[PvE] BfA Discipline Priest Feedback

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05/24/2018 05:23 AMPosted by Dèusxmachina
My question is why not just make a new iteration of trinity? What we need is more atonement throughput in 5 mans.


It is indeed a possible solution but let me go in depth in this issue.

During the discussion of Legion beta I have made a long post concerning the "healing per capita" problem of disc. In short. if we have lots of people with atonement buff, the total healing delivered by the disc is high. However, the healing for each player (what I called "healing per capita") is not high. In dungeons, as I anticipated, this problem would appear clearly. I suggested Blizzard to adopt some scaling on the dps-heal transfer according the number of atonements. The bigger is the number of atonements, the lesser is the healing done through atonement. I think this joins what you are proposing.

This should be baseline in fact!
So couldn't this new talent be cheesed by just putting atonement on 2 tanks and dpsing?

How about 4 disc priests who split the raid to only have 5 atonements out to maximize the dps/atonement healing?

This talent does have one bit of flexibility trinity wouldn't have. The ability to swap from focused healing with few atonement to raid healing with spread atonements. The overall healing would be about the same but increase the skill cap to know how to switch styles depending on what part of the encounter you were doing. Maybe this talent will prove to be an interesting new way to "disc".
Relieved to see Blizzard agree with the sentiment of much of the Disc community in that Atonement healing in small environments is lacking.

Excited to see an approach to tackling that with a broader and more interesting talent option than simply Trinity 2.0. Sins of the Many sounds like it could be exactly what Disc needs in M+. This will entirely depend on the numbers tuning though the mechanics of the talent seem sound. Increases damage by 50% and is lowered by 5% for each Atonement out or something similar which becomes neutral at ~10 Atonements would be fantastic as it would thus significantly buff damage output at 5 Atonements.

I like this idea of allowing talent options to make Discs in raids focus on healing 10-15 targets but lack damage OR heal 1-5 targets in M+ and PvP while bringing more damage.

If tuned properly it will:
- buff Tank healing in M+
- buff M+ healing in general
- buff M+ damage output which could become Disc's utility niche
- buff Disc's solo questing damage
- buff Disc's offensive damaging power in PvP
- give raiding Disc's an option for low Atonement fights like eye in EN
- maybe give raiding Discs a tank healing niche

All that being said; if it ends up being 10% damage decreased by 2% per Atonement or something numerically weak it's going to be garbage.
05/24/2018 01:11 PMPosted by Ryfe
All that being said; if it ends up being 10% damage decreased by 2% per Atonement or something numerically weak it's going to be garbage.


If you are referring to my numbers on that, those were just placeholders for easy math. 50% damage buff seems "unreasonable" and will for sure be a requirement for leveling / world quests. And may prove too much in PVP. Imagine that talent in arenas.

05/24/2018 01:04 PMPosted by Quietguy
So couldn't this new talent be cheesed by just putting atonement on 2 tanks and dpsing?
How about 4 disc priests who split the raid to only have 5 atonements out to maximize the dps/atonement healing?


I don't think anyone in their right mind would take 4 disc priests to heal a raid because they'd really be losing out on so much of what the other healers can do situationally and their CDs. But I could see probably having 2 Disc priests to "cheese" an encounter with that mechanic.

I think that in an ideal world, Sins with 5 atonements (so M+ really) should bring our healing to what RDruids and HPaladins are at now and not some extreme level of healing that is otherworldly.

I can just see it being tweaked a lot during the xpac based on gear as damage scales up, the atonement healing would scale up too, and if it outpaces something else they might nerf that % down.
I think folks are being a bit optimistic on possible SOTM numbers. I’d expect something like 20% at the maximum of zero atonements, dropping swiftly thereafter.
Not to quote myself but apparently it is 10% damage buff...
05/24/2018 02:55 PMPosted by Isharya
Not to quote myself but apparently it is 10% damage buff...


dead talent, straight disc nerf, very enjoyable build.
05/23/2018 09:30 PMPosted by Sigma
A few changes for an upcoming beta build.

New talent: Sins of the Many. Your damage is increased by up to X%, diminishing for each ally with Atonement.
Likely location is L75, pushing Lenience to L100, and removing Grace.

We agree with trying to find a talent that calls to having a smaller number of Atonements out, but are trying a version that still provides some benefit in all situations.

Grace's concept was generally subsumed by the new mastery (which is seeming successful so far), and stacking Grace on top of mastery led to huge variance in the strength of Shadow Mend and Power Word: Shield casts. Making that choice with mastery is a better place than making it with a talent that was essentially required in some types of content.

The talent rearrangement should leave L100 as a row of talents that most show their strength when effectively healing a large number of targets, and L75 as a row of talents less focused on that situation.


Thanks Sigma for the feedback, I like the concept of moving from grace to a talent option that encourages us to dps and that makes atonement stronger in smaller groups, I'm a bit confused with the wording of the new 'Sins of the Many' talent..

Based on the name (same as the artifact trait) it leads me to believe that the more atonements we have the more damage we will do but the growth rate of the damage is gonna slow down as we ramp up in atonements.. An example of this model would be a 10% increase at 5 stacks, then a 15% increase at 10 stacks, and finally a 17.5% increase at 15 stacks..

But based on the wording it sounds more like we get a flat damage increase at 0 atonements that would decreases the more atonements we have.. So this model would look something like: 20% damage bonus at 0 stacks, then only 15% at 5 stacks, then 10% at 10 stacks, 5% at 15 stacks and no damage bonus at 20 stacks..

which one is it?
05/24/2018 02:57 PMPosted by Aforethought
dead talent, straight disc nerf, very enjoyable build.


I'll have to look at it and test and see what the falloff is and throw some atonements out and compare my smite heals with and without it and with Contrition but. 10% damage is only a 5.5% atonement buff, but of course if the number of atonements make it go down then having 5 atonements out makes the talent 2% if not null... 55% of 2% is 1.1% soooo napkin math says useless.. but let's see what It ends up being.
05/24/2018 02:59 PMPosted by Holymonky
Based on the name (same as the artifact trait) it leads me to believe that the more atonements we have the more damage we will do but the growth rate of the damage is gonna slow down as we ramp up in atonements.. An example of this model would be a 10% increase at 5 stacks, then a 15% increase at 10 stacks, and finally a 17.5% increase at 15 stacks..

But based on the wording it sounds more like we get a flat damage increase at 0 atonements that would decreases the more atonements we have.. So this model would look something like: 20% damage bonus at 0 stacks, then only 15% at 5 stacks, then 10% at 10 stacks, 5% at 15 stacks and no damage bonus at 20 stacks..


Quoting myself here as I see everybody already assuming is the second model I posted, if it's like that I don't really like it, I don't think that a talent that punishes you for having more atonements is good design.. but I think there's still the chance that is the first one I posted.. and if it's that I would actually like it to be even more biased towards the first few atonements, for example 3% per atonement capping at 15% total increase I believe something like that would be very good.
05/23/2018 09:30 PMPosted by Sigma
A few changes for an upcoming beta build.

  • New talent: Sins of the Many. Your damage is increased by up to X%, diminishing for each ally with Atonement.
  • Likely location is L75, pushing Lenience to L100, and removing Grace.

We agree with trying to find a talent that calls to having a smaller number of Atonements out, but are trying a version that still provides some benefit in all situations.

Grace's concept was generally subsumed by the new mastery (which is seeming successful so far), and stacking Grace on top of mastery led to huge variance in the strength of Shadow Mend and Power Word: Shield casts. Making that choice with mastery is a better place than making it with a talent that was essentially required in some types of content.

The talent rearrangement should leave L100 as a row of talents that most show their strength when effectively healing a large number of targets, and L75 as a row of talents less focused on that situation.

  • Contrition's healing is increased by Power of the Dark Side

So that Power of the Dark Side remains neutral as to your choice of which mode of Penance to use.

  • Mindbender's damage reduced 24%

It has been unintentionally strong ever since the squish, as many people have observed.


If we go by the numbers shown on WoWhead, Sins of the Many starts off at 10% and (I am assuming) drops off by 1% per atonement, in a best case scenario.

I have to say that the talent, to me, feels unimpressive to say the least.

The way I see it, basically, it is a 10% increase to our DPS for completely trivial content, when we don't need to heal ourselves even.

In non-trivial solo content, it is a 9% increase to our DPS (and a 5%? increase in healing).

Where it matters though:
In group content, it is a 5% increase in DPS and a 2-3% increase in healing -- which feels insignificant.
In a raid, this talent would not be picked...

I honestly don't know how much more tuning is to happen for healers in dungeons and raids but I don't think Sins of the Many is a talent that's going to be offering us an interesting alternative to pick.

If they don't want it to be a pick for raids, there are several other existing talents which have raid conditionals in them (i.e. "When not in a raid, this talent heals for 100% more"), so I am assuming it would be easy enough to put something similar to this as well.

A 25% or 30% baseline increase in DPS for 0 Atonements, with 15% or 20% for 1 Atonement, 5% or 10% for 2 and 0% for 3 or more would make more sense to me.

As others have said, at the moment, this is a direct nerf for us so hopefully it'll get tweaked (or completely revamped).
05/24/2018 03:06 PMPosted by Daervon
If we go by the numbers shown on WoWhead, Sins of the Many starts off at 10% and (I am assuming) drops off by 1% per atonement, in a best case scenario.


Where in WoWhead are you seeing this? What I see for sins of the many is the artifact traits that just gives a 1% increase per atonement.

05/24/2018 03:06 PMPosted by Daervon
A 25% or 30% baseline increase in DPS for 0 Atonements, with 15% or 20% for 1 Atonement, 5% or 10% for 2 and 0% for 3 or more would make more sense to me.


Much rather have it be the other way, a 0% increase at 0 atonements then growing by 3% per atonement and caping at 15%
Interesting side note.. currently on beta Luminous Barrier does NOT replace Power Word: Barrier... bug.. intended? I don't know...

But i think Sins is bugged on beta right now.. at least on a training dummy i do not see an increase in damagee with no atonements, or a change in healing transferred via atonement healing and i threw atonements on everyone at the target dummies.

Also Contrition didn't seem to get buffed from PotDS.

Not sure if anyone recalls the 110 base gear numbers for mind bender but right now each hit is 717 HP non-crit at ilevel 197
05/24/2018 03:14 PMPosted by Isharya
Interesting side note.. currently on beta Luminous Barrier does NOT replace Power Word: Barrier... bug.. intended? I don't know...


Oh this is a bug.. Lenience replaces PW: Barrier... because they changed spots... ok nothing to see here move along I got excited for nothing :(
Where in WoWhead are you seeing this? What I see for sins of the many is the artifact traits that just gives a 1% increase per atonement.


Here you go:
http://www.wowhead.com/news=284605/battle-for-azeroth-26707-class-changes-and-azerite-traits

The pertinent part for our talent:

--Grace: Increases your non-Atonement healing and absorption by 20% on targets with Atonement. (Removed)

--Lenience: Atonement reduces damage taken by 3%. (Now requires Level 100, up from 75 - Tier 7 Talent, in place of Luminous Barrier)

-- NEW Sins of the Many: Your damage is increased by up to 10%, diminishing for each ally affected by your Atonement. (Tier 5 Talent, in place of Lenience)
Wasn't there suppose to be a buff to the baseline shields and shadow mend and atonement healing to compensate? I don't see that in the patch notes.

I tried Sins of the Martyr in a dungeon just to see if it worked in there. No damage increase on any spells.

05/23/2018 10:12 PMPosted by Sigma
At the moment, there's some baseline compensation on Shadow Mend and Power Word: Shield, which were so often buffed by Grace in the situations where they were most important. The final amount that will be appropriate is still somewhat up in the air after all the changes (including having mastery affecting them).
No buffs in this build at least...

Personally I'd like to see one of two changes:

1) Luminous Barrier should apply PW:S (or ever x2 PW:S) on all allies within 40 yards (and Atonement), have a cooldown timer similar to HW: Salvation and have Penance reduce that timer by 30 sec

2) Alternatively, a talent (perhaps even a reworked Sins of the Many) which would cause PW:S to spread Atonement to one or two nearby allies.
Quick clarifications (all still subject to ongoing change), since this build was in a slightly intermediate state.

--Sins isn't correctly working in this build. The buff appears, but isn't increasing damage or Atonement.
--Tuning is pretty preliminary, but for context on the 75 row, Contrition is likely too strong, because it skews the choice between the modes of Penance too much. Contrition's heal should be weaker than a Penance Atonement, so that it's still a choice about doing more group healing vs. focusing on one target.
--Also on the 75 row--we're currently planning to replace Orison with Shadow Covenant.
--Luminous Barrier is still intended to replace PW:Barrier, as before.
--Current plan is to buff Shadow Mend a bit, as mentioned yesterday. Less sure about PW:S after reviewing more. Shadow Mend was more strongly propped up by Grace.

We're seeing all the feedback on relative balance of talents within a row, but I don't want to make any claims or promises on which talents might eventually land higher/lower. We just rearranged a lot, and whatever I say will probably be proven wrong once we give a more thorough look and heavier testing happens on beta.
05/24/2018 05:05 PMPosted by Sigma
Also on the 75 row--we're currently planning to replace Orison with Shadow Covenant.


Probably the right move. Takes a little power away from PW:Shields and give us back a tool to deal with bursting.

But my 2 favorite talents in dungeons purged so quickly
My dreams of Shadow Covenant being dead forever is shattered once again.

Or is it an all new and all interesting Shadow Covenant /hopeful

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