BFA Frost DK feedback

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The most recent patch has not brought any changes for frost. Is frost still in the lineup for additional changes or is the spec going to continue as is into BFA?
Surely the problem with Winter is Coming being broken by Remorsless Winter (the very ability that triggers it, and which is an uncontrollable 8 sec AOE) is a bug? Not only that, but for a spec that is build around incidental AOE, the root should honestly remain for the full duration and not be breakable on damage.

I mean there are a lot of issues with this spec that deserve attention, but Blizzard can't ignore something this blatantly broken.....
06/01/2018 07:54 AMPosted by Leliel
The most recent patch has not brought any changes for frost. Is frost still in the lineup for additional changes or is the spec going to continue as is into BFA?


My assumption right now is that they might let it enter live as is and number tweak where necessary.
06/01/2018 08:20 AMPosted by Kratheros
06/01/2018 07:54 AMPosted by Leliel
The most recent patch has not brought any changes for frost. Is frost still in the lineup for additional changes or is the spec going to continue as is into BFA?


My assumption right now is that they might let it enter live as is and number tweak where necessary.

Ah, the Legion aura buff way. What a good way to repeat history. Just think that people want players to provide good feedback, and there's years of it for Frost, when Blizzard can make the exact same mistake twice in a row.

Frost has needed a rework for a while now, but it was expected after the bastardization of the 7.3.2 Talent Tree reshuffle and a 23%(lol) aura buff.
Yeah, which would mean the standard 30-50% OB/FS/HB baseline damage buffs every new raid tier to keep the spec from doing less damage than the tanks.
I sincerely hope we don't have the aura buffs again for BFA. I was under the impression at the time that when are talent tree was changed to make Breath of Sindragosa no longer the best, that we would get significant changes to the spec and talents in the next expansion.

To be clear, I enjoyed both the Breath of Sindragosa builds and the 7.3 Shattering Strikes build, but neither of these will be possible in BFA as it currently stands since keeping Breath of Sindragosa up for a long period of time isn't possible and the Shattering Strikes build we currently have only works due to the set bonus we have on T21.

I have not played much of the beta currently, but from the little I have had time to play, the spec currently feels slow and isn't fun. Azerite gear I expect will add flavor the the basic style of Frost, but it should be fun to play without having a specific piece of gear as well. This is why I am hoping that there are still changes on the way for Frost.
Post 1/2
I am extremely concerned over the deafening silence regarding Frost Death Knight, I might be reposting/rewording this feedback in the combined FDK thread as well as its own thread.

I’m on the verge of panic, this was posted 37 days ago now:
04/24/2018 05:09 PMPosted by Kaivax
We’ve still got a few changes coming soon in the Beta to Unholy Death Knights, Frost Death Knights, and Protection Warriors.


Since then Affliction, Balance, Fury, Marksmanship, all have gotten something towards their BFA design.

Frost is still the same talent tree from Live Legion WoW. There is so much that needs addressing with the class and I am afraid nothing will change.

It's a class that can have upto 3 offensive cooldowns on the Global Cooldown, which are terrible to chain on Beta.

It only one talented rotational button that is worth using: Frostscythe, and is full of passive talents that don't change gameplay.

Here's all the Frost specific abilities I have issue with:

Pillar of Frost
This has been a great short duration cooldown since it was remade from Unbreakable Armour in cataclysm. But now its on the GCD it suffers from the lack of instantly doing anything, much like Fury warrior cooldowns which have active effects now.
This is also available to use much more often than any cooldown in the game, due to Icecap and previous set bonus' which eats into GCDs used for damage abilities even more.
This cooldown needs a look taken at it.

Empower Rune Weapon
This was great as a reset everything cooldown for every spec before it was made Frost only. But now in this world of GCDs on everything, you instantly waste 1.5s of Rune regeneration, and you waste Pillar of Frost uptime when you run dry mid Pillar.
Like Hungering Rune Weapon, it’s just a overkill button filling resources too harshly to be played with appropriately.

Runic Attenuation
Boring passive Runic Power generation that is barely noticeable taking almost 30 seconds of auto attacking just to add up to 25 Runic Power for just one Frost Strike.

Icy Talons
This is a fair amount of micromanagement to make sure the stacks don't fall off, and it only boosts auto attack damage, a very minor part of the damage pie.
I feel this is a talent purely designed to enforce the Dual Wield fast auto attacks ideal of Frost Death Knights that has become a thing since Cataclysm. Apart from this and Frozen Pulse there isn't really any mechanical reason why Frost shouldn't be able to use both kinds of weapons. But that's a whole nother topic.... and giant can of worms.

Shattering Strikes
Two out of three Frost Strikes are stronger, while reducing passive Frost damage from Remorseless Winter, Frost Fever and whatever other sources of Frost damage we might get over the expansion.
Does this change how the spec is played? Not really because you are still locked into the resource rotation, Runic Power has to be spent with Frost Strikes to give more Runes and not be wasted.

Freezing Fog
Boring just passively boosts the dot and Howling Blast from Rime procs. Is there anything to play around here? Does this encourage more Howling Blasts? No because they are locked behind Rime procs.
At least Murderous Efficiency and Horn of Winter have instant resource repercussions, even if they don't alter rotation that much.

Icecap
This almost feels like a detriment now, reducing the cooldown on a very short 1 Min Pillar of Frost, just adds more GCDs to the rotation are that wasted on Cooldowns that don't do anything for their GCD.

Avalanche
Just passively more damage while your cooldown is active, boring and just here looking pretty.

Glacial Advance
This ability was heralded as the big new Frost button in the Legion class preview blogs, but it has lacked for the whole expansion.
Firstly it is bugged so if you cast it near a wall it doesn't travel and just spawns and stays slightly behind your right foot.
Secondly it doesn't interact with any of the rest of the class' toolkit. It doesn't proc Rime or benefit from Killing Machine, it doesn't add Razorice stacks. It doesn't have any effect on Obliteration.
It is out shined mechanically and damage wise by Frostscythe in every situation.
This talent is really a waste of a talent slot, and needs replacing.

Frozen Pulse
Again another source of passive extra auto attack damage, if you're low on resources and gear, which gets harder to accomplish the more haste is gained across the expansion.
The damage is absolutely pitiful considering it has to compete with Gathering Storm as a great sustained aoe talent, and Frostscythe as a great bursty aoe talent.
Post 2/2

Finally the 100 row, which is a full row of talented cooldowns, which really should have some variety, not sure long cooldown spec defining cooldowns.

Hungering Rune Weapon
I understand the need to decouple this and Breath of Sindragosa in 7.3, but what we're left with is a terrible button that just fills resources miles faster than we are able to spend.
Hungering was great as a smoother Empower Rune Weapon that gave more runes over time. But add 20% haste on top of that and it becomes unusable just flooding Runes and Runic far beyond what is spendable, which doesn't feel good as a damage increasing button at all.

Obliteration
Another offensive cooldown on the Global Cooldown. Now that 1.5s of either the duration of Pillar of Frost or Obliteration will be wasted overlapping the cooldowns, and its clearly a mess that needs fixing.
Also the whole ability is based on the cost reduction of Obliterate, but the main damage source is from the 100% Killing Machine procs, it just feels like you need to excessively weave the abilities to get value out of the button. Also with its interaction with Murderous Efficiency this becomes a much more stable resource gaining Cooldown than both Empower and Hungering Rune Weapons.

Breath of Sindragosa
The max i've managed to keep this up for on Beta is 20 seconds, with 1.5 seconds wasted to Empower Rune Weapon in the middle.
I love this talent when its working properly in a middle ground between Warlords levels of burst with it, and the bad insanity that was Breath in Nighthold. I absolutely don't want this talent to go away but with GCDs being lost in the middle of it to Empower Rune Weapon and Pillar of Frost, it needs some serious attention.

Considering the rumours I’ve heard today that class devs are already past a deadline to stop making ability changes makes the lack of Frost changes even more concerning. This spec will be 100% dead on arrival if its mechanics do not change before launch.
It really needs the same talent tree revamp that Fury just got!
06/01/2018 08:26 AMPosted by Hôth
Yeah, which would mean the standard 30-50% OB/FS/HB baseline damage buffs every new raid tier to keep the spec from doing less damage than the tanks.


But look at all that utility Frost brings to a group!

Seriously, can we at least get that addressed? DK's bring two things: Grip and a brez. That's it. We don't have an AoE stun, but we get the distinct honor of being able to spec into an AoE snare. We don't bring an attack power boost, even though Horn of Winter is looking them RIGHT IN THE FACE. We don't bring a magic damage taken debuff even though that used to be part of the kit (Unholy with Ebon Plaguebringer.)

We're losing our ability to bombard an area with Sindragosa which was always nice for dealing really heavy damage to priority targets. (Especially in AoE situations) Nothing (to my knowledge) has been baked in and so far.

Also let me also toss out this reminder: Blizzard has gone on the record of saying that they don't want AoE abilities to be target of ST rotation. This is why they did all that tweaking to Rain of Fire forever ago.

And while I'm in mid-rant, let me add that people coming to the defense of Blizz saying that "you need to address your issues with a spec, provide constructive criticism and you'll get a response" is ridiculous. There's a wealth of constructive criticism and proper feedback that doesn't just amount to, "HEY BLIZZ WHEN U GONNA BUFF DK"
In my opinion, frost needs the following changes:

* Better Defensives - Frost is slow and must be in melee range to do its damage. Range and speed are a defense against many mechanics. Not getting hit is the best defense. A high amount of mobility or being ranged allows you more time to react to incoming mechanics and avoid them.

Frost does not have the luxury of range nor does it have speed, and it does not have particularly strong defensives compared to other classes. This results in a fairly miserable experience in a lot of content (high end M+ for example). With BfA, even frost's currently inadequate defensives are getting massively nerfed. I believe frost needs a defensive ability revamp that accounts for our class fantasy of slow juggernaut rather than slow paper towel as it currently stands.

* Some ability to continue dps at range - Even with strong defensives, some mechanics are going to be too much to handle and you will have to move out of them. Adding in a mechanic to maintain some dps at range, similar to say cold heart, would work without going back to howling blast spam.

* CC - The new winter is coming is largely worthless. A root which will be unreliable at best and instantly break on remorseless winter damage at worst is not anything anyone has ever asked for. With the loss of AOE stun, it's probably time to bring back Asphyxiate to the frost toolkit.

* Utility - Why would I want a frost DK in my group? Many specs have brez, and I believe the druid brez will be much more desirable than the DK brez. The charge system devalues this piece of utility as well. A single grip on a fairly long CD is nice, but not really worth mentioning against many of the class buffs. Some kind of additional group utility would go a long way to making frost desirable vs. some of the other options available.

I don't necessarily think we need all this, but some of it would certainly help. I can't see playing frost in BfA at all, especially given that it uses separate weapons vs. the interchangeable Unholy/Blood weapon.
I must say that it feels terrible to hit PoF, ERW, Oblit with them being on the gcd. It just feels like I'm wasting time on the duration of them as well as lowering my dps, especially when PoF and Oblit should most likely be used together for higher damage. It just seems that instead of them being %dmg increases they are %dmg drops for about 3-4 seconds then I get a small dps boost (mainly PoF because of Oblit's duration being eaten by a gcd). In comparison to other melee's our cd's feel lackluster in performance as well as usage. I would love to see more "active" effects added to those abilities so that feel more "impactful" and visually more appealing.
Post 1/2
Runic Attenuation
Boring passive Runic Power generation that is barely noticeable taking almost 30 seconds of auto attacking just to add up to 25 Runic Power for just one Frost Strike.

Icy Talons
This is a fair amount of micromanagement to make sure the stacks don't fall off, and it only boosts auto attack damage, a very minor part of the damage pie.
I feel this is a talent purely designed to enforce the Dual Wield fast auto attacks ideal of Frost Death Knights that has become a thing since Cataclysm. Apart from this and Frozen Pulse there isn't really any mechanical reason why Frost shouldn't be able to use both kinds of weapons. But that's a whole nother topic.... and giant can of worms.

Shattering Strikes
Two out of three Frost Strikes are stronger, while reducing passive Frost damage from Remorseless Winter, Frost Fever and whatever other sources of Frost damage we might get over the expansion.
Does this change how the spec is played? Not really because you are still locked into the resource rotation, Runic Power has to be spent with Frost Strikes to give more Runes and not be wasted.

Freezing Fog
Boring just passively boosts the dot and Howling Blast from Rime procs. Is there anything to play around here? Does this encourage more Howling Blasts? No because they are locked behind Rime procs.
At least Murderous Efficiency and Horn of Winter have instant resource repercussions, even if they don't alter rotation that much.

Icecap
This almost feels like a detriment now, reducing the cooldown on a very short 1 Min Pillar of Frost, just adds more GCDs to the rotation are that wasted on Cooldowns that don't do anything for their GCD.

Avalanche
Just passively more damage while your cooldown is active, boring and just here looking pretty.

Glacial Advance
This ability was heralded as the big new Frost button in the Legion class preview blogs, but it has lacked for the whole expansion.
Firstly it is bugged so if you cast it near a wall it doesn't travel and just spawns and stays slightly behind your right foot.
Secondly it doesn't interact with any of the rest of the class' toolkit. It doesn't proc Rime or benefit from Killing Machine, it doesn't add Razorice stacks. It doesn't have any effect on Obliteration.
It is out shined mechanically and damage wise by Frostscythe in every situation.
This talent is really a waste of a talent slot, and needs replacing.

Frozen Pulse
Again another source of passive extra auto attack damage, if you're low on resources and gear, which gets harder to accomplish the more haste is gained across the expansion.
The damage is absolutely pitiful considering it has to compete with Gathering Storm as a great sustained aoe talent, and Frostscythe as a great bursty aoe talent.


Just because something is passive/boring doesn't mean it is bad. It needs to be there as an option against the other two talents that require more thought that also increase the dps when used properly. Someone might just not like to play with that extra thought or extra button and there needs to be that option there for them. If that's not to your liking, the other two talents should take care of that issue.
06/01/2018 10:27 PMPosted by Mizudaisho
Post 1/2
Runic Attenuation
Boring passive Runic Power generation that is barely noticeable taking almost 30 seconds of auto attacking just to add up to 25 Runic Power for just one Frost Strike.

Icy Talons
This is a fair amount of micromanagement to make sure the stacks don't fall off, and it only boosts auto attack damage, a very minor part of the damage pie.
I feel this is a talent purely designed to enforce the Dual Wield fast auto attacks ideal of Frost Death Knights that has become a thing since Cataclysm. Apart from this and Frozen Pulse there isn't really any mechanical reason why Frost shouldn't be able to use both kinds of weapons. But that's a whole nother topic.... and giant can of worms.

Shattering Strikes
Two out of three Frost Strikes are stronger, while reducing passive Frost damage from Remorseless Winter, Frost Fever and whatever other sources of Frost damage we might get over the expansion.
Does this change how the spec is played? Not really because you are still locked into the resource rotation, Runic Power has to be spent with Frost Strikes to give more Runes and not be wasted.

Freezing Fog
Boring just passively boosts the dot and Howling Blast from Rime procs. Is there anything to play around here? Does this encourage more Howling Blasts? No because they are locked behind Rime procs.
At least Murderous Efficiency and Horn of Winter have instant resource repercussions, even if they don't alter rotation that much.

Icecap
This almost feels like a detriment now, reducing the cooldown on a very short 1 Min Pillar of Frost, just adds more GCDs to the rotation are that wasted on Cooldowns that don't do anything for their GCD.

Avalanche
Just passively more damage while your cooldown is active, boring and just here looking pretty.

Glacial Advance
This ability was heralded as the big new Frost button in the Legion class preview blogs, but it has lacked for the whole expansion.
Firstly it is bugged so if you cast it near a wall it doesn't travel and just spawns and stays slightly behind your right foot.
Secondly it doesn't interact with any of the rest of the class' toolkit. It doesn't proc Rime or benefit from Killing Machine, it doesn't add Razorice stacks. It doesn't have any effect on Obliteration.
It is out shined mechanically and damage wise by Frostscythe in every situation.
This talent is really a waste of a talent slot, and needs replacing.

Frozen Pulse
Again another source of passive extra auto attack damage, if you're low on resources and gear, which gets harder to accomplish the more haste is gained across the expansion.
The damage is absolutely pitiful considering it has to compete with Gathering Storm as a great sustained aoe talent, and Frostscythe as a great bursty aoe talent.


Just because something is passive/boring doesn't mean it is bad. It needs to be there as an option against the other two talents that require more thought that also increase the dps when used properly. Someone might just not like to play with that extra thought or extra button and there needs to be that option there for them. If that's not to your liking, the other two talents should take care of that issue.


This would be acceptable if Frost had active talents which were actually on par or even somewhat under par to their passive counterparts.

As it stands, frost lacks the active counterpart for their talents and thus is forced into a mostly passive talent selection which feels very non engaging as a player.

I feel like I speak for a good portion of people here when I say that I feel frost needs to have competitive active talent choices to spice up the very straight forward base rotation.
06/01/2018 10:27 PMPosted by Mizudaisho
...

Just because something is passive/boring doesn't mean it is bad. It needs to be there as an option against the other two talents that require more thought that also increase the dps when used properly. Someone might just not like to play with that extra thought or extra button and there needs to be that option there for them. If that's not to your liking, the other two talents should take care of that issue.


This would be acceptable if Frost had active talents which were actually on par or even somewhat under par to their passive counterparts.

As it stands, frost lacks the active counterpart for their talents and thus is forced into a mostly passive talent selection which feels very non engaging as a player.

I feel like I speak for a good portion of people here when I say that I feel frost needs to have competitive active talent choices to spice up the very straight forward base rotation.
110% agree. We have have the second most passives in a talent tree out of all specs (only due to the 3 actives in the final row) and all of them overshadow their active counterparts for the most part. I mean what actives currently in our talent tree would you take over passives, Frostscythe is probably the only one anyone would take over the passives available and that's the core issue right there. Active talents are supposed to take more thought to use and thus have higher dps output when used right, currently they don't and they flounder against the passives they are competing with.
They should make Sindragosas Fury a baseline spell, it would be Frosts Army of the Dead CD.

Then they could work in Consorts Cold Core as a talent that would be great for Mythic+ and strong AoE burst damage. That talent then could possibly compete with Frostscythe and Gathering Storm

I think making a talent like our current legendary of Seal of Necrofantasia would be really cool and have that talent compete with Hungering Rune Weapon and Obliteration
Good suggestions again and no response? MILD SHOCK
06/02/2018 02:26 PMPosted by Moonblight
Good suggestions again and no response? MILD SHOCK


Clearly our suggestions and feedback isn't good enough. Let me try.

BUFF FORST PLZ WE HAS MANY GCD 4 USE WEHN WE TRY 2 BURST HALP AS SOON AS U CAN WE LIEK FURY EXCPT WE ONLY US 1HERS LOL
- Obliteration and HRW being on the GCD isn't acceptable considering their short duration. The GCD accounts for ~13% of their uptime. Blizzard fixed these issues with fury and frost deserves the same treatment

- Winter is Coming is STILL BROKEN. It is both triggered AND broken by Remorseless Winter. This is so clearly a bug or oversight and Blizzard is usually very quick to fix bugs. Why is Blizzard ignoring this bug?

- Raise Ally still requires RP. Why was this change necessary? None of the other battle rezzes have an impactful resource cost, yet I KNOW there is going to come a situation where a brez needs to go out ASAP and my group wipes on a high M+ key because I didn't have enough RP to brez the tank/healer. This situation is even more likely to happen early in the expansion with DK's resource generation a fraction of what it is in Legion, but it will not happen with druids or warlocks.
06/02/2018 08:24 AMPosted by Cowlin
They should make Sindragosas Fury a baseline spell, it would be Frosts Army of the Dead CD.

Then they could work in Consorts Cold Core as a talent that would be great for Mythic+ and strong AoE burst damage. That talent then could possibly compete with Frostscythe and Gathering Storm

I think making a talent like our current legendary of Seal of Necrofantasia would be really cool and have that talent compete with Hungering Rune Weapon and Obliteration


I like these.

Perhaps replace Glacial Advance (which is a really awful talent, both undertuned, mechanically broken, i.e. stops if it hits an object, AND doesn't interact core mechanics like OB/FS/FSc) with something that imparts the legendary leg effects?

Similar situation with ERW. The baseline ability is a very, very weak damage cooldown considering its 3min CD. Perhaps make HRW the baseline ability, and then replace the HRW talent with the effects of Seal of Necrofantasia?

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