[PvE] BfA Discipline Priest Feedback

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05/24/2018 08:33 PMPosted by Aforethought
I know the folks at blizzard are working hard to reinvent the wheel as much as we’ve come to expect, but there are a lot of good ideas floating around that don’t include resuscitating (rightfully) dead talents like Shadow Cov and stacking all the talents we’d use in a given situation together to create an illusion of choice.

It won’t be a choice between Shadow Cov, Contrition, and Sins of the Many - we’ll just pick the mathematically best one for M+ (It won’t be shadow cov), miss out on all the benefits of the others, and then have to suffer through keys for another expansion because all the talents which could improve us are locked into the same row.


Agree completely, so close to launch I think is ok if some rows have different talents tailored for different situations and the ability to support them with choices from other rows.

05/24/2018 07:57 PMPosted by Progeny
I went from being really excited this morning thinking about disc having several potential playstyles... Orison/SD/ToF, Contrition/Castigation/MB, Schism/Solace/Sins... to being very scared about the direction we’re going in. It seems like the L75 is going to go from one of our most exciting tiers to one of our least.


Agree with you 100% here, being able to pick a set of talents to empower one playstile then being able to change it to a different group of talents that focuses on something else makes a good talent tree, there's no need to have all talents in the same tier compete with each other for all types of content, you're right about the L75 row too, I liked the choices there from past builds, I much rather have orison than shadow cov..

Here's my analysis on the talent trees:

Lvl 15 - That row is great leave it like that.

Lvl 30 - I'll most likely take feather in every situation, maybe a talent that increases your movement speed by X% per atonement up to Y% could be cool (instead of body and soul), as for masochism if we are sacrificing our only mobility talent it needs to be for something stronger in return.

Lvl 45 - I think that with proper tuning this row is ok as well.

Lvl 60 - Ok, whatever, hmm does the MC unit damage transfer to atonement healing? that could be interesting if so.

Lvl 75 - I think Lenience/Orison/Contrition was pretty good as it was it just needed tuning... sure nothing super exciting in terms of gameplay interactions but all seemed solid in their own right and even better when supported with the proper complementary talents from other rows. I liked it much more than Sins/SC/Contrition..

Lvl 100 - I still think Evangelism should be baseline as it doesn't provide much in 5-mans but feels mandatory in raids, gonna stand by my suggestion of having SinsOfTheMany/Grace/3rdTalent.. That would make for a super impactful talent choice as selecting between Grace and Sins basically means that you get to choose to double down on one side of your mastery so you can go for a more tank and spot heal oriented build (Grace) or a more group-wide aoe type of build with some extra dps (Sins), and then support that with your other talent choices.. even thematically it fits as Disc is about the balance of shadow and light and this talent would be like choosing to lean towards one or the other a bit... as for the 3rd talent I guess it can be luminous barrier which I don't particularly love but oh well, still rather have LightsWrath or Velens trinket active effect attached to evangelism, I mean a lot of us enjoyed Legion Disc, is burst healing really that much of an issue?, can't that just remain to be our niche for Raids as it was in Legion?
Missed Lvl 90 row.. I think that one is ok too as long as divine star and halo are strong enough to compete, please let them be, Halo is so cool I would love it to be competitive in BFA.
Hey guys,

I know this is more of a feedback thread but since other suggestions are made I want to add another perspective.

It seems that one of the goals of the BfA discipline priest is to make it easier at a basic level. At least that is what some have mentioned here.
So a question I would actually ask about the new design is not the question of having a lot of options for experienced disc priests in either M+ or raids but also whether certain talents are added with the intention to ease the basic gameplay for beginners.

The Orison talent in the Lvl 75 row for example seems like a good example of something like that. From my current pov, Orison does not add a lot to a disc priests toolset because we should actually be ahead of the damage anyway. However, for less experienced players having a small heal added to PW:S actually might help them to keep up.

I actually tried some different talent choices in the BfA beta with using the new schism along with PW:Solace (which actually adds some burst due to its seemingly high crit chance (just speculations)) and Orison and it actually worked quite well for me in the dungeon contents I played so far. Of course I know that this is not the optimal way to play (I actually got inspired by the way the chinese disc played in the MDI) but it definitely can work.

So if we look at the current talents:
  • Which are talents which are aimed to add something we can "abuse"? ("skill ceiling")
  • Which are talents which will help new players? ("skill floor")
  • Do you think it would be a good/bad idea to try to balance some talents to be more beginner friendly? Why/why not?
  • I will say that since Luminous Barrier was bugged yesterday on beta when I was trying warfronts, and I could take it without losing barrier. I will say that it did come in handy in that content. So I would say it does have some use for more spread content (since disc will need to heal outside of M+ and Raids too now with newer content like Mythic Islands and war fronts if they end up being "a thing")

    Evangelism being baseline, I could take it or leave it. Im fine with it being our "raid talent" that we pick most of the time, and we pick LB if those situations where we need the bubble to avoid some incoming damage instead of putting evangelism on everyone to heal it up (if the damage ends up being too high to catch up). But with Lenience being in L100 it will almost never be taken in a raid, which is sad as it is baseline now and is very much in line with our spec's "feel".

    I think Lenience should be baseline as it is. And a light's wrath replacement is needed. Our "class fantasy" is absorbs and healing through damage. But we have flat heals for situations where those fantasies take a back seat to game mechanics. and understandably so. But having that 3% damage reduction will work in every situation in the game. Or if 3% is too much baseline it at 2% like on live.

    I like Holymonkey's comment abut replacing Body and Soul with something that makes us move faster the number of atonements we have. Or just take the talent from our artifact now that makes us move faster after casting penance (Speed of the Pious). Though I think in general feathers should be baseline for Disc / Holy.

    My ideal talents would be something like:

    L15: Fine how it is

    L30: (baseline feathers) Fade reduces damage taken, Speed of the Pious, and Masochism

    L45: fine how it is
    L60: Fine how it is

    L75: Mind blast, Orison, Contrition

    L90: Fine how it is

    L100: baseline Lenience) Luminous Barrier, Evengelism, Sins of the Many (reworked).

    As for shadow covenant, wouldn't that basically be the same as Contrition? I get the difference of SC has a 5 person limit, and Contrition doesn't so it's more for Raids. But that's 2 AoE talents in the same row?
    05/25/2018 05:30 AMPosted by Isharya
    As for shadow covenant, wouldn't that basically be the same as Contrition? I get the difference of SC has a 5 person limit, and Contrition doesn't so it's more for Raids. But that's 2 AoE talents in the same row?


    I think the intention is just for the type of content (5-man vs. raid), and that with SC you'd keep your offensive Penance/doesn't require Atonements. IE. PWR + Penance (if mob available) + SC spam. Then SotM is for when you want more DPS. But then again, with SC and keeping offensive Penance, isn't that technically more DPS anyway (vs Contrition)?

    I'm guessing some talent places are going to be reshuffled. 75 and 90 rows are kind of redundant as well, one row of AoE stuff and then another.
    I'd much rather have grace and/or orison than shadow covenant. Our ST healing took a big hit when you get rid of both. Especially while moving. I spent a good amount of time thinking about how to make these new/upcoming changes work but were just weaker now in ST and mobility and no better in AOE. Feels like a punch in the gut.

    05/24/2018 05:05 PMPosted by Sigma
    -Current plan is to buff Shadow Mend a bit, as mentioned yesterday. Less sure about PW:S after reviewing more. Shadow Mend was more strongly propped up by Grace.


    PW:S was actually more propped up by Grace than Shadow Mend. When you took Grace/Orison you would only cast Shadow Mend to get a person up above upcoming lethal damage. The rest/most of the time you'd just reapply shields as they dropped off because they did equal healing to shadow mend even before the damage dot. Removing Grace and later Orison is a serious hit to PW:S in dungeons. In raids were using it more like plea so less of a hit.

    Just to put it into perspective. Not having Orison reduces PW:S down to ~68% of it's value. Not having Orison and Grace when the target has atonement, which is most of the time in dungeons, reduces PW:S down to ~52% of it's value. Almost cutting it in half.

    You could make the argument that Orison and Grace were too strong but we were only going to take them in dungeons. The reason they needed to be strong is disc scales too well in raids so they end up ridiculously weak in dungeons but Orison and Grace prop them up in dungeons but they are a hindrance in raids where the play style in raids that makes us scale well wont be able to utilize Grace and Contrition becomes better than Orison. At 10% Sins of the Many won't be viable because atonement wont keep up and we will be back to Shadow Mend spamming. Shadow Covenant is just a bandaid for bursting between pulls. These are not comparable replacements.
    Grace's removal was probably inevitable once they changed Mastery, and I think not just because of the overlap but because of the way it necessitated a bunch of specific new rules for interacting with other talents and spells. It's one thing to buff Shadow Mend as compensation for its removal because it doesn't significantly alter the power of the spec or the playstyle in raids, but buffing PW: S sets up a cascade of new balancing issues across talents and content I'm guessing they'd rather avoid. SCov and SotM (or Few), to a lesser degree, are comparatively more straightforward to tune, and, once tuned properly, should help solve problems in 5mans without creating a bunch of new ones for raids.

    ETA: They don't seem to have landed on where they want disc to be just yet, so there are probably still quite a few changes to come.
    One thing I don't see discussed which I think has a place being baseline in the disc toolkit is Power Infusion. Even going back to how it used to be castable on other targets too.

    Evangelism does feel like a cooldown that should be baseline too, however from first glance it does seem like the L100 Talents would be competitive as is for raiding.

    Good big cooldowns seem to be lacking in the disc toolkit outside of talents. Gone is the LW combo/Velen's trinket. PI would be a great cooldown to add back to the baseline toolkit for all types of content. It would give the haste required to play catchup in M+ if you fall behind or to quickly ramp up atonements on the raid.

    I hope to see either PI or Evangelism baked into the base toolkit for disc.
    Talent tree needs work. I feel like it would be a good approach to delineate Disc into three kind of play styles, and approach the talent tree design accordingly. Raiding, 5 man content, and perhaps a damage/atonement focused play style.

    It's clear Disc runs into problems when you try to strengthen one part of the toolkit, it makes it too overpowered in other parts. And vice versa. I think controlling this has to come either via talents (by making us choose between a strong raid talent OR a 5 man talent), or by putting caps on spells.

    I don't like the idea of Shadow Covenant making a return as a talent. I'd rather have the combination of Grace as talent and Contrition. Or if Contrition was actually baseline, with a cap of 5 targets, slightly more powerful the less targets have Atonement on them. It's much more interesting to me to make an on the fly choice whether to use my Penance offensively or defensively, than use Shadow Covenant. Perhaps you could replace its talent with one which unlocks the cap, but with a flat or decreased power.

    I really want more abilities or talents that strengthen the Atonement play style. Sins of the Many is a great addition in my opinion, but the problem is we NEED to pick Contrition to stabilise our party in 5 mans. Adding Shadow Covenant to solve this is the wrong direction in my opinion. I wish we could have the Holy Paladin talent Avenging Crusader, so much fun, and perfectly fits with Disc as damage to heal.

    Lastly, while Disc does have a lot to do, it still feels like we're missing something with a bit of oomph. We lost Light's Wrath, Power Infusion, and I'm not sure we'd pick Mindbender for raiding. Having two 'hit this button to increase absorbs' as our raid cd's, is just boring as heck. I like Luminous being same tier as Evangelism. But I'd rather have Sins of the Many be a baseline cd, with Rapture as a talent instead. Rapture as a talent competing with Contrition would be a more interesting choice.
    I'm honestly not really worried much about disc in raids, just that we will have trouble doing sustained aoe I imagine. I'm somewhat ok with that if we've got strong burst aoe healing and good tank/high damage target healing. Overhealing is still my main concern with the loss of velen's, but we'll see.

    What worries me is m+. I don't see any changes that will address this. Sins of the many cannot work out. Having half the healing of the damage modifier makes it so that it will either be underwhelming (currently 5% healing with 0 atonements lol) or overpowered (too high dps). We're losing 20% non atonement healing from the loss of grace and got 5% more atonement healing max. We need at least 15% more atonement healing for 5 mans in order to do high keystones.
    Everything in the last patch hurt disc in M+, an area in which the spec spent two years being far from the best, and possibly serviceable if the player was very talented.

    That is no good.
    Can Sins of the Many instead increase our atonement healing? That way you can make it something big like 40-50% additional atonement healing but reduced by ~5% per atonement (after 1) so we won't get a huge dps boost. As of now, 10% damage is terrible as its only 4% healing without any atonements out.

    Also please reconsider Shadow Cov. People pick the talent but nobody likes it. I feel like Lenience should take the place of Orison in that row and just permanently delete Shadow Cov from the game.

    You say you want talents to be a choice however you made the lvl100 row all work in the same situation (great with high #'s of atonements), and the lvl 75 row is all about Mythic+, so will just pick the best talents (Evang/Sins? Depends on final %). Lenience worked well because we had Evang, but without Evang Lenience is MUCH weaker. Lum Barrier is only good when it can be abused, but since we lose Barrier but keep it when we pick Evang its going to be super niche.

    Just make Evang baseline and add another talent there so we can have real choices in raids, because Evang is really the only choice. In Mythic+ all 3 are meh.
    The return of shadow covenant is extremely troubling. As well as shadow mend buffs.

    Disc priests are supposed to be moved closer to the theme of atonement healing and bubble healing... so why are we getting a talent that does not fit those two themes and seemingly was a bandaid in Legion for m+ healing? And it is replacing Orison of all things.

    The greater the need for Shadow covenant and Shadow mend, the greater the sign that something is seriously lacking in the baseline toolkit that discipline priests have. Surely it is possible to make atonement and absorb healing work in concert, rather than fall back to direct healing.

    I was most excited for disc priests in bfa, but I am rapidly losing faith. I'm excited for the replacement of plea with no cd PW:S, but signs point to that the developers are being overly concerned about a repeat of WoD PW:S being too powerful. It is preventing them from being bold about our small-scale party healing.

    Paired along with the notion that Disc Priests should not have bursty raid healing tools is very disheartening-- The nature of atonement healing is that we prepare by putting down atonements. Since atonements drop off--- of course our raid damage needs to be bursty and spikey because we have a limited window to curate for atonement healing.

    Maybe increase the length of atonement to what it was at the start of Legion? Maybe make evangelism baseline. Maybe have atonements last a very long time baseline, and each additional atonement decreases the duration of existing atonements? Maybe have dedicated spells/abilities that nass applies atonements? I mean that's basically what plea and PW:R is being used for (not their healing component) in live. There are so many possible design options.. the fall back to direct healing is just very confusing.
    Mechanically, Sins of the Many is exactly what Disc needs.

    It's a talent that should compete with mass atonement healing options like Evangelism. To be clear; both Evangelism and Sins are Atonement healing talents; one increases Atonement coverage and the other should significantly increase the Atonement throughput, just on fewer targets. This kind of choice is exactly what Disc needs and is what talents should be.

    Sins offers another dynamic though; damage increase. This is also exactly what Disc needs in M+ content and PvP. It makes sense and fits the fantasy of the spec that the healer which deals damage to heal people also actually deals damage. There is no reason Disc shouldn't be the highest DPS healer. It doesn't have to be by much but it should be the best at this.

    I think this could a good time to revisit Atonement duration. Currently PW:R isn't particularly useful in M+ unless the Disc has been greedy DPS'ing prior to incoming damage or was being lazy. This will be even more true in BfA where it will be optimal to get everyone shielded with PW:S before incoming damage arrives.

    Atonement duration is another mechanism that could allow for a significantly stronger Sins of the Many. If Sins competed with Evangelism and Evangelism also increased Atonement duration by ~3 seconds; the base Atonement duration could be reduced by ~3 seconds.

    The end result would be that raiding Discs wouldn't be effected and could be balanced around the assumption that Evangelism was always taken and M+ Discs would have a powerful talent option for Atonement healing fewer targets but would need to manage Atonement coverage in a more serious manner, perhaps requiring the use of PW:R sometimes. Decreasing base Atonement duration could allow for Evangelism to be made stronger thus allowing for a significantly stronger version of Sins.

    The bottom line is that I think they key to Disc's overall success in BfA will be whether talent options allow for Discs to choose between optimizing Atonement coverage vs optimizing Atonement throughput on fewer targets.
    05/25/2018 03:24 PMPosted by Ryfe
    Mechanically, Sins of the Many is exactly what Disc needs.

    It's a talent that should compete with mass atonement healing options like Evangelism. To be clear; both Evangelism and Sins are Atonement healing talents; one increases Atonement coverage and the other should significantly increase the Atonement throughput, just on fewer targets. This kind of choice is exactly what Disc needs and is what talents should be.

    Sins offers another dynamic though; damage increase. This is also exactly what Disc needs in M+ content and PvP. It makes sense and fits the fantasy of the spec that the healer which deals damage to heal people also actually deals damage. There is no reason Disc shouldn't be the highest DPS healer. It doesn't have to be by much but it should be the best at this.

    I think this could a good time to revisit Atonement duration. Currently PW:R isn't particularly useful in M+ unless the Disc has been greedy DPS'ing prior to incoming damage or was being lazy. This will be even more true in BfA where it will be optimal to get everyone shielded with PW:S before incoming damage arrives.

    Atonement duration is another mechanism that could allow for a significantly stronger Sins of the Many. If Sins competed with Evangelism and Evangelism also increased Atonement duration by ~3 seconds; the base Atonement duration could be reduced by ~3 seconds.

    The end result would be that raiding Discs wouldn't be effected and could be balanced around the assumption that Evangelism was always taken and M+ Discs would have a powerful talent option for Atonement healing fewer targets but would need to manage Atonement coverage in a more serious manner, perhaps requiring the use of PW:R sometimes. Decreasing base Atonement duration could allow for Evangelism to be made stronger thus allowing for a significantly stronger version of Sins.

    The bottom line is that I think they key to Disc's overall success in BfA will be whether talent options allow for Discs to choose between optimizing Atonement coverage vs optimizing Atonement throughput on fewer targets.


    Barring Contrition getting nuked through the ground into the continent on the other side of the earth, no one is taking Sins at 10% though. Ever.
    05/25/2018 11:53 AMPosted by Trinko
    Can Sins of the Many instead increase our atonement healing? That way you can make it something big like 40-50% additional atonement healing but reduced by ~5% per atonement (after 1) so we won't get a huge dps boost. As of now, 10% damage is terrible as its only 4% healing without any atonements out.


    05/25/2018 03:24 PMPosted by Ryfe
    Sins offers another dynamic though; damage increase. This is also exactly what Disc needs in M+ content and PvP. It makes sense and fits the fantasy of the spec that the healer which deals damage to heal people also actually deals damage. There is no reason Disc shouldn't be the highest DPS healer. It doesn't have to be by much but it should be the best at this.


    I like the idea of abilities that increase Atonement transfer %, because by their nature they should be increasing DPS a bit as well (got to Smite more to take advantage of the %). I know it's a little offset in that you have to spend CDs to maintain Atonements, but the idea is there.

    I'm guessing SotM is so low because a high DPS % would affect things like PvP, questing, etc. greatly for a Disc Priest. Maybe instead it should focus on raising Atonement transfer % so that a higher amount can be allowed. In that way you get more heals but also feel like a DPS-healer still without the DPS going crazy high.
    I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere but luminous barrier is affected by our mastery, but not vers. In case anyone was wondering
    Did some dungeons today to test things (Sins of the Many is not working yet) but didn't miss Grace as much as I expected, I guess in part because of contrition and how strong penance direct heal component is so it made up for the spot heal part a little bit but it definitely felt like offensive penance was not worth using, with my current gear (320ish) it does 26.7k direct healing (with castigation and mastery buff), or 8.2k damage so the aoe part (from atonement or contrition) does 5.7k per target, for 5 targets that's 28.5k so basically using it defensively made it twice as good in terms of HPS, while using it offensively doesn't really provide that much damage.

    So I think that in order to 'nerf' contrition the solution is to actually buff its numbers, sounds werid but what I mean is buffing offensive penance and adjusting contrition accordingly so the aoe component feels stronger compared to the direct heal component and the relative 'loss' feels smaller, before in this same thread I posted a comparison on how much weaker offensive penance is in Beta compared to Legion.. baseline right now is almost the same as smite in terms of dps.

    Also being thinking about Sins of the Many talent and how a 10% buff that is reduced by each atonement feels so small, but there's also the problem of buffing our dps too much, so how about a slight change, still a 10% buff but it gets reduced by each atonement after 5?, so for the first 5 atonements there's no punish and from there it starts scaling down.
    SotM needs to be something like balancing around 5 atonements. Your dps should do a flat amount of atonement healing that can be directed towards one atonement or up to 5. Anything after that you have diminishing returns. Maybe 5 is the wrong number but something along those lines.

    Having it buff dps keeps the percentage too low. It needs to buff atonement healing. Something crazy like 200% atonement healing on one atonement scaled down to our mastery numbers at 5 atonements and then diminished down from there.

    Kind of like resto druid mastery where if you focus one target all your heals become stronger but you sacrifice that power as you spread out your healing to more targets.

    Actually you could get rid of the talent and just bake that right into our mastery.
    I don't like the current contrition+Penance interaction as I have no idea why it does twice as much healing penance as it does damage.

    It's now feels like we just need an extra step to be a healing class, by giving people atonement just to heal them effectively.

    The scales still feel tipped towards just healing rather than healing through damage.

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