Blizz Officially Says Horde Is Evil. Or Not.

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04/13/2018 06:27 PMPosted by Regas
I think you're conveniently overlooking the fact that the Forsaken have been actively murdering any living remnants of Lordaeron


Only Hostiles, the Humans generally start the conflict against the forsaken.

Anyone who did horde questing can tell you this.
04/13/2018 06:27 PMPosted by Regas
04/13/2018 06:11 PMPosted by Ronstin
...

Well, it's what the Alliance partisans have been insisting on for "reclaiming" Lordaeron since forever so. . . yes?


I think you're conveniently overlooking the fact that the Forsaken have been actively murdering any living remnants of Lordaeron if they are hostile or not,


Nonsense. There's no indication they've been actively murdering Argents who weren't themselves attacking us, for instance. But so what if they were? How does that make Stormwind's efforts to "relciaim" Lordaeron for humanity any less imperialist?

So yes, to call it reclaiming would be accurate since those Forsaken are but twisted parodies of the former humans they were.


They're the rightful landholders, in life and into death. Take your Vryin-spouting RP over to World's End, I'm not at a tabletop with you and I resent your efforts to force your RP on me.


I have 0 sympathy for the Forsaken, they fully deserve what they get. They are, by far, the most evil playable race. There are exceptions, of course, but as a whole that race is rotten. (figuratively and literally)


Right, right. Because you perversely think evil lies in the moral status of your victim rather than your action taken or your intent behind it, where all morality actually lies.
That translation is pretty awful. I have a hard time taking anything from it that relies on the detail of what is said.
04/12/2018 09:16 AMPosted by Carmageddon
Keep in mind that the source is in translation. I think he is suggesting that the way Blizzard released part of the story made the Horde seem evil, but that was not Blizzard's intention ("This is our mistake...").

In other words, I think he is acknowledging that the Horde seems kinda evil right now, but that forthcoming information will change that perspective.

We'll see.


I do hope that this is true. Lets not forget the part where he talk about the alliance attack not being for justice.
04/12/2018 11:15 AMPosted by Eroving
Blizzard also say the Forsaken aren't mind controlled, despite it making absolutely zero sense that anybody would, within seconds of being raised, turn on their friends and allies on the side of the people who just killed you.


If they're feral they should turn on the Forsaken as well, not instantly be sheparded around by them like loyal soldiers. Let's assume they don't attack other undead (which also makes no sense but w/e),


Fighting against human is more surprisingly, but hating them and staying with forsaken make a lot of sense. Yes at first they would try to fight them, but they would end up staying with them.

Let just talk about a normal human soldier. All he's life people told him that the undead were monster, that we needed to kill them. One day when his was a soldier fighting undead as usual, he end up being kill. Suddenly,he woke up, he dont know how many time pass between the time that he lost conscience and the time he woke up but for him it was only one second.

At first,he saw a bunch of undead around him trying to aboard him. He s first reaction,out of fear, is to fight them and flee. Like everyone that would be in this situation, he attempt to return in his city where he could be safe. By chance, he manage to do it. But when he enter in the city, he did not receive the help that he was waiting for. Instead of that, people start attacking him and call him a monster. Since people were treating him like a enemy, he try to reach he's family, that he believe would take his side and help him. Unfortunately, even his own family see him like a monster. In shock and in fear, he run away from the city since everyone want to kill him.

After a while of loneliness in the wood, he come across some undead. At first he is scared, but find out that they dont want to hurt him. One of the undead finally make him understand that before being dead, they were like him. And now, just by being dead, he is now one of those monster for his family, even if for him, he is the same exact person that he was before being kill. And even if he though that he was ready to die, he understand that he still wanted to live but since the living fear him and he does not want to live alone, the undead were the only one that could become a family to live with.

And now he is there, with the people that he also fight against and called monster.

One of the reality of life is the more you threat someone like if he was a monster, the more he will become one.
Sylvanas has been using chemical weapons since cataclysum.

No one in the horde seems to have any problem with how utterly evil sylvanas is and helped her try stuff like enslaving the Valkyr.
If i dare to say it, The Arcane Rads created something else inside of jaina's mind, if you look at chronicles, Death Knight/LK Arthas was born from Arthas Insecurities and negative traits after his soul was taken by Frostmoune, an Construct soul at most made by ner'zhul as Chronicles 3 stated it, Maybe is now dealing with something on the same pair, but instead of become evil as arthas became, she's fighting against that newish personality, born from every single regret and insecurities that she had, and now she will deal with that during KT campaign, and we will bring old good jaina back, but renewed.

04/12/2018 10:25 AMPosted by Threeslotbag
04/12/2018 10:11 AMPosted by Xoroth
Of course horde is the bad guys.

Horde = Red

Red = Bad Guys

Horde = Bad Guys.
In Star Wars why are the X-wing's lasers red, and the Tie Fighter's Green?


GREEN IZ DA ORKIEST COLOR!
RED GOES FASTA!
BLACK IZ 'ARD!
BLU IZ DA LUCKIEST EVAH!
WHITE IZ DANGEROUS!
YELLOW IZ RICH!

AND PURPLE IZ DA SNEKIEST COLOR! Hence why uz eva seen an Purple ork!
04/12/2018 09:16 AMPosted by Carmageddon
In other words, I think he is acknowledging that the Horde seems kinda evil right now, but that forthcoming information will change that perspective.

We'll see.

What possible context could make the Stormsong attack NOT look like the Horde is evil?
04/13/2018 06:48 PMPosted by Reallyhappy
04/13/2018 06:27 PMPosted by Regas
I think you're conveniently overlooking the fact that the Forsaken have been actively murdering any living remnants of Lordaeron


Only Hostiles, the Humans generally start the conflict against the forsaken.

Anyone who did horde questing can tell you this.


Eh, in Tirisfal maybe, but in Silverpine/Gilneas and Hillsbrad it never felt so clear cut.
04/15/2018 06:46 AMPosted by Diomades

GREEN IZ DA ORKIEST COLOR!
RED GOES FASTA!
BLACK IZ 'ARD!
BLU IZ DA LUCKIEST EVAH!
WHITE IZ DANGEROUS!
YELLOW IZ RICH!

AND PURPLE IZ DA SNEKIEST COLOR! Hence why uz eva seen an Purple ork!


DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!
04/12/2018 10:24 AMPosted by Shippyship
Continuing down this hypothetical rabbit hole just because I'm bored and don't want to work, Stormwind relatively isn't very far from N'zoth's dot on the map of old Azeroth and it's name comes from storms caused by ley line patterns in the mountains nearby. Just as the siege of orgrimmar half takes place in a giant underground complex that came out of nowhere, they could say there's an ancient temple to N'zoth underneath stormwind.


If N'Zoth's cell is under Stormwind than it will most likely be accessed from the Vault.
04/15/2018 12:52 PMPosted by Kintha
What possible context could make the Stormsong attack NOT look like the Horde is evil?


Well, off the top of my head the following context can change Stormsong so it doesn't make the Horde evil.

1. It wasn't the Horde attacking Stormsong.
2. The Village of Stormsong, every man woman and child, are evil and the Alliance doesn't learn about it until later in questing.

You're welcome.
04/16/2018 10:27 AMPosted by Fondant

2. The Village of Stormsong, every man woman and child, are evil and the Alliance doesn't learn about it until later in questing.

You're welcome.


The victims being evil doesn't do a damn thing to determine whether the Horde's actions were evil or not.
04/16/2018 11:03 AMPosted by Ronstin
04/16/2018 10:27 AMPosted by Fondant

2. The Village of Stormsong, every man woman and child, are evil and the Alliance doesn't learn about it until later in questing.

You're welcome.


The victims being evil doesn't do a damn thing to determine whether the Horde's actions were evil or not.
I think most people accept doing certain things to 'evil' people make them more acceptable. Which the implication that said evil actions are also abusive or inflicted upon others outside their group.
04/16/2018 11:03 AMPosted by Ronstin
The victims being evil doesn't do a damn thing to determine whether the Horde's actions were evil or not.


The "victims" being evil changes the range of possible motives for the attack and THAT changes whether the Horde's actions are evil.

Remember, so far what we have for motives is a note that says "ALL WILL SERVE" and then a bunch of wild speculation.
04/16/2018 11:07 AMPosted by Floren
04/16/2018 11:03 AMPosted by Ronstin
...

The victims being evil doesn't do a damn thing to determine whether the Horde's actions were evil or not.
I think most people accept doing certain things to 'evil' people make them more acceptable. Which the implication that said evil actions are also abusive or inflicted upon others outside their group.


It's called dehumanization and it's a standard rationalization for avoiding the cognitive dissonance created by the delusion that one is a good and moral person despite advocating or directly implementing decidedly evil actions. The sort of thing which enables "the banality of evil"
04/16/2018 11:21 AMPosted by Ronstin
04/16/2018 11:07 AMPosted by Floren
... I think most people accept doing certain things to 'evil' people make them more acceptable. Which the implication that said evil actions are also abusive or inflicted upon others outside their group.


It's called dehumanization and it's a standard rationalization for avoiding the cognitive dissonance created by the delusion that one is a good and moral person despite advocating or directly implementing decidedly evil actions. The sort of thing which enables "the banality of evil"
Do you think it is fine to enact punishment upon people you consider are enacting immoral actions upon others?
04/16/2018 11:31 AMPosted by Floren
04/16/2018 11:21 AMPosted by Ronstin
...

It's called dehumanization and it's a standard rationalization for avoiding the cognitive dissonance created by the delusion that one is a good and moral person despite advocating or directly implementing decidedly evil actions. The sort of thing which enables "the banality of evil"
Do you think it is fine to enact punishment upon people you consider are enacting immoral actions upon others?


I think it's fine to prevent them from continuing to do so and to try and rehabilitate them so that they can be with regular society without trying to inflict pain or damage on others I think a penal system focused on punishment instead perpetuates such cycles of action. Methods to prevent and rehabilitate might range from moral to immoral. Immoral actions might be fine and acceptable if they are effective and themselves minimize harm, to those they're inflicted on and on the rest of society. Morality is not the be-all end-all. Effectiveness is, but I think effectiveness can be tempered by morality. As such, it is critically important that if and when immorality is called for, we don't lose sight of that fact that it remains immoral.
04/16/2018 11:56 AMPosted by Ronstin
I think it's fine to prevent them from continuing to do so and to try and rehabilitate them so that they can be with regular society without trying to inflict pain or damage on others I think a penal system focused on punishment instead perpetuates such cycles of action.
Fair enough. I would largely agree. By punishment, I mainly meant, we can enact measures against someone that would normally be unacceptable on others. Like imprisonment.
Methods to prevent and rehabilitate might range from moral to immoral. Immoral actions might be fine and acceptable if they are effective and themselves minimize harm, to those they're inflicted on and on the rest of society. Morality is not the be-all end-all. Effectiveness is, but I think effectiveness can be tempered by morality. As such, it is critically important that if and when immorality is called for, we don't lose sight of that fact that it remains immoral.
What do you mean by fine/acceptable in this context?
Especially in regards to your last sentence, I always feel like I don't see eye to eye with other people on this. If something is called for, if that's the correct thing to do in that instance, then I wouldn't consider it immoral. Unless I'm just not following.
04/13/2018 06:48 PMPosted by Reallyhappy
04/13/2018 06:27 PMPosted by Regas
I think you're conveniently overlooking the fact that the Forsaken have been actively murdering any living remnants of Lordaeron


Only Hostiles, the Humans generally start the conflict against the forsaken.

Anyone who did horde questing can tell you this.


Maybe in regards to Scarlets and Hillsbrad folk, yea. But Gilneas was ALL you...

As well as you kinda made it your problem after killing Garithos, who despite being the Twin Brother of Garrosh, was gonna let them walk away.

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