decrease DPS queue time?

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Decreasing the dungeon size from 5 to 4 players would not shorten DPS queue times. In fact it would INCREASE them because you would only need 2 DPS for every 1 tank and 1 healer. If anything increasing the dungeon size could make queue times fast for DPS, but again it depends on how many tanks and healers are in that leveling bracket. Let's say you increase the size from 5 to 7 so two more dps are getting in. Now in the MoP dungeons let's say you have 2 tanks 5 healers and 32 dps queueing. tank 1 gets paired with healer 1 and first 5 dps so now you have 1 tank 4 healers and 27 dps in queue. group two is made from tank 2 healer 2 and dps 6-10 leaving you with 0 tanks 3 healers and 22 dps. now assuming that the group one and two do not reque together and noone else has joined the queue you have 22 dps waiting on 2 tanks to finish their dungeons, say 15 minutes, and this repeats through the remaining 3 healers which would take another 30 minutes and only account for 15 more dps leaving 6 dps in queue. meaning five of them are going to wait 45+ minutes for a group and one unlucky guys waits over an hour. If you only have 2 dps in the dungeon, becuase blizz will not remove a tank or healer role regardless of if the player base feels they should, then you get further and further behind on dps to tank/healer ratio. the best way to reduce dps queue timers is to have more players play tanks and healers, which is not something blizz can really control.
04/03/2018 07:19 PMPosted by Corcarus
04/03/2018 07:17 PMPosted by Masser
So we all know DPS players have to wait a very very long time to get into dungeons. Around levels 20-60 you have to wait at least 15 minutes or so and often more. From 80-90 its almost pointless, getting into a MoP dungeon takes around 25 minutes and usually more. Always when queueing for a Cata dungeon it takes so long it wouldnt even give you an estimated time.

What can they do? A suggestion: combine the queue for Pandaria and Cataclysm. Why not? It takes way too long with them separate and it's sad because I think they are among the cooler dungeons in the game.

Also: perhaps consider making them 4 man dungeons instead of 5 man? Sounds crazy probably but they could decrease mob health a bit and I think it would also make for a cool dynamic


Not an issue they can fix, and the direction they gone is the opposite of what you are asking. Maybe if DPS listened too and acted more respectfully toward tanks and healers, more of us would be willing to queue up for random dungeons. That honestly is the only way you'll start seeing shorter queue times, especially with the changes to leveling.


it not always the dps fault I been in groups where it the healer fault and tank or one of them. Majority of the time it usually the tank and healers fault.
The whole leveling experience is garbage because they want you to buy boosts.
04/05/2018 08:13 AMPosted by Drewjr
04/03/2018 07:19 PMPosted by Corcarus
...

Not an issue they can fix, and the direction they gone is the opposite of what you are asking. Maybe if DPS listened too and acted more respectfully toward tanks and healers, more of us would be willing to queue up for random dungeons. That honestly is the only way you'll start seeing shorter queue times, especially with the changes to leveling.


it not always the dps fault I been in groups where it the healer fault and tank or one of them. Majority of the time it usually the tank and healers fault.


And you sir, are why I don't queue heals as a low level.
Add more perks for healers and tanks would be the best way probably. Healing is hard and you also take abuse constantly. Tanking requires you to know every encounter and people will complain about any mistake. For me to want to do that, I'd need a little bit more of a reward. To prevent abuse of that though, they'd need to take care of people queueing as Healer/Tank in DPS spec.

I really like the idea of the Proving Grounds and think with some changes it could be more of a tool for learning how to play in groups as well. Think practice for CC use, burst heals, tanking burst damage, etc.

Another idea: more classes with a tank spec, healing spec. A ranged tank?! It would be pretty weird
Correct me if im wrong, but didnt in need roles get an exp chunk for jumping in a long time ago? Wasnt it nerfed because of babies?
From what I've seen tanks (barring the super experienced) are getting steam rolled. You have an experienced healer, then its manageable, but if both are inexperienced then its wipe city.

About level 45+ on instances is where things seem to get dicey.

If they graphed out tank health just from the runs I've seen it would remind me a lot of an EKG monitor.
Reading through this, the thread seems to be leaning towards more rewards for tanking and healing.

Which is a double-edged sword. Initially, you'll get more people in those roles. People you may not wish to have tanking or healing. And the ones that are good, if you give them more experience, will level more quickly and outlevel the dungeons needing help.

There's a lot of us that just prefer to DPS. I healed for 3 or 4 years and I don't really want to do it any more. I'll tank in a pinch, but it requires more focus than I usually wish to give to the game at times. DPS in dungeons can be somewhat mindless. And in an adventure game, killing the bad guy is kind of the point to me. So I prefer DPS roles.

There's always a downside to changes like this. The biggest one I can see is people who probably shouldn't be tanking and healing (ie, me) being encouraged to step into those roles and not necessarily providing a good experience for everyone else.

We've all had bad tanks and bad healers and even bad DPS players in our random groups. Do we really want to increase the likelihood of having those?
I've started tanking my new DK in the 60s, but only the BC dungeons - I don't know the wrath dungeons and I hate not being able to efficiently lead the group. There isn't really a way to learn it without going and studying outside the game - and that's the main reason I think tanks are hard to find.

In my brief 5 or so dungeons so far, I got into 2 where the prior tank rage quit or was booted. Since I know the BC dungeons - where the stealthed rogues are, what the best path is, how much I can pull cleanly, where to drag mobs to, etc, they went smooth and we got em done fast. And this is only because I played BC back in the day (I didn't do WotK or Cata or MoP - took a huge break). But the Wrath - or any dungeon I'm not an expert on? Yeah no thanks, just too stressful.

You basically not only have to wait for someone to tank, but someone who already knows the dungeons. I'll do the BC dungeons, then... the Legion ones. Everything else I'm just gonna quest through as a tank.

And it's a catch-22 - I like the challenge of the new system, but because my leveling tanks are now squishy, I am not comfortable doing anything I don't know cold. Also, another catch-22 - I'm also only doing dungeons 60-80 because questing that group is slow and tedious. Questing is spiffy the entire rest of the way.

And Legion dungeons are mostly a joke - you often get a ilevel 900 carrying the group so even tanking is not very stressful. So that's easy, but is it fun? Not really. Still, it does solve the "tank issue" in that there is no reason not to queue it as a tank 100-110.

Frankly, I don't see these problems as fixable, period. I think they should make questing 60-80 take half the time and just live with that as the best method to level up.
04/03/2018 07:49 PMPosted by Bankbaby
Who would want to tank or heal a pug now-a-days? Especially lower level? Everyone is still go go go go go and blame the tank or healer when they wipe as a result. No one gives you time to LEARN to tank or heal either if it's your fist time on the classes. The player base itself is the problem and blizz can't fix that.


Wat? How much time do you need to learn 3 abilities?
04/06/2018 05:42 AMPosted by Fixilocks
I've started tanking my new DK in the 60s, but only the BC dungeons - I don't know the wrath dungeons and I hate not being able to efficiently lead the group. There isn't really a way to learn it without going and studying outside the game - and that's the main reason I think tanks are hard to find.


You dont need to study outside the game, youre doing the easiest content :levelling dungeons. You do it once or twice as dps to learn the pathing, then go as tank and faceroll everything because 90% of bosses in dungeons are tank and spank.

You people make this game way harder than it needs to be for yourselves.
To reduce DPS queue times they'd have to either increase the amount of dps slots per dungeon, or convince people that rolling tanks and healers is more fun.
04/05/2018 08:13 AMPosted by Drewjr
04/03/2018 07:19 PMPosted by Corcarus
...

Not an issue they can fix, and the direction they gone is the opposite of what you are asking. Maybe if DPS listened too and acted more respectfully toward tanks and healers, more of us would be willing to queue up for random dungeons. That honestly is the only way you'll start seeing shorter queue times, especially with the changes to leveling.


it not always the dps fault I been in groups where it the healer fault and tank or one of them. Majority of the time it usually the tank and healers fault.


Statistically speaking that's just not likely.

There are 3 DPS characters and one tank and one healer. DPS stands in bad and ignores mechanics and have the healer fix it...that's a DPS issue.
04/06/2018 05:34 AMPosted by Crepe
The biggest one I can see is people who probably shouldn't be tanking and healing (ie, me) being encouraged to step into those roles and not necessarily providing a good experience for everyone else.


The idea that there are people who shouldn't be tanking or healing for something as trivial as random dungeons in dungeon finders is nonsense. The roles are incredibly easy and can be filled by anyone with only a little experience. That's just one of those excuses that get tossed out there anytime it's pointed out that hybrid DPS could fix their own problem by temporarily swapping specs, as though they have some unfortunate and immutable quality that renders them incapable of doing so.

If you simply don't like it, sure, I can appreciate that, but I refuse to believe that any typical player out there is incapable of learning how to tank or heal LFD dungeons. And if it's simply that you don't like it, then it really comes down to whether you like sitting in queue or tanking/healing more.

04/06/2018 05:18 AMPosted by Logrus
Another idea: more classes with a tank spec, healing spec. A ranged tank?! It would be pretty weird


They've added multiple tank and healing specs, which has apparently had no noticeable impact on the overall balance. It mostly diversifies existing tanks and healers.

With tanking being barely different than DPS other than minding an active mitigation ability, I think it's really at the point where it just has to be accepted that people can't be cajoled into tanking and DPS will just have to put up with being overabundant.
04/06/2018 05:34 AMPosted by Crepe
Reading through this, the thread seems to be leaning towards more rewards for tanking and healing.

Which is a double-edged sword. Initially, you'll get more people in those roles. People you may not wish to have tanking or healing. And the ones that are good, if you give them more experience, will level more quickly and outlevel the dungeons needing help.


With that being said, it's probably about time to go straight for the jugular of this particular debate.

If you want more tanks and healers in your groups?
Then you need to change the culture of the game.

Yes, that's a tall order... and quite frankly, almost impossible.

It's no secret that many tanks (and presumably many healers), particularly of the experienced variety, outright REFUSE to tank for random groups... largely because there seems to be a disproportionate amount of impatient jerks who want a fast and smooth fun, but are unwilling to let the tank set their own pace and be able to adequately control the run (which, by the way, happens to make it faster as well). I can only imagine many players who actually enjoy healing are in a similar boat, they've just grown tired of dealing with these jerks.

This culture in the community, more than anything else, has created a situation where the potential pool of tanks and healers just don't want to do what they enjoy doing because of the people they have to interact with.

They'll only tank or heal for guildies and friends for a reason... at least they're a known measure and can be dealt with if necessary.

04/06/2018 05:34 AMPosted by Crepe
There's always a downside to changes like this. The biggest one I can see is people who probably shouldn't be tanking and healing (ie, me) being encouraged to step into those roles and not necessarily providing a good experience for everyone else.

We've all had bad tanks and bad healers and even bad DPS players in our random groups. Do we really want to increase the likelihood of having those?


It's already too late for that, because this is EXACTLY what has happened.

I've seen too many terrible tanks of the last few years, who don't seem to know (let alone understand) the core concepts of tanking. They just pull like maniacs without keeping things under control, and many of them seem to have the same attitude of the jerks mentioned before; they're quick to blame someone else for the problems the group is having, including the very problems they created.

It's been YEARS since I've a tank (other than myself, I'll usually throw out an "Oops" on a mispull) own up to a mistake they made in a random dungeon.

... but yes, this is again coming down to the culture of the game. It's changed slowly over the years, and it actually RESISTS major changes back in the other direction.

---

Just going back to the "Legacy Dungeon" queue I suggested earlier in this thread... part of the reason for that, as noted by the "throw veteran players into a mentor role" at the end, is to encourage such a cultural change.

I'm quite confident MANY veteran players would be surprised at the difficulty spike which was thrown into the leveling dungeons (and leveling content in general) with the recent scaling patch. A few found out and started sticking to endgame content because Blizz was careful to rock that boat too much... yet. I'm sincerely hoping they don't go overboard with endgame gear-scaling in BfA, just to avoid people stomping down early-expansion content as time goes on.

Anyhow, it would expose them to many new players... and my hope is that it will help many of them out by placing them in the obvious "experienced veteran" position who can at least offer some advice and guidance to new & leveling players, and that they don't treat new players poorly.

There is a chance this could backfire GRANDLY if there are too many "jerk veterans" (and it need not be a majority), as it will result in forcibly driving off new players... but there's probably more nice players out there, and will actually find themselves needing to be helpful to the newbies in the group, which should have a slow but progressive change to the community for the better.

Giving incentives to be a veteran player in learning groups is an unfortunate necessity, at least in this day and age... though I'm reluctant to throw in some sort of evaluation system (perhaps a commendation system like FFXIV) which increases or decreases rewards depending on how the rest of the group feels about the veteran in the group.
04/06/2018 05:18 AMPosted by Logrus

Another idea: more classes with a tank spec, healing spec. A ranged tank?! It would be pretty weird


The issue isn't lack isn't lack of specs that can tank or heal. It is lack of people who want to tank or heal random groups. Adding more specs that can tank/heal will not cause people to want to tank or heal.
04/06/2018 05:51 AMPosted by Katarinakity
04/06/2018 05:42 AMPosted by Fixilocks
I've started tanking my new DK in the 60s, but only the BC dungeons - I don't know the wrath dungeons and I hate not being able to efficiently lead the group. There isn't really a way to learn it without going and studying outside the game - and that's the main reason I think tanks are hard to find.


You dont need to study outside the game, youre doing the easiest content :levelling dungeons. You do it once or twice as dps to learn the pathing, then go as tank and faceroll everything because 90% of bosses in dungeons are tank and spank.

You people make this game way harder than it needs to be for yourselves.


Probably - although its not harder for *me* - I will quest just fine to 110. I'm simply not going to tank a PuG without being an expert on the dungeon. To get me to do that would probably require that my tank not be squishy and that would take the challenge away - unfixable.

But I find tanking a mythic+10 easier than tanking leveling dungeons - healers gotta heal, dps has to do stuff and nobody thinks they need to.

Had a mage chain pulling in a level 20 dungeon and the whole run I was nearly dead (and he was last on the dps chart - trolling much?). He refused to stop saying this content is easy. I *almost* just let the wipes happen, but I couldn't do it - just ran the whole dungeon at like 15% health. (This was on a new bear tank who couldn't heal himself at all - that just felt terrible compared to end game druid tanking).

I did try wailing caverns, but omg I had no idea how to get around. It was a long, dreadful experience that taught me to just not do these dungeons I don't know. And I *should* have known that one, did it back in vanilla... but we spent nearly half the time just walking around trying to figure out where to go.
Thats life. Role a tank or healer if you want faster que. This is a people problem primarily.
04/03/2018 07:17 PMPosted by Masser
So we all know DPS players have to wait a very very long time to get into dungeons. Around levels 20-60 you have to wait at least 15 minutes or so and often more. From 80-90 its almost pointless, getting into a MoP dungeon takes around 25 minutes and usually more. Always when queueing for a Cata dungeon it takes so long it wouldnt even give you an estimated time.

What can they do? A suggestion: combine the queue for Pandaria and Cataclysm. Why not? It takes way too long with them separate and it's sad because I think they are among the cooler dungeons in the game.

Also: perhaps consider making them 4 man dungeons instead of 5 man? Sounds crazy probably but they could decrease mob health a bit and I think it would also make for a cool dynamic


I agree allow us to be able to que both randoms like wrath/bc, mop/cata... why not they have this already for LFR
There was a odd type of dungeon that I always enjoyed from Everquest. They basicly built a few 100 hallway types and had the computer randomly put them together per lock out. Then randomly fill them with monsters where ever it wanted and randomly chose from a chart what bosses to put in.

What happened because of this is the group took their time. They where lost half the time, the pulls where evil and required skill and cc's. No one was there for a fast blitz thru. I kind of miss that and wish WoW would adopt the style for the new mythic dungeon standard.(instead of just giving the reg dungens super power and a timer) Timed dungeons have hurt us greatly and need to be phased out. This is a game it should be a time sink not a frantic mess.

That and I think upping the number of DPS per group by 1 making it a 6 man group system would help to vastly down Que times. Give the tanks/healers the skills they need to handle it.

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