[PvE] BfA Discipline Priest Feedback

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Just for fun but whatever may come for this I took another look at the talents and thought of ways to maybe provide even more ideas on how to adapt our talent tree without making a massive amount of changes so Disc can keep the Raid niche it has in Legion and also address the issues in M+, I did it mostly for fun but I think the result is pretty nice and would like to share it / ask support from other Discs to at least consider some of this.. Pls at least take a look at LVL 100 talent row I think its what Disc needs, one talent that is super good for small groups without being broken, one that is very good for groups of 20ish ppl and one that is super good for large groups.

LVL 15: (No changes)
This row is very good and balanced already.

LVL 30: (No changes)
This row can be improved for sure but don't want the focus to be on this, it is not a massive deal.

LVL 45:
PW:Solace.
Mindbender.
Purge of the Wicked: Moved to this row and added an extra effect: Each tick has an X% chance to restore 1% mana, balance it out so mana regen comes even with the other talents somewhere between 2 and 3 targets, also re-balance the damage it does if needed.

*Shield Discipline baseline, it is a nice basic mechanic that every Disc should manage already but as a talent it doesn't add much to the gameplay and we could really use some extra mana so innervates/wisdoms + mana trinkets are not mandatory to play the spec.

LVL 60: (No Changes).

LVL 75: (All changed)
Sins of the Many (BFA). - Ideally more like a 5-man trinity version than the current iteration, but just something to increase atonement throughput in dungeons or small groups.
Sins of the Many (artifact). - The artifact trait version that gives 1% bonus damage per atonement not the BFA one. This one is kind of the opposite of the other one, it increases atonement throughput when you have many atonements out.
Light's Wrath. - Nerf it a bit if needed but I think the other two can compete with this (or make it do half of what it did but always crit so in essence is like before if it never critted)

LVL 90:
Contrition - Moved to this row.
Divine Star.
Halo.

LVL 100: (one very cool new talent)
Luminous Barrier.
Evangelism - Id actually would like Evangelism baseline and here just a talent that empowers it to have the Velen's future sight trinket effect attached to it, but whatever...
Forewarned is forearmed - Power Word Radiance can now apply a second charge of atonement. (similar to how germination works but only radiance can apply the second charge you can't pw:shield and have it apply a second charge) So the idea is that this turns Radiance into an actual AOE healing Cooldown in a dungeon if you were ready in advance with you atonements already out, or damage was unexpected then you can radiance twice and put two charges on everyone, sounds powerful I know but to be fair is probably still not as strong as beacon of virtue so.. oh and it's also very useful in small raids. (Name inspired by the equivalent popular saying in Spanish which translates to "Prepared man is worth two men" but whatever don't care about the name)

Something like this I think would put Disc in a very nice state both in Raids as it can still fulfill the same role in Legion but there are some more interesting choices and the M+ side would also look pretty nice giving Disc the ability to effectively make Power word radiance useful there.
05/31/2018 11:21 PMPosted by Holymonky
Sins of the Many (BFA). - Ideally more like a 5-man trinity version than the current iteration, but just something to increase atonement throughput in dungeons or small groups.
Sins of the Many (artifact). - The artifact trait version that gives 1% bonus damage per atonement not the BFA one. This one is kind of the opposite of the other one, it increases atonement throughput when you have many atonements out.


Or even better make it so they are both one talent and we can switch between Angel and Shadow forms, each of them gives one of these bonuses, that would be so cool, may be too OP haha but definitely cool
Bugs in latest build:
Mindbender/Shadowfiend's damage isn't increased by Sins of the Many
Shadow Covenant isn't affected by 40% Aura and Mastery
Sins of the Many doesn't increase Atonement healing
I see you removed Lenience in your last "Build" Holy. Why is that? You didn't want the extra redux?

I don't think Shield Disc should be baseline, im fine with a "mana regen row". I like your idea of PTW being a mana regen too, but then I would lower it's damage and make it a 2nd dot instead of replacing SW:P. so we can still get those "higher numbers" of DoT ticking healing. or remove penance spread or something to balance it so that it isn't the must have for mana regen. I would think solace could be removed instead. So that we can spend that GCD instead on smite

I still think Lenience should be baseline. I think velen's should become a talent and replace evangelism and baseline that instead too. Then it could see some use in M+ as who wouldn't want a way to extend atonement without having to waste a charge of radiance and be able to keep atonement up for longer in M+ fights without having to "reapply".

I have been saying we need LW back, though for theming ive just been saying Mind Blast but that is semantic. I am *FINE* with LW being removed *IF* we find that we don't really need the high burst from it. But it is unlikely that we will be in that position.

I also think feathers should baseline and be replaced with a talent that makes fade give damage redux like our artifact has now.

For the most part, numbers aside before a true tuning pass, the changes that are being thrown around here are more or less what we already have on live with legendaries and such so it's already "balanced" gameplay that isn't making the spec overpowered in all situations. Again, still would require a true tuning pass.
06/01/2018 07:39 AMPosted by Isharya
I see you removed Lenience in your last "Build" Holy. Why is that? You didn't want the extra redux?

Just didn't wanted to ask for 3-4 talents to become baseline, my goal was to try to keep it close to what we have already, and also tryed to keep the talent choices to be things that alter our gameplay.

06/01/2018 07:39 AMPosted by Isharya
I don't think Shield Disc should be baseline, im fine with a "mana regen row". I like your idea of PTW being a mana regen too, but then I would lower it's damage and make it a 2nd dot instead of replacing SW:P. so we can still get those "higher numbers" of DoT ticking healing. or remove penance spread or something to balance it so that it isn't the must have for mana regen. I would think solace could be removed instead. So that we can spend that GCD instead on smite

Yeah, I see your point as well, and as well as you I like the LVL45 talent row as our mana regen choice but that also brings some interesting gameplay mechanics with it. The problem I have with 'Shield Discipline' is that the only thing it provides is mana (we want our shields to be consumed regardless if we have this talent or not) I think that in raids this talent becomes either undesirable if our mana regen is good enough or mandatory if it's not, and in Dungeons it is always worst than the others since it only gives mana. I think that with proper balance and tuning all 3, solace, mindbener and purge would be choices to consider, and they all bring interesting gameplay as well:

Solace (or call it mindblast if you want) for small bursts of damage, maybe pairing it with Schism, and with the new talent I proposed in row 100 as well.
Purge for cases where we have 2-3 targets we can keep the dot up, requires more upkeep if the targets are not next to each other, you would need to target swap constantly (Coven or Dogs for example), I wouldn't want it to be a second dot apart from sw:pain because it would consume too many globals applying dots, between applying dots and applying atonement you would not have time for much else.
Finally, Mindbender something to pair with large burst windows likely using it with evangelism.

06/01/2018 07:39 AMPosted by Isharya
I still think Lenience should be baseline. I think velen's should become a talent and replace evangelism and baseline that instead too. Then it could see some use in M+ as who wouldn't want a way to extend atonement without having to waste a charge of radiance and be able to keep atonement up for longer in M+ fights without having to "reapply".

Agree with this too but baby steps, didn't wanted to look like I was asking for 20 different things on my list (I commented the evangelism thing in row 100 but I really wanted the focus on the proposed new talent)

06/01/2018 07:39 AMPosted by Isharya
I also think feathers should baseline and be replaced with a talent that makes fade give damage redux like our artifact has now.

Agree again, just didn't wanted this row to be the focus as I think there are other concerns, we can manage with what we have in that row for now, mainly mobility and defensive talents but nothing that is core to make the spec work properly.
Tested Sins of the Many again, still bugged, atonement healing is being calculated before the damage buff so it's essential zero bonus healing.
I just want to put my pov out there for the new Sins of the Many. To me the rework gives a valuable choice that embraces the disc damage and healing. The more atonement the smaller the damage bonus. However, even IF you have atonement on all players in a 5 man, you still have 7% increase in damage that increases atonement healing (Provided there was no bug). I think this is a really interesting trade off. However, I do feel that I am more often spamming shadow mends than healing through atonement because the tank is pulling multiple mobs. This is probably a gear level think and at max level and decent gear will be different.
After playing disc in PvE since WotLK and loved doing it in Legion, I confess I am really disappointed with the spec in BfA so far. I've been testing disc in heroic dungeons in the beta and my conclusions are: it is weak and boring, compared to holy priest, for instance.

My main worries concern Blizzard design choices, which are confuse and incoherent. Excepting the change in the mastery, which was good, most of the changes (including the bizarre return of Shadow Covenant) are hard to understand. Sins of the many is coherent but insufficient. The trade-off between dungeons and raid healing is not well addressed, the trade-off between burst and sustainable heal is not solved, the changes don't take the "natural" directions (reinforcing atonement healing and absorption), and so on. It is a mess! It would be better to make just some adjustments in legion disc. it seems that the developers don't know what to do with the spec.
06/05/2018 09:39 AMPosted by Felizi995D21
it is weak and boring, compared to holy priest, for instance.


I agree with you that it's somewhat weak. However, I don't agree that it's boring compared to Holy Priest. To me, it's a lot more interesting. It's just, I feel helpless quite a bit (though not to the same extent as I did during the Legion Beta).
Disc feels solid from what I've played of it. My only complaint is that applying Rapture shields one by one still doesn't feel great. A nicer ability would be if Rapture causes your damaging spells to place an absorb shield on people with atonement.
06/05/2018 09:39 AMPosted by Felizi995D21
After playing disc in PvE since WotLK and loved doing it in Legion, I confess I am really disappointed with the spec in BfA so far. I've been testing disc in heroic dungeons in the beta and my conclusions are: it is weak and boring, compared to holy priest, for instance.

My main worries concern Blizzard design choices, which are confuse and incoherent. Excepting the change in the mastery, which was good, most of the changes (including the bizarre return of Shadow Covenant) are hard to understand. Sins of the many is coherent but insufficient. The trade-off between dungeons and raid healing is not well addressed, the trade-off between burst and sustainable heal is not solved, the changes don't take the "natural" directions (reinforcing atonement healing and absorption), and so on. It is a mess! It would be better to make just some adjustments in legion disc. it seems that the developers don't know what to do with the spec.


I definitely do not agree that disc is boring compared to Holy. I also do not agree with your opinion on Sins of the Many, at least in part. I agree that SoM needs tuning work, perhaps, but the concept of moving between higher damage and more healing is a more dynamic and engaging change.

Additionally, I am not sure why they had Shadow Covenant return. I feel that sometimes the shadow aspect of disc healing is missing. Besides Shadow Mend we have little.
06/06/2018 09:29 AMPosted by Tyllerrian
06/05/2018 09:39 AMPosted by Felizi995D21
After playing disc in PvE since WotLK and loved doing it in Legion, I confess I am really disappointed with the spec in BfA so far. I've been testing disc in heroic dungeons in the beta and my conclusions are: it is weak and boring, compared to holy priest, for instance.

My main worries concern Blizzard design choices, which are confuse and incoherent. Excepting the change in the mastery, which was good, most of the changes (including the bizarre return of Shadow Covenant) are hard to understand. Sins of the many is coherent but insufficient. The trade-off between dungeons and raid healing is not well addressed, the trade-off between burst and sustainable heal is not solved, the changes don't take the "natural" directions (reinforcing atonement healing and absorption), and so on. It is a mess! It would be better to make just some adjustments in legion disc. it seems that the developers don't know what to do with the spec.


I definitely do not agree that disc is boring compared to Holy. I also do not agree with your opinion on Sins of the Many, at least in part. I agree that SoM needs tuning work, perhaps, but the concept of moving between higher damage and more healing is a more dynamic and engaging change.

Additionally, I am not sure why they had Shadow Covenant return. I feel that sometimes the shadow aspect of disc healing is missing. Besides Shadow Mend we have little.


And SWP/PTW, and Shadowfiend/MB, and upcoming dark archangel.
While also not a fan of the shadow covenant and I'm not happy about it making a return, I can see it perhaps working a bit better that it did in Legion just because of pw:shield having no CD, but that's only for 5-mans (still useless in raids)..

It would be a quite specific scenario to include it in our rotation, would have to be something like: Apply atonement, then burst with a combination of penance, schism, solace, divine star, or a few smites (varies depending on talent choices) then finishing up with shadow covenant and then proceed to pw:shield everyone while the healing absorb drops. Again I'm not a fan of the talent and much rather have something that supports atonement healing, just trying to make some sense into why is it back..

06/05/2018 09:39 AMPosted by Felizi995D21
it is weak and boring, compared to holy priest, for instance.

Weak in current build definitely. Boring.. hmm I wouldn't say boring compared to Holy Priest, but it's less fun than Legion Disc.
Been playing a Schism/Sins/Solace build on beta for the past couple of days and, despite Sins not working properly, the playstyle is so much more what I expected from Disc than the odd Casti/Contrition playstyle.

Add to that the satisfaction of “the DPS healer” finally feeling like the strongest DPS healer and I can’t wait to see what the spec can do when the Sins bug is fixed. Hopefully that fix is in the next build.

Tuning wise I’d like to see the Sins % brought up to 15 but it’s hard to call numbers without the proper atonement transfer.
Im sure this is mentioned somewhere, but just started leveling a Disc on beta and power of the dark side could really use a proc animation rather than just arbitrarily applying the buff with no notice.
Players: "Shadow Cov coming back...seriously? We just got rid of this at last. Well it's useless in Legion so it has to at least be improved somehow, right?"

Blizz: *giggle*

Players: "What the what...it's exactly the same? As Legion?? No good player ever picked it, ever. Why???"

Blizz: *GIGGLEGIGGLEGIGGLE*

(today) Players: "And now you NERFED SHADOW COV so its inexplicably even more useless in 5man content, the only feasible time even bad players would ever possibly have chosen it?????"
06/07/2018 06:50 AMPosted by Vîölet
Been playing a Schism/Sins/Solace build on beta for the past couple of days and, despite Sins not working properly, the playstyle is so much more what I expected from Disc than the odd Casti/Contrition playstyle.

Agree with you on this, I was able to test tonight with Sins now working properly and felt pretty good running Shichsm/Sins/Mindbeder (was gonna take solace but had 2x the azerite trait that gives bonus damage to smite when you have 3+ atonements so went mindbender instead)..

In terms of healing, AOE felt pretty good and atonement was doing ok healing (wasn't super strong burst but definitely felt more useful than with other builds I tested before), single target and spot healing was a bit weak though. I was also doing decent dps, between 6 to 7k beating the tank by a little bit on bosses.

As for Shadow Covenant I see that it benefits from mastery now.. The healing it does seems quite beefy, sure there's the healing absorption issue but with spamable shield now I can see it being useful maybe (only for dungeons though), not sure it may not but I'll be giving it a fair try tomorrow.

Despite of if Shadow Covenant works or not I still think a talent that allows radiance to put a second stack of atonement on targets (similar to germination) would be much better way to go instead.
I would offer my opinion that lenience feels unsatisfying to play with in the 100 tier. It seems that Power Infusion was removed at a time where it could now be a reasonable pick for a few reasons including:

-Relative decrease in strength of Evangelism for raids (losing Velen's/revival penance and damage pattern changes)
-Removal of Grace for smaller group content
-Relative power increase of Rapture

Having a choice between three differing active abilities would seem more fun to me than having a single passive you just choose and forget.
06/07/2018 06:50 AMPosted by Vîölet
Been playing a Schism/Sins/Solace build on beta for the past couple of days and, despite Sins not working properly, the playstyle is so much more what I expected from Disc than the odd Casti/Contrition playstyle.


Yeah, that's the only thing that's been keeping me interested in Disc. Hopefully it's viable at more difficult levels of content as well. I really don't like the Contrition play style. It just makes it feel like every other healer out there.

06/08/2018 08:30 AMPosted by Crzed
I would offer my opinion that lenience feels unsatisfying to play with in the 100 tier. It seems that Power Infusion was removed at a time where it could now be a reasonable pick for a few reasons including:


That would have been interesting with Schism/Sins/Solace. You'd have a real, genuine DPS-Healer vein going throughout the whole talent tree then. I'd rather see Lenience base and some DPS-talent/proc/whatever put in instead.
06/08/2018 08:30 AMPosted by Crzed
I would offer my opinion that lenience feels unsatisfying to play with in the 100 tier. It seems that Power Infusion was removed at a time where it could now be a reasonable pick for a few reasons including:

-Relative decrease in strength of Evangelism for raids (losing Velen's/revival penance and damage pattern changes)
-Removal of Grace for smaller group content
-Relative power increase of Rapture

Having a choice between three differing active abilities would seem more fun to me than having a single passive you just choose and forget.


Yes!! I love this idea. Power Infusion actually would have a place in Bfa and is much more exciting than lenience. Lenience should be baseline imo, giving us a bit more utility. Can be balanced around if needed.

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