Yes, she deserved to get that beating.


And they deserved it for delivering the beating. There are no innocent combatants. If you're a fighter on the battlefield, than both risking death and dealing it out are the expected behaviors for the medium and are neither moral nor immoral.
04/09/2018 01:09 PMPosted by Reallyhappy
Genn did a good deed for a bad reason, and to most of the forsaken (Who will likely be kept in the dark about what was going on behind the scenes) it was an unprovoked attack, because it was an unprovoked attack. Genn may have stopped sylvanas, but he didn't do it for reasons related to Eyir or Odyn he did it to spite sylvanas and the forsaken, specifically in an attempt to take the forsaken's future away from them.

Genn likely will get off scot free if he plays his cards right, because he did do a good dead, but he still ignored the kings ordered and attacked the Horde on very flimsy evidence.


You. I like you. At the moment.

04/09/2018 01:35 PMPosted by Ronstin
04/09/2018 12:01 PMPosted by Argronak
...

For invading Gilneas in the first place? Yes, she deserved to get that beating.


And they deserved it for delivering the beating. There are no innocent combatants. If you're a fighter on the battlefield, than both risking death and dealing it out are the expected behaviors for the medium and are neither moral nor immoral.


Then why are we all so triggered by morality and who started what?
04/09/2018 01:09 PMPosted by Reallyhappy
Genn did a good deed for a bad reason, and to most of the forsaken (Who will likely be kept in the dark about what was going on behind the scenes) it was an unprovoked attack, because it was an unprovoked attack. Genn may have stopped sylvanas, but he didn't do it for reasons related to Eyir or Odyn he did it to spite sylvanas and the forsaken, specifically in an attempt to take the forsaken's future away from them.

Genn likely will get off scot free if he plays his cards right, because he did do a good dead, but he still ignored the kings ordered and attacked the Horde on very flimsy evidence.


A good deed from an Alliance point of view. From the Forsaken point of view, it was a genocidal act of hatred, as you point out.

Edit: And I don't understand why Blizzard isn't making more of that point to help motivate Horde players. Have Sylvanas give a big speech rallying the troops in Orgrimmar:

"Brothers and sisters of the Horde, I come before you as your Warchief. This is not a position that I desired, but Vol'jin himself chose me, and together we defied the might of Sargeras and his Burning Legion.

But now we face another threat, a threat that also strikes at our very existence. The Alliance.

The humans and their allies have always hated us. When Thrall left the Eastern Kingdoms to lead his people to new life on this continent, they pursued him. They attacked the Darkspeare on their islands, tried to murder all of the Bilgewater, sent dwarves to tear up the ancestral lands of the Tauren. The haughty Night Elves infiltrated Evensong Wood; they even rejected their nearest kin, the Nightborne. And the humans have never relinquished their claim on Lordaeron, vowing to take it from my people, the Forsaken who lived, fought and died for that land.

We thought we could work with them. But even in the face of the Burning Legion, they turned on us. The cowardly Greymane broke our truce to attack the Horde in Stormheim. And even as we speak Alliance forces are attacking and killing the Horde in Silithus. They desire a weapon that will give them the means to destroy us.

The last Alliance High King once threatened to "end" the Horde, and it is clear that his son wishes to follow through on that boastful threat.

But I will never allow it. WE will never allow it. Together, we will fight for our place in this world. We will defy the warmongers of the Alliance and show them what it means to face the united might of the Horde.

LOK'TAR OGAR!

FOR THE HORDE!"

That's what I would have her do.

PS: The above is obviously written from Sylvanas' perspectives and with an intent to rally the Horde, so please don't post criticisms arguing about the facts. That isn't the point.
04/09/2018 01:36 PMPosted by Arlifrex
04/09/2018 01:09 PMPosted by Reallyhappy
Genn did a good deed for a bad reason, and to most of the forsaken (Who will likely be kept in the dark about what was going on behind the scenes) it was an unprovoked attack, because it was an unprovoked attack. Genn may have stopped sylvanas, but he didn't do it for reasons related to Eyir or Odyn he did it to spite sylvanas and the forsaken, specifically in an attempt to take the forsaken's future away from them.

Genn likely will get off scot free if he plays his cards right, because he did do a good dead, but he still ignored the kings ordered and attacked the Horde on very flimsy evidence.


You. I like you. At the moment.

04/09/2018 01:35 PMPosted by Ronstin
...

And they deserved it for delivering the beating. There are no innocent combatants. If you're a fighter on the battlefield, than both risking death and dealing it out are the expected behaviors for the medium and are neither moral nor immoral.


Then why are we all so triggered by morality and who started what?


Because we like to lie to ourselves and rationalize higher purposes to our behavior and emotions than is actually the case.
04/09/2018 02:32 AMPosted by Lena
Maybe because Stormwind sent people to assassinate her? But nah, it's totally just because she's an evil war-monger, couldn't possibly be Stormwind's fault.


LOL Lena is saying stuff again and telling only half the story. Maybe if you didn't cherry-pick so much people would take you more seriously.

Ha ha! Poor poor Sylvanas, never did nuthin' to nobody; A saintly one she is! oh woe is her! Why da' Alliance so mean?

Why that meanie Greymane always pickin' on her? All she ever did was kill ONE of his kids, he's got another! What's the big deal?

Come off of it, The lady is so cartoonishly evil she makes me and the rest of the Ebon Blade look like the neighborhood bullies.
04/09/2018 01:49 PMPosted by Crojak
Why that meanie Greymane always pickin' on her? All she ever did was kill ONE of his kids, he's got another! What's the big deal?
Technically, did she even kill liam? She fired an arrow, and seeing it in flight he jumped in front of it on purpose. I'm not even sure that counts as manslaughter.

If Sarah rolls a bowling ball down a bowling lane, and Cletus runs down the lane and leaps in front of it, did Sarah hit Cletus with a bowling ball?
04/09/2018 06:50 AMPosted by Fondant
Yes.... yesssss.... let your hate fuel your self-righteousness. We're going to need people like you for the Alliance villain expansion.


Let's slow this smug-train down a bit shall we? Let's say you are correct and for once we play the Villains. what's with this high and mighty act? This would be us playing the villain versus how many times has red team been the bad guys now?

Something, something, glass houses. Something, something, pot-kettle and all that.
04/09/2018 01:57 PMPosted by Threeslotbag
Technically, did she even kill liam? She fired an arrow, and seeing it in flight he jumped in front of it on purpose. I'm not even sure that counts as manslaughter.

If Sarah rolls a bowling ball down a bowling lane, and Cletus runs down the lane and leaps in front of it, did Sarah hit Cletus with a bowling ball?


Speak up please, I can barely hear you over the sound of your rationalizing.
04/09/2018 01:57 PMPosted by Threeslotbag
04/09/2018 01:49 PMPosted by Crojak
Why that meanie Greymane always pickin' on her? All she ever did was kill ONE of his kids, he's got another! What's the big deal?
Technically, did she even kill liam? She fired an arrow, and seeing it in flight he jumped in front of it on purpose. I'm not even sure that counts as manslaughter.

If Sarah rolls a bowling ball down a bowling lane, and Cletus runs down the lane and leaps in front of it, did Sarah hit Cletus with a bowling ball?


To be fair, even if his death was of his own choosing, there is a good chance she would have killed Liam with no qulams right after offing Genn.

and besides Liam, then you have the thousands of other Gilneans she killed or ordered to be killed and turning his homeland onto a roxic wasteland, he has a good reason to be pissed still I'd say

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