The alliance need to be better antagonists.

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04/16/2018 08:39 AMPosted by Pellex
04/16/2018 08:33 AMPosted by Abendrothe
I get that impression when I play Horde.

From which quests or scenes? Any of them date from post-MoP? (I'm genuinely interested to know, because I want to know what you're seeing that I'm not.)


Almost everything from the conquest of Ashenvale onwards. Notice the difference between Silverwind Refuge and Taurajo. In the case of Silverwind, water elementals were used to force Night elves into retreat from the safety of the refuge, where they were promptly slaughtered outside. None were spared. With Taurajo, the Tauren were allowed to flee. Now, the Tauren later died to quillboar, but after the Tauren were able to flee it was no longer the Alliance's responsibility. The point is the Alliance went at least that one extra step to show good faith. The Horde killed all.

I'm not arguing Horde should or shouldn't have done whatever, or that Alliance should've done more or shouldn't have. It's old content. My point is that the differences between these two similar instances are as stark as night and day.

Another instance is Theramore being nuked. Again, I'm not arguing whether or not Horde should've done it. They did. But can you honestly see the Alliance doing the same thing? Even when they had the chance to, they didn't. Even when Jaina had a chance to completely drown Orgrimmar, she didn't. We don't know what Anduin would've done with Undercity, because Sylvanas robs the Alliance of that moment.

It's possible the Alliance could've slaughtered everyone there, but given that Anduin spares Saurfang, I doubt it. We don't have any indication that Anduin's motivations are to purge all undead, just to take UC.

04/16/2018 08:35 AMPosted by Floren
And it also doesn't quite often.


This is one of the cases where it does. Genn really only seems to want Sylvanas. Rogers is a recurring minor character like Nazgrim and doesn't have nearly enough pull. She's not a faction leader. She can't say "I want these Horde wiped out". Nobody cares or listens to what Tyrande has to say. She doesn't really have the power any more to pull that kind of trigger since the Night elves seem to be nearly lost. Even if she got really, really mad with Anduin and stomped her foot and threw a fit, if he says no then what's she going to do? Take her severely reduced faction and leave? Take her annihilated manpower and attempt to do it herself?
Almost everything from the conquest of Ashenvale onwards.

Onwards to ... where? To Siege of Orgrimmar, or to the current time in-game? Because I don't feel like what happened in MoP applies to my character's motivations right now. I haven't had any sense that the Horde as a group is just itching for the chance to try wiping out the Alliance again.
04/16/2018 09:01 AMPosted by Pellex
Almost everything from the conquest of Ashenvale onwards.

Onwards to ... where? To Siege of Orgrimmar, or to the current time in-game? Because I don't feel like what happened in MoP applies to my character's motivations right now. I haven't had any sense that the Horde as a group is just itching for the chance to try wiping out the Alliance again.


Same. I mean, if anything, most of the Horde quests that target Alliance interests are framed as, basically, mischief. "Mess with their !@#$ because it's funny," not "Kill them all and pee on their houses"
Onwards to ... where? To Siege of Orgrimmar, or to the current time in-game? Because I don't feel like what happened in MoP applies to me as a Horde player right now.


Onwards up to the MoP, yes. With a big gap with WoD and Legion since while those two expansions had some relatively minor conflicts, it wasn't a focus like Cata/MOP, and now BFA.

And even if you don't feel like the past effects the future, you just need to look to my current example.

The Alliance kills a few miners to stop them from getting Azerite.

The Horde tears through Ashenvale and Darkshore, and likely burns down Teldrassil.

These two acts are both acts conducted in war, but one of them is vastly more pronounced than the other.

Sylvanas will not show mercy, her orders will not reflect mercy. She doesn't care what her troops do, as long as they finish the job. She has no compunctions against brutality. In fact, she favors such tactics to get her message across. Do you think Anduin would respond in the same way? Even if Genn told him to, do you see Anduin showing no mercy?
04/16/2018 01:13 AMPosted by Bronnix
04/15/2018 09:55 PMPosted by Rokugan
Wars don't need to happen over resources or territory. The Crusades were motivated entirely by boredom and religious zeal.


No the Crusades were sparked by the Muslim invasion of Europe and the Holy Land.

The Muslims had been living in the Holy Land for 400 years, it had been conquered long before, and the motivation for the common folk was 'Deus Vult.' This included a massive 'peasant Crusade' before the actual wars even began, where a bunch of peasants, bored and poor, tried to invade by themselves out of zeal.

Also, they literally called it the Holy Land. There's a significant amount of zeal there.
Notice the difference between Silverwind Refuge and Taurajo. In the case of Silverwind, water elementals were used to force Night elves into retreat from the safety of the refuge, where they were promptly slaughtered outside. None were spared.
There were survivors of that attack. They are at Stardust Spire.
Even when Jaina had a chance to completely drown Orgrimmar, she didn't.
Not for lack of trying. Thrall had to stop numerous attempts first. So yes, she seemed plenty willing at the time. And even at Orgrimmar, she encouraged the Horde be dismantled. So those are two very different outcomes.
04/16/2018 08:57 AMPosted by Abendrothe
This is one of the cases where it does.
No, because you're asserting what would happen in the future, so it very well couldn't.
04/16/2018 08:57 AMPosted by Abendrothe
Genn really only seems to want Sylvanas.
He also told Forsaken he was fighting they 'have no place in this world'.
04/16/2018 08:57 AMPosted by Abendrothe
Rogers is a recurring minor character like Nazgrim and doesn't have nearly enough pull. She's not a faction leader. She can't say "I want these Horde wiped out".
And? You claimed history would repeat itself. Previous history involved them sparing the Horde and walking away. Unless that's literally what you think will happen again, it isn't repetition.
04/16/2018 08:57 AMPosted by Abendrothe
Nobody cares or listens to what Tyrande has to say.
So this an Alliance anymore? What Tyrande or Genn, both leaders of nations, think. These things don't matter?
04/16/2018 09:07 AMPosted by Abendrothe
The Alliance kills a few miners to stop them from getting Azerite.

The Horde tears through Ashenvale and Darkshore, and likely burns down Teldrassil.

Yes, and that's the problem. You say that Horde players should be okay with it because "it's just what we do," but the writers have not convinced us that that's what we do.

Lots of things have changed since MoP. We HAD the Siege of Orgrimmar; that affects our attitude about doing it again. We're on our second warchief since then already. We as player characters have hardly even bothered with our faction for a whole expansion, during which we also worked closely with several Alliance leaders. It's been what, three-four years of real time? And not one Horde NPC (that I can remember) has kept up any sort of drumbeat about wiping out the Alliance or even about hating them.

If the devs want Horde players to think that the Horde is always ready to go on a rampage and wipe out the Alliance at the drop of a feather, then they need to portray the Horde like that in internal Horde quests. And they're not.
04/16/2018 09:17 AMPosted by Floren
There were survivors of that attack. They are at Stardust Spire.


Then that is not for lack of trying, just some really lucky elves.

04/16/2018 09:17 AMPosted by Floren
Not for lack of trying. Thrall had to stop numerous attempts first. So yes, she seemed plenty willing at the time. And even at Orgrimmar, she encouraged the Horde be dismantled. So those are two very different outcomes.


But she didn't, is the thing. She didn't drown Orgrimmar, and she didn't press the issue to dismantle the Horde. She was eventually talked down from her intentions, and she accepted Varian's decision not to dismantle. Unless we get some sort of future characterization that she actually didn't and allowed Varian to die on Broken shore for political expediency.

No, because you're asserting what would happen in the future, so it very well couldn't.


It will have to. Again, because the Alliance nor the Horde can end up winning. If Alliance wins, it's easy to see them showing clemency time and again. Sylvanas will not show mercy. This is why the Horde cannot win. Because it will not end with staking claim to borders. She has every intention of destroying Teldrassil. She won't stop there.

With Anduin, we don't know, but educated guesses are on the side of him coming out of this like his father did.

He also told Forsaken he was fighting they 'have no place in this world'.


Okay, Genn wants the Forsaken too. After he wipes out the Forsaken, then what? We don't know. He voted no on internment camps, but characterization since Cata might change his tune. But even if he votes no on it, it's not his decision to make. He's not the one calling that kind of shot, if it came down to it.

04/16/2018 09:17 AMPosted by Floren
So this an Alliance anymore? What Tyrande or Genn, both leaders of nations, think. These things don't matter?


Nope. At the end of the day, it's Anduin's call. If either of them disobey, I don't see there being anything beyond reprimands. Anything they do will not be what he has ordered.
If the devs want Horde players to think that the Horde is always ready to go on a rampage and wipe out the Alliance at the drop of a feather, then they need to portray the Horde like that. And they're not.


You acknowledge that Sylvanas goes above and beyond the measures needed, but that they're not going to be ruthless when it comes to dealing with Alliance?

I'm not arguing what Horde players should be okay with, I'm arguing about what's written. And what's written is that Sylvanas will not have a place for mercy for enemies just like Garrosh before her.

I don't think this will end in SoO 2.0. However, I am saying that if it came down to it, that's how it would have to end. Because Sylvanas will not stop until the Alliance no longer pose a threat. The Horde cannot win faction conflicts because of this, and the Alliance can only "win" in the sense that they bail out when it comes to victory conditions.

Of course there is no sense of either faction wiping the other out now. Because so far we just have some skirmishes between Genn and Sylvanas. But this will become apparent in BFA when Sylvanas stops at nothing to stop the potential Alliance threat that exists only to her.
04/16/2018 08:15 AMPosted by Floren
And it is rational to assume history would repeat itself? Seems like a stretch.


The Alliance chose to imprison the Orcs rather than kill them. Jaina chose to have her father killed than join him, and the Alliance refused to retaliate. Jaina was convinced to not drown Orgrimmar. Varian chose to let the Horde keep their city.

Why would this war break the streak if the Alliance wins?
Then that is not for lack of trying, just some really lucky elves.
Is there text indicating their intent at the time to wipe them to the last?
But she didn't, is the thing.
That isn't the thing. The thing is that she was willing and tried multiple times. We are having a discussion about intent. Your question was this.
But can you honestly see the Alliance doing the same thing?
So yes, I can honestly see them doing the same given they've wholeheartedly tried before. Daelin also very intently tried to genocide the Orcs.
she accepted Varian's decision not to dismantle.
I mean, there wasn't much she could do at that point because Varian was the leader of the Alliance. He was in control of their military. Again, this is about what the Alliance is capable of.
It will have to.
It depends upon the circumstances involved.
04/16/2018 09:33 AMPosted by Abendrothe
If either of them disobey, I don't see there being anything beyond reprimands. Anything they do will not be what he has ordered.
So they can just do what they want. In which case, if the Horde is defeated, they can just run wild.
04/16/2018 09:43 AMPosted by Arlifrex
Why would this war break the streak if the Alliance wins?
Parts of the Alliance voted to have the Orcs put down. Daelin pursued them across the ocean to genocide them. Jaina did try to wipe them out and this was before the Purge where she felt betrayed again, now they are attacking her home country. Varian was very willing to put the Horde down in Wrath before he changed and now he's dead. Times change and there have always been elements of the Alliance that desire putting down the Horde.
04/16/2018 09:44 AMPosted by Floren
Is there text indicating their intent at the time to wipe them to the last?


There's no text to indicate they allowed those Night elves to escape either, not as such with Taurajo. It's safe to assume the Horde just killed as many as they could, isn't it? Since the NPCs there say that the look on the elves's faces was funny.

04/16/2018 09:44 AMPosted by Floren
That isn't the thing. The thing is that she was willing and tried multiple times. We are having a discussion about intent. Your question was this.
But can you honestly see the Alliance doing the same thing?
So yes, I can honestly see them doing the same given they've wholeheartedly tried before. Daelin also very intently tried to genocide the Orcs.


Yes, her intent was to drown Orgrimmar. Then her intent changed to not drown Orgrimmar. Jaina has flipflopped so many times that I can just as easily see her forgiving the Horde again, as I can see her becoming a raid boss. But any of her intentions to wipe out the Horde would not be followed up on by Anduin. At least, not with the current characterization we have on him.

04/16/2018 09:44 AMPosted by Floren
I mean, there wasn't much she could do at that point because Varian was the leader of the Alliance. He was in control of their military. Again, this is about what the Alliance is capable of.


The Alliance is capable of it, yes. There's motivation for them to do so as well. What I'm arguing is that this will not be the case, ever. And the Alliance will always default to showing the Horde mercy, and the Horde will always default to cannibalizing itself due to infighting over tactics and means.

So they can just do what they want. In which case, if the Horde is defeated, they can just run wild.


If they did disobey Anduin, I don't see them doing more than pulling another situation where the Alliance attacked the Stormheim fleet. I don't believe they will have their way with the Horde if that is the case though, because they didn't before. They could, but they won't. Just like the Horde could show the Alliance mercy. But they won't.
Pre-Cata, everyone knew the Horde was a weak joke that could never challenge the Alliance. So Blizz went overboard to make them seem like a existential threat.

Currently the Alliance doesn't seem like a threat to the Horde, and the Horde doesn't really have any reason to fight them.

Even if there was a plausible reason to fight, can't the 2 factions just use their words?
There's no text to indicate they allowed those Night elves to escape either, not as such with Taurajo. It's safe to assume the Horde just killed as many as they could, isn't it?
I'd say the matter is unclear, so there's no need to extend things beyond what we see.
But any of her intentions to wipe out the Horde would not be followed up on by Anduin.
It doesn't really need to be as long as another character holds the capability.
04/16/2018 09:56 AMPosted by Abendrothe
The Alliance is capable of it, yes. There's motivation for them to do so as well. What I'm arguing is that this will not be the case, ever.
Which is a meta-argument when the discussion was one as to in-game motivations. The Horde can still see the Alliance as an existential threat, they can still be presented that way, without the Alliance actually wiping them out. That was the discussion, that the Alliance show more willingness to make the Horde's actions seem more reasonable.
04/16/2018 09:56 AMPosted by Abendrothe
They could, but they won't. Just like the Horde could show the Alliance mercy. But they won't.
You're welcome to your opinion. Just don't pretend such things are a certainty.
04/16/2018 09:44 AMPosted by Floren
Parts of the Alliance voted to have the Orcs put down. Daelin pursued them across the ocean to genocide them. Jaina did try to wipe them out and this was before the Purge where she felt betrayed again, now they are attacking her home country. Varian was very willing to put the Horde down in Wrath before he changed and now he's dead. Times change and there have always been elements of the Alliance that desire putting down the Horde.


They were written as fringe, who weren't listened to. Times do change but certain elements are constant. The Alliance won't fight to wipe out the Horde, and as we've seen with MoP, won't disband either.

In any case, we know Blizzard won't go through with it, so what the Alliance wants as a faction is ultimately non-important.
04/16/2018 10:16 AMPosted by Arlifrex
They were written as fringe, who weren't listened to.
It wasn't that they weren't listened to. They had a discussion that was mostly a compromise. The Chronicle 2 said the compromise was 'if order could be maintained, they would keep the camps. If not, they would revisit execution.' Not to mention the other various instances I mentioned.
04/16/2018 10:16 AMPosted by Arlifrex
In any case, we know Blizzard won't go through with it, so what the Alliance wants as a faction is ultimately non-important.
It is important because what they are capable of, what their goal is, is meant to be the Horde's rationale for what they do. As was noted by a dev, Sylvanas feels the Alliance will never stop. For that to be reasonable to consider, we have to get that impression.
04/16/2018 10:05 AMPosted by Floren
I'd say the matter is unclear, so there's no need to extend things beyond what we see.


This seems like willful ignorance of the implications, but okay. That example means nothing.

The example of burning through two zones, and possibly destroying a capital does though.

Which is a meta-argument when the discussion was one as to in-game motivations. The Horde can still see the Alliance as an existential threat, they can still be presented that way, without the Alliance actually wiping them out. That was the discussion, that the Alliance show more willingness to make the Horde's actions seem more reasonable.


Yes, that's also what I was saying with my post before there was some argument over semantics. However, with my subsequent posts I've made it clear I'm pessimistic on this matter. Because the history does not show this.

04/16/2018 10:05 AMPosted by Floren
You're welcome to your opinion. Just don't pretend such things are a certainty.


Maybe Blizzard will surprise us. I'm not a betting man though.
04/16/2018 09:41 AMPosted by Abendrothe
You acknowledge that Sylvanas goes above and beyond the measures needed, but that they're not going to be ruthless when it comes to dealing with Alliance?

You mean when I said that setting up last-resort blight canisters was in-character for her? I don't see a contradiction. That's a defensive measure. It makes perfect sense to me why she'd want to have every last possible option available in the event that Undercity is besieged again. But no, I don't see how that translates to "Let's go out and attack the Alliance mercilessly right away." I'm not hearing anything about attacking the Alliance from Sylvanas; heck, I barely exchanged two words with Sylvanas during the entire last expansion.

It's possible that pre-patch events and Before the Storm may fill in some of the gaps, but as of now and for the last two expansions, I simply have not seen a Horde that's eager to attack the Alliance. I cannot think of a single Horde character who has even expressed an opinion on the possibility of doing so.

I'm not arguing what Horde players should be okay with, I'm arguing about what's written. And what's written is that Sylvanas will not have a place for mercy for enemies just like Garrosh before her.

What's not written is that Sylvanas has the desire to go on the offensive against the Alliance at this point in time (pre-BtS, pre-BfA). Or that others lower in the chain of command are eager for her to do so--you need more than just a determined commander to create the general "going too far" that you say defines the Horde experience.
Silverwind refuge.


Funny how there's no big retaliation questline for the alliance like Turajo got.
04/15/2018 11:41 PMPosted by Zerde
04/15/2018 10:57 PMPosted by Syriyna
Simply put, if they cant sell the Alliance as an antagonist, then the faction war is only being written for the alliance playerbase and the Horde is simply being treated as a target to satisfy alliance players.


Oh please, we all know many Horde fans have wanted this war as well! There is a reason the forsaken remain a fairly popular faction and that we still get bouts of "Garrosh was a great warchief" threads now and then. There are many Horde fans that enjoy being capable of starting crud and being less fettered by morality. There were threads CHEERING when Theramore was destroyed.

I'd say the story is also being written for Horde fans, but probably not for the portion that was interested in honor, redemption etc.


Cut the crap Zerde. This isn't popular with Horde players which should be obvious. Players want faction war on both sides true, but they want DECENT reasons to fight a war.

I am sure there is a portion of the Horde playerbase who doesn't care or even revels in it. There is a portion of the Alliance playerbase who want the Alliance to get darker too. In both cases they are far from the majority.

You don't care because this is basically a wet dream expansion for you, but don't try to sell me on a pile of excrement and pretend its great. I know now when what is presented to me is rubbish and I know when everyone I play with seems unhappy with it too. I am a primary horde player and I get clear first hand exposure to what is presented and currently it doesn't hold up.

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