[PvE] BfA Discipline Priest Feedback

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05/23/2018 07:20 AMPosted by Calile
They could also just give us Shadow Covenant back--we do need a way to heal out of combat, but that should be niche, not override the whole playstyle during combat because the healing is so much better.


I think that's a good summation of what feels weird about it: a talent that appeared to be for just certain situations (niche) but instead can actively undermine the main theme(s) and feel of the spec (competing with offensive Atonement).
05/23/2018 08:44 AMPosted by Quietguy
I almost feel like we can get away with Orison with Grace over Contrition. But that pushes us even more into the shield spam play style. I know Contrition pulls ahead after so many atonements but if were tank healing, which more than likely we wont but more likely than legion, Orison is better ST heals and if the encounter has few raid burst windows then Contrition isn't optimized but because of tanks ST healing is always needed.

An extreme, not optimal, example would be 4 disc priests in a 20 man taking Orison and Grace and each maintaining atonements/shields on their party.


For 5-mans I don't mind a ToF + Orison + Grace build even if it's a bit shield-spam style, both that and Castigation + Orison + Grace should be competitive options I believe.. But for raids it's a whole other thing and I would hate if going with Orison and Grace is the most effective style as that would mean we are using pw:shield for the absorb/heal itself and not for atonement, much rather have the Legion atonement healing style in raids.
05/22/2018 04:49 PMPosted by Felizi995D21
Blizzard is making BfA disc easier to play to attract a broader audience. This is comprehensible since playing disc well is difficult but trying to make it easier may end up making it boring. I see no problem in keeping disc a hard spec to play. Priests can always play holy. Subtlety rogues have been always a difficult spec to master, for instance.


I agree with you on this one, I kind of like Disc being a "difficult" spec to play.. however I don't mind making it a bit friendlier for less experienced players as long as there's enough depth for more experienced / better players to shine.. As I see it we can split the 'skill' needed to play a spec into two categories:

Skill-floor: Which dictates how much skill or practice is needed to play a spec at an acceptable level and see some decent numbers.

Skill-sealing: Which dictates how far can you keep pushing yourself with the spec and optimizing stuff/timers, using your whole kit (even utility wise) etc to make the most out of it.

I think Legion version of Disc was notoriously high on both categories and I don't mind if they lower the skill-floor needed to play the spec as long as the skill-sealing remains high as it is..

In other words, in Legion a newish or "weak" Disc priest would be pretty much useless and do very little healing, much less than a "weak" healer of any other spec, I don't mind that being changed so the "weak" Disc priest has ways to not look as bad as long as the Great Disc priest can still stand out over the Good and the Good over the Average and so on. If Blizzard is able to achieve that I'm all for it..
05/23/2018 02:42 PMPosted by Holymonky
05/22/2018 04:49 PMPosted by Felizi995D21
Blizzard is making BfA disc easier to play to attract a broader audience. This is comprehensible since playing disc well is difficult but trying to make it easier may end up making it boring. I see no problem in keeping disc a hard spec to play. Priests can always play holy. Subtlety rogues have been always a difficult spec to master, for instance.


I agree with you on this one, I kind of like Disc being a "difficult" spec to play.. however I don't mind making it a bit friendlier for less experienced players as long as there's enough depth for more experienced / better players to shine.. As I see it we can split the 'skill' needed to play a spec into two categories:

Skill-floor: Which dictates how much skill or practice is needed to play a spec at an acceptable level and see some decent numbers.

Skill-sealing: Which dictates how far can you keep pushing yourself with the spec and optimizing stuff/timers, using your whole kit (even utility wise) etc to make the most out of it.

I think Legion version of Disc was notoriously high on both categories and I don't mind if they lower the skill-floor needed to play the spec as long as the skill-sealing remains high as it is..

In other words, in Legion a newish or "weak" Disc priest would be pretty much useless and do very little healing, much less than a "weak" healer of any other spec, I don't mind that being changed so the "weak" Disc priest has ways to not look as bad as long as the Great Disc priest can still stand out over the Good and the Good over the Average and so on. If Blizzard is able to achieve that I'm all for it..


I don't know that Disc is going to be more accessible just because of shields. PWS replaces plea, and the mana cost of PWS is more than plea on live. Once you popped your Radiance 2x, you have to drop 10 shields. That ramp up better be properly timed, because that's going to be a LOT more mana, even with SD, than it currently is on live. We can talk tuning, etc., but I don't believe such a small thing is in the cards for BFA launch when other specs are still missing talents. I'm reminded of the start of Legion, where your mana bar supported three full ramp ups and not a single cast more.
05/23/2018 02:46 PMPosted by Aforethought
I don't know that Disc is going to be more accessible just because of shields. PWS replaces plea, and the mana cost of PWS is more than plea on live. Once you popped your Radiance 2x, you have to drop 10 shields. That ramp up better be properly timed, because that's going to be a LOT more mana, even with SD, than it currently is on live. We can talk tuning, etc., but I don't believe such a small thing is in the cards for BFA launch when other specs are still missing talents. I'm reminded of the start of Legion, where your mana bar supported three full ramp ups and not a single cast more.

Yeah it may end-up not being more approachable, that was just a thought..

About the mana costs, actually if you have shield discipline pw:shield is cheaper than plea in live: pw:shield(2.3%) - shieldDiscipline(1%) = 1.3% which is less than 1.8% of plea...

Now, for BFA and with the nerf of SD and the little increase in mana cost of pw:shield it is now 2.5% - 0.5% = 2% so slightly higher than what plea was.
05/23/2018 02:42 PMPosted by Holymonky
I agree with you on this one, I kind of like Disc being a "difficult" spec to play.. however I don't mind making it a bit friendlier for less experienced players as long as there's enough depth for more experienced / better players to shine


You are right! Lowering skill-floor is not a problem but welcome. My main and preliminary concerns have more to do with the skill-ceiling. Of course, there is still lot of room for improvements in beta, but they are not clear for me so far.
- The "return" of Power of the Dark Side and the "new" Mastery go in the right direction (pushing skill-ceiling)
- Offensive vs. defensive penance could be an interesting dilemma if adequately balanced, but it still too early to say
- the inclusion of Schism in the cycle could be another path to push the skill-ceiling, but it is not the case so far.
- mana management is also an interesting issue for pushing the skill-ceiling, but if disc is the only spec to have this problem, it is rather frustrating
05/23/2018 08:44 PMPosted by Felizi995D21
05/23/2018 02:42 PMPosted by Holymonky
I agree with you on this one, I kind of like Disc being a "difficult" spec to play.. however I don't mind making it a bit friendlier for less experienced players as long as there's enough depth for more experienced / better players to shine


You are right! Lowering skill-floor is not a problem but welcome. My main and preliminary concerns have more to do with the skill-ceiling. Of course, there is still lot of room for improvements in beta, but they are not clear for me so far.
- The "return" of Power of the Dark Side and the "new" Mastery go in the right direction (pushing skill-ceiling)
- Offensive vs. defensive penance could be an interesting dilemma if adequately balanced, but it still too early to say
- the inclusion of Schism in the cycle could be another path to push the skill-ceiling, but it is not the case so far.
- mana management is also an interesting issue for pushing the skill-ceiling, but if disc is the only spec to have this problem, it is rather frustrating


I anticipate getting squeezed into a tight burst window once again, with no room for miscellaneous casts. I don't think we'll have the mana for interesting things like Schism. I think it'll be PRW 2x, PWS 10x, evang, castcastcastcastcast, let some globals pass by. But I haven't raid tested in beta yet and thus defer to anyone who has, I'm just going on mana seeming very tight and when mana is tight for us we must delete anything outside of the basic ramp/burst.
A few changes for an upcoming beta build.

  • New talent: Sins of the Many. Your damage is increased by up to X%, diminishing for each ally with Atonement.
  • Likely location is L75, pushing Lenience to L100, and removing Grace.

We agree with trying to find a talent that calls to having a smaller number of Atonements out, but are trying a version that still provides some benefit in all situations.

Grace's concept was generally subsumed by the new mastery (which is seeming successful so far), and stacking Grace on top of mastery led to huge variance in the strength of Shadow Mend and Power Word: Shield casts. Making that choice with mastery is a better place than making it with a talent that was essentially required in some types of content.

The talent rearrangement should leave L100 as a row of talents that most show their strength when effectively healing a large number of targets, and L75 as a row of talents less focused on that situation.

  • Contrition's healing is increased by Power of the Dark Side

So that Power of the Dark Side remains neutral as to your choice of which mode of Penance to use.

  • Mindbender's damage reduced 24%

It has been unintentionally strong ever since the squish, as many people have observed.
05/23/2018 09:30 PMPosted by Sigma
A few changes for an upcoming beta build.

  • New talent: Sins of the Many. Your damage is increased by up to X%, diminishing for each ally with Atonement.
  • Likely location is L75, pushing Lenience to L100, and removing Grace.

We agree with trying to find a talent that calls to having a smaller number of Atonements out, but are trying a version that still provides some benefit in all situations.

Grace's concept was generally subsumed by the new mastery (which is seeming successful so far), and stacking Grace on top of mastery led to huge variance in the strength of Shadow Mend and Power Word: Shield casts. Making that choice with mastery is a better place than making it with a talent that was essentially required in some types of content.

The talent rearrangement should leave L100 as a row of talents that most show their strength when effectively healing a large number of targets, and L75 as a row of talents less focused on that situation.

  • Contrition's healing is increased by Power of the Dark Side

So that Power of the Dark Side remains neutral as to your choice of which mode of Penance to use.

  • Mindbender's damage reduced 24%

It has been unintentionally strong ever since the squish, as many people have observed.


Thanks for the heads up. Does the removal of grace reduce Disc’s ability in M+, though? The removal makes sense logically, but in those higher keys every little bit helps with keeping the tank afloat.
Doesn't this leave t100 in a terrible state for m+? all 3 of the talents are tuned around having more than 5 people, and with the deletion of grace and nerf to mindbender i'm not so sure how disc will hold up in M+ after these changes.
At the moment, there's some baseline compensation on Shadow Mend and Power Word: Shield, which were so often buffed by Grace in the situations where they were most important. The final amount that will be appropriate is still somewhat up in the air after all the changes (including having mastery affecting them). In any case, the main goal is that the ability to focus healing on one target shouldn't be so dependent on a specific talent. That was also a problem with L100 as it was.
I'm concerned that Lenience on the same row as Evangelism just isn't ever good enough to warrant taking in a raid setting, and in lower player count content it's so underwhelming that it would only really ever be taken when Luminous Barrier is just useless for some reason.

We have data from live that at 3% Lenience is only somewhere around 5-9% of total healing worth of damage reduction in a Mythic raid, but that's with Evangelism being taken (i.e. 15+ Atonements for around 15 seconds). Without Evangelism I'm not sure that Lenience can ever really compete with Evangelism itself. It's hard to find a use case for Lenience in a world where Evangelism doesn't exist alongside it.
05/23/2018 09:30 PMPosted by Sigma
Mindbender's damage reduced 24%

It has been unintentionally strong ever since the squish, as many people have observed.


Not to jack the thread or anything, but does this go for shadow also? Every time you change discipline in some way it seems to be inadvertently affecting the power of shared spells for the shadow spec also. The biggest examples so far have been Shadow Mend healing and the 6 second ICD on body and soul (Which isn't needed for shadow because our shield already has a cooldown) but this mindbender change would definitely need compensation as things currently stand.
Thank you for the heads up and still looking into Disc's design and play Sigma. It is appreciated.

Quick note on the shadow comment, i posted in another thread and submitted an ingame suggestion to remove the ICD on body and soul since having the ICD on 6 sec and PWS on ~5 sec didn't line up and made the talent wonky to use. Though i also think B&S should not have an ICD and instead give 20% as opposed to feather's 40% to try and even out how far you go in a given period of boosted speed (But really im in the boat of baseline Feathers, and remove that talent row and redo it).

The change to PotDS working with Contrition is an interesting one. Will have to see when this goes live how it compares in numbers and what the % change Is there.

Sins of the Many: without testing the X% and what the DR is for reach atonement out, it will be interesting to see as it seems Sins / Lenience is the intended picks for M+ . But would it be better to have Lenience on the party to reduce incoming AoE damage, but then lower your tank healing (or AoE healing) numbers. Or to use Contrition to AOE / Orison to tank heal still.

Would it be better to have (making up numbers of course) 10% damage buff, then reduced to 0% after 5 atonements instead of say, 10% but 2% for each atonement (since just atonement healing the tank will reduce your healing as that's 1 atonement, so we would never actually SEE that 10% and it would be a "fake" number for healing purposes, of course it would still be there for flat damage). This would also buff our smite absorbs too.

Also, what would your thoughts be on making Lenience baseline (as it is on live now) and putting a light's wrath replacement on the L100 talent tier? Such as suggested throughout, maybe Mind Blast / Mind Spike for shadow theming
05/24/2018 04:29 AMPosted by Isharya
Quick note on the shadow comment, i posted in another thread and submitted an ingame suggestion to remove the ICD on body and soul since having the ICD on 6 sec and PWS on ~5 sec didn't line up and made the talent wonky to use. Though i also think B&S should not have an ICD and instead give 20% as opposed to feather's 40% to try and even out how far you go in a given period of boosted speed (But really im in the boat of baseline Feathers, and remove that talent row and redo it).


The shield ICD is only meant to be there for disc, the specs have two separate versions of body and soul, just whenever sigma makes disc changes it seems to revert shadow onto the discipline one. Also the shadow mend tuning changes seem to keep going over to shadow.
05/23/2018 09:30 PMPosted by Sigma
A few changes for an upcoming beta build.

  • New talent: Sins of the Many. Your damage is increased by up to X%, diminishing for each ally with Atonement.
  • Likely location is L75, pushing Lenience to L100, and removing Grace.

We agree with trying to find a talent that calls to having a smaller number of Atonements out, but are trying a version that still provides some benefit in all situations.


I would imagine the dps bonus will have to be quite large because if it isn't there's not much of a benefit to healing, only dps. If it were a 50% bonus to dps, you wouldn't ever get that bonus for healing.

I assume it would work like this(base X number made up): 50% damage bonus with 0 atonemnts, 25% damage bonus with 1 atonement, 16.66% damage bonus with 2, 12.5% damage bonus with 3 atonements. I'm assuming this is how the talent will diminish return.

The problem is that atonement is 55% of damage done(increased by our new mastery) but this almost halves all the bonuses, 13.75% healing on 1 target, 9.1% healing on 2, 6.8% healing on 3.

This is what I meant that the damage bonus will have to be so large to have any impact on our healing. Disc will be doing too much damage in some situations that this talent will probably be either terrible due to low numbers or far too high disc dps and will have to be changed.

My question is why not just make a new iteration of trinity? What we need is more atonement throughput in 5 mans.

Note: this is all speculation until we can test it but these are my predictions. My real concern overall with this talent is this: can it do enough extra healing in 5 mans to make it compete with contrition(which still doesn't provide enough healing to keep the group alive in more challenging 5 man content) without being an insane dps increase with none or one atonement up?
Hmm, really curious to see how the numbers will work. I was anticipating Sins of the Many to be more like a 30% increase with -2% for every atonement up (so turning neutral at 15 atonements). That way it would be strong for 1-5 mans, decent for 5-10 (to still somewhat compete with Contrition) and basically useless for our big evangalism spikes in raids (where Contrition would be super strong).

But, that was purely my speculation. They could be much more narrowly focusing it on tank healing as you suggested. I guess we just wait and see...

Could also be a 50% increase that decreased by 5% each atonement, becoming neutral at 10 people... so many possibilities.
05/24/2018 06:40 AMPosted by Progeny
Hmm, really curious to see how the numbers will work. I was anticipating Sins of the Many to be more like a 30% increase with -2% for every atonement up (so turning neutral at 15 atonements). That way it would be strong for 1-5 mans, decent for 5-10 (to still somewhat compete with Contrition) and basically useless for our big evangalism spikes in raids (where Contrition would be super strong).

But, that was purely my speculation. They could be much more narrowly focusing it on tank healing as you suggested. I guess we just wait and see...

Could also be a 50% increase that decreased by 5% each atonement, becoming neutral at 10 people... so many possibilities.


Well right now we are at speculation, so interesting to see how they balance it and where it leaves and Contrition takes over as they share a tier. And if like you said they are balancing it for 5 mans, or 10 mans as opposed to 20 mans. Making it still a viable choice for a smaller normal / heroic 10 man flex raid where it's 2 healers and Disc still needs to pick up some slack instead of a mythic 20 raid where there are 3-4 other healers depending what you run.

My concern is if this turns into a "do not put out more than 3 atonements or Contrition becomes better" because then it will just be a waste of a talent pushing people to use it for high damage with low healing (like an off-healer for just-in-case situations) or tank healing only with atonement but still having high damage.
RIP grace. I will miss you. That will bring Orison down too since it benefited from Grace. Sounds like Contrition will be the better talent even in 5 mans now.

I'm concerned even more about bursting week. It seems like we will be even less equipped to deal with aoe situations without a dps target. On the other hand if disc has that weakness then maybe they are ok with that since we can swap to holy. I think if any other healer had such a glaring weakness it would be more of an issue.

Side note: Any chance of pushing Orison, instead of lenience, to the level 100 talent? Too much power towards shields?
05/24/2018 08:48 AMPosted by Quietguy
RIP grace. I will miss you. That will bring Orison down too since it benefited from Grace. Sounds like Contrition will be the better talent even in 5 mans now.

I'm concerned even more about bursting week. It seems like we will be even less equipped to deal with aoe situations without a dps target. On the other hand if disc has that weakness then maybe they are ok with that since we can swap to holy. I think if any other healer had such a glaring weakness it would be more of an issue.


Well Grace is our mastery. So the current talent was double dipping on mastery, so to speak. We shall see how tuning goes with the change and how Sins of the Many will work. *IF* the damage (healing with atonement) can equal or out-weight the double-dip from Grace then we would be where we started and at least not worse off.

Dark Side's change to work with Contrition at least will help boost that talent a bit. That seems to be our AoE out of combat / burst AoE healing talent for raids.

I just don't see Orison as being a viable talent once all is said and done. It is a nice 50% SP heal for sure on your main applicator, but in M+ our shield is just an applicator and if used outside of combat, it'll be the same as Plea on live in that it's a "wasted" heal. And Orison wasn't healing enough to make it our "heal" spell and was mostly just a side-effect. You would still be doing Atonement healing or defensive penance instead. And in the case of large AoE damage, Radiance + Contrition ( + Power of the Dark Side) will be how we are supposed to "boost" the group up. If our spell priority ends up being offensive + spam shadow mend then not sure how much PWS will play into it outside of Rapture CDs.

Now if Sins of the Many works out that we Radiance and then Offensive penance for more than Contrition then that will be the only change but Orison just doesn't feel super powerful right now. Now Sins *should* do more than Contrition since as it stands right now, Contrition on beta heals for just slightly more than offensive penance. Aside from the actual healing portion from penance itself. PotDS made offensive penance better than contrition. Seems that will no be the case anymore with PotDS buffing contrition as well. But if we end up doing more damage then offensive penance would be more than contrition's 16% is currently scaled at.

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