Affliction Warlock Feedback

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Just going to reiterate my thoughts on UA stacking because I want to hammer it home.

It works in PVE. UA stacking is a valid rotation. No one is disputing that. It may not be the most fun or engaging thing, but it works. But I don't really understand the burst argument and why UA is the only option for that. Haunt was a direct damage spender in MoP, and our DoTs also benefited from it. I... just don't see what was wrong with that. Did it really need to be changed? Or was it changed just 'cuz? Haunt was fine for burst and it gave us snap damage for low health mobs/quick fights.

In PVP, it doesn't feel good mechanically. Our pressure traditionally comes from being able to maintain uptime on DoTs on multiple targets and take advantage of spread pressure. Finding windows to cast multiple UAs isn't as fun as it sounds and in a lot of situations we are dead before the pressure even gets started, even if we try our hardest just to survive.

There are also no talents that improve the quality of life of UA. It's our spender!! Endless Affliction is still unchanged, which is a real puzzler... I'd be curious to see the statistics on how often that talent is actually used. Soul Conduit is completely dead - there's just no reason to take it, and we're even getting an Azerite trait that is a similar but better version of Soul Conduit. I suppose there is Rot and Decay but who has room for that nowadays with only 3 honor talent slots, 1 of which will be dedicated to Demon Armor coming up.

Personally I think Affliction could be built in a way that doesn't even need building and spending mechanics for damage (just to point out that Soul Shards used to be used for utility) but obviously those are here to stay. Pretty much every DPS spec has building and spending now.
Well put regarding UA. If they want to keep it, then I reiterate my previous comments regarding making it a shard dump, being a one button press similar to Hand of Guldan mixed with Agony stacking in a way (additional casts on the target extend duration and increase stack number). Such design would encourage multidotting and upkeep, where getting many high stacked UAs out on multiple targets and keeping them up would result in higher damage, while on a single target it would be less but strong. Duration would need to be baseline long enough to demand upkeep, but just short enough to be difficult to maintain on more than three targets. That would be for PvE, while in PvP it would provide on demand burst windows that can sync up without massive ramp time which casters simply do not get in PvP environments.

This is ultimately just a small mechanical change though, as the added globals worth of time do not drastically change the way we play the class. Damage tuning would need to be addressed given the change, but that really isn’t anything new. I would be fine being less incredible on single target if we were better balanced for many situations (AoE, multitarget, and priority add killing).
Give me mobile Shadow Bolt so I can have fun with Warlock like in MOP and raid mechanics don't tank my dps.
Naturally a number of things needs to happen with Affliction (PvP related). For example:
1. Fear durations needs to be increased to 8 seconds.
2. Portal needs to be baselined (replaced by Howl of Terror, 8 seconds as well).
3. UA shouldn't stack - Haunt should be the way an Affliction Lock bursts (also Aff Lock burst shouldn't be too big, they're not supposed to be a bursting spec).
4. Curse of Exhaustion & Curse of Weakness & Curse of Enfeeblement need to be baselined. (Remove new PvP talent curses)
5. Soul Link needs to be re-implemented.
6. Pet Summoning cast time needs to be increased dramatically.
7. Fel Flame needs to be re-implemented (baseline).
8. Shadowflame (glyphed version) needs to be re-implemented (baseline).
9. Unending Resolve needs to not grant immunity.
10. Nether Ward needs to be removed.
11. UA needs increased dispel protection (large damage increase on the dispel effect).
12. Soul Swap (MoP or Cata version) could be made into a PvP talent.

Basically - Warlocks need to function autonomously, without a healer, as well. Additionally CC needs to make a big comeback in this game. Facing an aff lock (team) who wins just by rotting you down with barely any CC is just boring and is fairly skill-less and almost impossible to counter (which makes balancing a nightmare because either they do enough damage to win at which point the opposition can't counter it or they don't - at which point aff lock comps are useless). However, if that aff lock team needs to utilize CC well in order to get good results then all of a sudden the game is fun because it makes things outplayable (for both parties). Furthermore, these changes would make Affliction Warlock fun to play for Affliction Warlocks - unlike what we have today.

Stop this "we want to work on classes strengths instead of their weaknesses" nonsense - classes need to be strong and have tools to deal with things instead of having a lingering feeling of "welp, I guess I just can't deal with this in any way possible".
The points regarding crowd control and self peel recently bring to light a very relevant issue in design actually. Almost all of the abilities in the game happen to be targeted, and this is a big problem for CC and mobility because when they are the power of them is incredibly high. They are strong effects that when are very reliable create situations in which one player never feels like they have a chance to respond to a series of events. A few other games learned this and started making CC and mobility very telegraphed.

Telegraphing abilities means more flight times, wind up animations, and indicators that allow players to see an effect coming and prepare for it. Slows become stronger because they increase the chance to line up such skills, and all the good stuff we see in competitive PvP games begin to become attainable. The groundwork for telegraphed abilities has already been laid with all the work done with vehicle abilities in Legion.

The tech is already here, the classes already plenty barren enough, just start switching over the targeted CC and instant mobility to have very telegraphed effects and subtle delays. Some abilities can stay instant, like flavorful ones like Charge/Intercept, Fel Rush, and disengage effects. If the rest were all like Warlock mobility though, then the game would be much more interesting.

In years long since gone this stuff was not implemented because internet connections were slow and data transfer rates too sluggish to get these very reactive styles of gameplay to happen quickly enough, but now we have very fast internet. There is simply no better time to do this kind of thing. So many castbars could be removed by doing this. Really strong abilities can have a nice decent wind up animation that can be seen by other players and responded to. In fact, it opens the door to player interactions in PvE against enemy targets as well (oh we can see the Warlock is winding up a Shadowfury, and the tank starts a quick reposition or enemies into the radius, boom stunned for 5 seconds and lined up for the next set of CC great timing of abilities and movement!!). Just saying, this kind of stuff has potential, game is already in a bad place according to many, gotta try new stuff anyhow, what better time than now?
Heads up, tomorrow they are doing a forum migration. So this thread and others might be read-only and not moved over to the new forums.

It says two-week or less-old threads will be moved but I hope they consider active class feedback threads important enough to move as well.

If not, we can definitely continue the discussion once the new forum is up. Though I will say that until we see Affliction updates the discussion will be an echo chamber because the necessary points have been brought up and debated to death.
yeah this thread doesnt look to meat the criteria for being brought over -
SO we can only hope that it will be manually migrated since it has blue posts attached to it. if not we will have to make a new thread and echo our responses as this one will finally die.
Save the thread just in case so we can keep it
11/12/2018 01:56 PMPosted by Yatogami
Save the thread just in case so we can keep it

I will probably make a new thread tomorrow evening or whenever the forums come back up with a link to the archive of this one and updated commentary on the talents (since the original was from the end of Alpha) and a recap of my feelings about the state of Aff.

Honestly I’m hoping they make an exception for this forum and migrate older posts but I doubt they will.
@xoja - you really have the patience of something other then a warlock - cause I don't really know how you keep going. Ive become so salty and jaded due to AFF warlock PVP -

I just want to be able to live in PVP

The 8.1 Changes to ID are really big - like bigger then I thought.
The reduction to stack amount from 100 to 50 (Reads Nice plays near the same)
procing on agony - feels the same as corruption (really a Mythic plus nerf)
and then the damage change: Tested on my copied Toon on live vs ptr

Triple ID @ 370 with all 4 rings unlocked on my gear.
Live it hits for extra 27650 damage at 100 max stacks
8.1 it hits for extra 16650 damage at 50 max stacks

I was seeing at max ID stacks - normal 13k hits and 27k crits on the target dummy.
This is a huge nerf and without a change to the rest of our damage or dispel protection.
I'm not seeing how AFF will have the same kill setup with this ID at all.
i am just acepting the fact that feedback is pointless, blizzard ignore everything we said so i dont expect any change soon, just waiting my sub to end in a few months.
11/12/2018 02:35 PMPosted by Sefirosuwar
@xoja - you really have the patience of something other then a warlock - cause I don't really know how you keep going. Ive become so salty and jaded due to AFF warlock PVP -

I'll be honest. And I'm not saying this to upset anyone (it's just honesty - I hate leaving negative feedback, but it's honest), but the whole reason I made this post to begin with is because I got in BfA Alpha and I simply couldn't believe how terrible Affliction felt to play. I was certain that UA stacking wouldn't make it past Legion, but it did. I knew from the moment I logged on, looking at the talent tree and the spellbook that Affliction was going to be terrible in PVP. Normally playing WoW I take what I'm given and I work with it. I knew that this time around I had to at least try to give feedback.

The shallowness of the spec (and class design in general) shocked me. I thought they were done with pruning and simplification... nope. They took it magnitudes further with BfA.

As for what keeps me going, I don't know. I think it's a combination of expecting more out of the dev team of a game that has proven to be wonderful for years to me and also wanting to help get the spec in a place that feels good for all types of players rather than just raiders and M+. UA stacking just doesn't do it and I want to see it gone.
did the new forums not go active or is that today.?
no idea
Looks like it didn't happen today. They took down the article in the link

And they updated the maintenance schedule.

Guess that 1.5 hours that I spent writing a new thread last night was all for naught ;) at least for now.
Might as well link that thread here if you posted it so we can migrate and let this one finally die.
Nahh it will still happen save it for sure.
Ive been thinking about how we should be pushing for people to leave feedback on how to better the existing UA and damage systems.
These posts have a tendency to spiral into negative feedback so hopefully we can keep the new thread good like this one has been overall.

Cause its clear that we are not getting rid of UA stacking - .
Just look at all the already done changes for other classes they just double downed on existing systems. (SPVoidform/Ele/Enchance/DK/MM) traits were all just #% tuning and small adjustments)
No real replacement or class reworks occurring for them so it would be off to assume that we would be the only spec getting that treatment.
Yeah I'm saving it for when we really need it. There's no reason to migrate to a new thread here, it will just be a continuation of this one when this one was already extended. But I haven't given up on leaving feedback here for now either.

11/13/2018 10:28 AMPosted by Sefirosuwar
Ive been thinking about how we should be pushing for people to leave feedback on how to better the existing UA and damage systems.

This is actually something I touched on a bit in what I wrote last night.

Most of the issue with UA stacking is PVP-related. Mechanically it is just not good gameplay design for PVP. In the past, UA has been our most important damaging ability in PVP because of its nature: heavy DoT damage and dispel protection.

Suddenly we have to cast multiple UAs to get more out of it. 5 UAs is better than 1 UA was before the change, but 1 UA now is worse than 1 UA pre-change.

Working harder isn't really the problem though. I think most diehard Affliction Warlocks love the idea of keeping track of DoTs, being productive with globals and being a management class in general. The problem is that we crumble under pressure and there is no fight or flight option, only flight.

The bottom line is that we don't accomplish the goal of Affliction in PVP: to apply spread pressure. There just is no pressure... the moment we step into an Arena we're the ones under pressure from the get-go. Maybe they think these survival band-aids will fix everything but I think we need more.

Endless Affliction

Please change this honor talent. Not only does it nerf our UA damage, it also nerfs Deathbolt. It's embarrassing that this talent still exists in the same form it did for most of Legion, where nobody wanted it either.
another ptr with no update or changes to anything... looking like another raid with the exact same talents with no changes to anything.

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