Alliance High Elves as a Playable Race

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04/21/2018 10:15 AMPosted by Ïllyana
I imagine most of the people who would be switching to Alliance High Elves would be the ones who never wanted to be Horde in the first place.
Indeed, and many blood elves never wanted to be Horde in the first place, but they were willing to do so, so that they could be 'high elves'. That's the entire issue. And there are a lot of people that fall into this.
04/21/2018 10:18 AMPosted by Lorina
There are a lot of assumptions here, first of all that only blood elves will reroll high elves, second that only 25% would consider it (it's possible it could even be less, but what if half of them rerolled? It's not as far-fetched as you think it is. If alliance became appealing, more would come.), and furthermore that a 5%~ faction imbalance is 'no big deal'. That's substantial.

At level cap that's actually the imbalance on US realms favoring the Horde. It's ideal if 5% of the Horde switch, because that actually makes us more balanced.

I don't think anyone can know what can happen here though, calling out assumptions is fine but you're making some massive ones too. I think it's unreasonable to assume a large chunk of players will up and abandon their friends, guilds, all their alts and their faction just to play a different version of the Elf they have already.

Faction imbalance should be taken seriously but right now that swings AGAINST the Alliance, so any move is actually an improvement.
04/21/2018 10:18 AMPosted by Lorina
There are a lot of assumptions here, first of all that only blood elves will reroll high elves


This makes no logical sense. Why would Horde players who don't play Blood Elves faction change to High Elves? Why wouldn't they be playing Blood Elves already? If they wanted to play an elf they already can. They don't need to wait for High Elves to be a playable option.

second that only 25% would consider it (it's possible it could even be less, but what if half of them rerolled? It's not as far-fetched as you think it is. If alliance became appealing, more would come.), and furthermore that a 5%~ faction imbalance is 'no big deal'. That's substantial.


It wouldn't be a 5% imbalance. It would be a 3.3% imbalance in favor of the Alliance. Please read what I wrote. The current imbalance is 3.8% in favor of the Horde. If you don't think that that's a problem, then you shouldn't consider 3.3% in favor of the Alliance to be a problem, either.

And it'd only be 3.3% if fully 25% of all eligible Blood Elves faction changed to High Elves. Every faction change won't create faction imbalance, but reduce it, and the faction imbalance won't start growing again unless the number of Blood Elves who faction change hits 27% or higher (And even then, at 27%, it'd go from 3.8% to 3.9%. Hardly devastating).

So once again, do you seriously believe that a full 25% of all eligible Blood Elves are going to give up all the advantages they currently possess as members of the Horde and pay $30, just to play the same model but on the Alliance, instead?

I'm not saying that high elves shouldn't be playable, but rather that the risk of adding them needs to be taken seriously.


Except it's not a serious argument, as I illustrated above. It's totally absurd to think that 27% or more of existing Blood Elves will faction change. And that's what it'd take to slightly nudge the current imbalance up a fraction of a percentage.

It could have huge consequences and once this card is played, there is, again, virtually nothing Blizzard can do to reverse it. It is extremely risky, especially in the long term.


As I mentioned above, Blizzard no longer thinks of that as a concern due to CRZ. Secondly, yes there is. All the various popular Allied Race options for Horde which are better received than the so far mediocre selection for Alliance.

It would likely be as you say, at the very least for a single expansion, but over time more people would come, people coming to start playing the game would want high elves, it's not even just an issue of how many people will change factions as which faction will grow faster, and with high elves... that would almost certainly be Alliance.

This simply can't be taken lightly.


People coming to start playing the game would have to level a character to max on the Alliance, first, before they could play a High Elf. What do you think, then, new players would do? Play one character to max level to get the High Elf they want to play, or simply play the Blood Elf, which'll have access to classes that High Elves can't access, and likely have better racials, as well?

The Blood Elf population will be fine.
04/21/2018 10:23 AMPosted by Lorina
04/21/2018 10:15 AMPosted by Ïllyana
I imagine most of the people who would be switching to Alliance High Elves would be the ones who never wanted to be Horde in the first place.
Indeed, and many blood elves never wanted to be Horde in the first place, but they were willing to do so, so that they could be 'high elves'. That's the entire issue. And there are a lot of people that fall into this.
A lot, some, a legion, a ton, none of us have hard numbers except @Azrael.

Largely the only faction switchers purely for a character model or just to be alliance side will be among Roleplayers first and foremost.

Hardcore players won't leave a wider class selection, better racials and established guilds for that.

As for non blood elves leaving, well than why should they have to stay horde side? I mean if they play a troll but dislike it so much you'd think they'd pick another horde race since clearly they like hordeside but hat the visuals. More over the only bleed out if any would be blood elves and most likely Roleplayers and it would have to be a massive migration before it negatively impacts Horde numbers.

Finally, the Horde has gotten a ton of good looking races. First Trolls, Zandi Trolls, upright green orcs, the OG Mag'har and will still have blood elves and that 3edge5me persona. Horde will be fine.

Finally Ian himself said faction population balance does not matter. So why should we care? With LFG, Raid Finder, BG grouping across server, the merging of PvP and PvE servers, none those concerns matter at all.

Finally if you run a horde guild and you cannot keep members due to a new Ally side race with like so-so racials and constricted class selection, than your guild sucks dude.
04/21/2018 10:23 AMPosted by Lorina
Indeed, and many blood elves never wanted to be Horde in the first place, but they were willing to do so, so that they could be 'high elves'. That's the entire issue. And there are a lot of people that fall into this.


Answer this question: Do you think that number equals 27% of the eligible Blood Elf player base or higher? Do you really think that it's more than 1-in-4?
04/21/2018 10:23 AMPosted by Lorina
04/21/2018 10:15 AMPosted by Ïllyana
I imagine most of the people who would be switching to Alliance High Elves would be the ones who never wanted to be Horde in the first place.
Indeed, and many blood elves never wanted to be Horde in the first place, but they were willing to do so, so that they could be 'high elves'. That's the entire issue. And there are a lot of people that fall into this.

I'm sorry but I don't even know how to begin responding when your concern is pretty much "People will definitely want them, therefore I don't think it's a good idea to give it to them."

Not to mention, denying people from finally being able to play what they want in the faction they want.

Also, not trying to be hostile, but I also don't understand how you start your reply to what Azrael posted with "There are a lot of assumptions here", when everything you've raised in your first post are based entirely on assumptions as well.
there are people who honestly believe that this
https://youtu.be/F5BzY_eGIo0?t=228
is gonna be able to compete with this
https://youtu.be/it3kXfikeO8?t=438
04/21/2018 10:31 AMPosted by Píñkÿ
there are people who honestly believe that this
https://youtu.be/F5BzY_eGIo0?t=228


Oh, man. The sleep animation was brutal. It looked like she was crying herself to sleep.
Blood Elves, for the longest time, were the only good-looking (subjective) race on the Horde. (now also NB, ZT, MGO, and Orcs)
Blood Elves, for the longest time, were the only Paladin on the Horde. (now 1/2)
Blood Elves are the only Demon Hunters on the Horde.
Blood Elves, for the entirety of Legion, had an immensely OP racial (because of M+).
Blood Elves look cool, and have their own completely separate history, culture and themes.

I'm sure people who play Blood Elves for any of the above reasons vastly outnumber people who play Blood Elves, because they want to pretend to be High Elves, since you can pretend to be a High Elf on Alliance anyway.

<--------
04/21/2018 10:31 AMPosted by Azrael
04/21/2018 10:23 AMPosted by Lorina
Indeed, and many blood elves never wanted to be Horde in the first place, but they were willing to do so, so that they could be 'high elves'. That's the entire issue. And there are a lot of people that fall into this.


Answer this question: Do you think that number equals 27% of the eligible Blood Elf player base or higher?


The problem is that I don't know. And it's an irrelevant question because it does not cover a number of possibilities, including new players, and rerolls from races that are not blood elves, or even rerolls to the Alliance -- who might suddenly have a better and/or bigger faction because of faction imbalance -- that are not to high elves to begin with.

You can't make a strawman argument out of this and use it as a basepoint to stand by. There are simply too many variables. My post wasn't to say high elves are impossible or shouldn't be added, simply to say that adding them is risky, and it's being dramatically underplayed.

The risk needs to be recognized, acknowledged, and it needs to be considered. Look for ways to manage it, and high elves will directly become more likely and viable. Ignore it, and your case does not become any stronger. High elves already are a perfectly viable playable race except for this blatant danger -- is that not clear by now?
04/21/2018 10:34 AMPosted by Loken
Blood Elves, for the longest time, were the only good-looking (subjective) race on the Horde. (now also NB, ZT, MGO, and Orcs)
Blood Elves, for the longest time, were the only Paladin on the Horde. (now 1/2)
Blood Elves are the only Demon Hunters on the Horde.
Blood Elves, for the entirety of Legion, had an immensely OP racial (because of M+).
Blood Elves look cool, and have their own completely separate history, culture and themes.

I'm sure people who play Blood Elves for any of the above reasons vastly outnumber people who play Blood Elves, because they want to pretend to be High Elves, since you can pretend to be a High Elf on Alliance anyway.

<--------
The likely race changes will be within the Alliance or Blood Elf Roleplayers who don't like the RP scene.
Vanilla had faction imbalance.

They added a cool race to Horde.

If adding a cool race to the Alliance causes faction imbalance to the Horde, they can simply give another cool race to the Horde, like they did in BC.

*magic*
I'm sure people who play Blood Elves for any of the above reasons vastly outnumber people who play Blood Elves, because they want to pretend to be High Elves, since you pretend to be a High Elf on Alliance anyway.
That's an incorrect assumption. Most people who play blood elves, do so simply because they like elves. Just as many people who dislike elves, do not play one despite their racials -- which I will add are not as dramatically powerful as they are being played up to be.

Most people do not min-max based off of which race or class is best by a slim margin, they simply play what is fun to them. If that were not the case, we would have a lot more of the less popular races. If I recall, for instance, there was a time where pandaren had very powerful PvE racials but that did not help them become more playable.

Likewise, especially during vanilla, dwarves had an extremely powerful PvP racial -- ESPECIALLY as a rogue -- but none the less, they were one of the least played races in the game and remain as such. This becomes even more clear if you factor in dwarf priests with their fear ward racial -- which was actually was game breaking and required in many cases, and yet still were not the most popular priest class by any stretch of the imagination.
04/21/2018 10:39 AMPosted by Wiccan
Vanilla had faction imbalance.

They added a cool race to Horde.

If adding a cool race to the Alliance causes faction imbalance to the Horde, they can simply give another cool race to the Horde, like they did in BC.

*magic*


Which 'cool race' would that be? This is the kind of question you need to ask, because there really is not another 'cool race' you could give to the Horde that could compete with high elves, let alone make high elves want to switch directly to Horde -- as Blizzard did for night elves to blood elves.

Night elves were once the most popular race in the game by far, and they are now dramatically less popular... that isn't a coincidence.
i mained blood elf from wrath to the end of mop cuz i wanna be highelf (cuz i mained a dk, and technically they were killed before bloodelf became a thing). so i will be playing a high elf dk as soon as high helf becomes playable :)

never for a second thought the horde was cool

i only played blood elf and undead when i was horde :D
[quote="207605598305"]

[quote] It could have huge consequences and once this card is played, there is, again, virtually nothing Blizzard can do to reverse it. It is extremely risky, especially in the long term.


Small confession here. Actually if Blizzard added San'layn to Horde I think it WOULD counter the blood to high elf feared exodus. Personally undead have always been my favorite Horde race (I mained an undead priest from vanilla to cata actually and when I came back for Legion I only made this character my main because I hated what they'd done to the shadow spec :( Honestly given the choice between standard fantasy elf and an awesome undead elf (especially if the red eyes like Sylvanas was an option and they had a cool racial mount/heritage armor) I'd probably make the San'layn. Undead (potentially vampire) AND elf. Dream granted XD
04/21/2018 10:35 AMPosted by Lorina
The problem is that I don't know. And it's an irrelevant question because it does not cover a number of possibilities, including new players, and rerolls from races that are not blood elves, or even rerolls to the Alliance -- who might suddenly have a better and/or bigger faction because of faction imbalance -- that are not to high elves to begin with.


It's not an irrelevant question, at all. The fact that you refuse to answer it shows that you know that whatever answer you give will be totally absurd, because the idea that far more than 1-in-4 of all Blood Elf players are going to decide to give up their Horde friends, their Horde guilds, their faction loyalty, their Blood Elf racials, and pay $30 just so they can become Alliance, is totally ludicrous. Saying that more than 27% are going to faction change is a wholly indefensible argument, which is why you're not making it.

You can't make a strawman argument out of this and use it as a basepoint to stand by. There are simply too many variables. My post wasn't to say high elves are impossible or shouldn't be added, simply to say that adding them is risky, and it's being dramatically underplayed.


Nope, their addition is being dramatically overplayed, as you've demonstrated. I gave you the best numbers we've got access to, and demonstrated that it would take an absurdly high number of faction changes before it created a faction imbalance greater than what we have now. If you don't want to accept raw data, then that's up to you. But the data is there, and it shows that it'd require an absurdly high number of Blood Elves to faction change before we see a serious shift in the population balance.

Nevermind that, once again, Blizzard no longer considers population balance an issue due to CRZ. You're worried about something which has been a non-issue for years, now.

The risk needs to be recognized, acknowledged, and it needs to be considered.


It has been. Look at my post. It's been recognized, acknowledged, considered ...and dismissed, because the facts just aren't there to back up your worries.

Look for ways to manage it, and high elves will directly become more likely and viable. Ignore it, and your case does not become any stronger. High elves already are a perfectly viable playable race except for this blatant danger -- is that not clear by now?


Except there is no blatant danger, and you're ignoring direct evidence which contradicts your Chicken Little mentality. Sorry, but the sky won't fall with the introduction of High Elves.
notice she skipped responding to my post about statistics and realmpop.
04/21/2018 10:41 AMPosted by Lorina
Which 'cool race' would that be? This is the kind of question you need to ask, because there really is not another 'cool race' you could give to the Horde that could compete with high elves, let alone make high elves want to switch directly to Horde -- as Blizzard did for night elves to blood elves.

Night elves were once the most popular race in the game by far, and they are now dramatically less popular... that isn't a coincidence.


Defias Humans. Forsaken Humans (a.k.a. Nathanos). Forsaken High Elves. San'layn Elves (a.k.a. Vampires) - the Horde has a surprisingly huge list of possible "beautiful" Allied races, unlike the Alliance.
04/21/2018 10:42 AMPosted by Píñkÿ
notice she skipped responding to my post about statistics and realmpop.


Yep. Notice, too, how she skipped my comment about all the potential races that could be added to the Horde (And how the current batch of Allied Races are superior to the Alliance equivalents), while going back to claiming that there are no "cool" races that could be added to the Horde?

Hello. Nathanos Blightcaller would like a word with you.

https://d1u5p3l4wpay3k.cloudfront.net/wowpedia/thumb/7/7e/Nathanos_Blightcaller_in_Undercity.jpg/300px-Nathanos_Blightcaller_in_Undercity.jpg?version=d5eeeff3820edf3ced82b4ce3bf8be28

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