You Have No Right To Steal Loot

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That is a part of the reason I got sick of guild raiding. Seemed like it was always the same people getting loot because of all the goofy player made loot systems. Most of the loot I ever got was because nobody would bid against me on it because nobody wanted it.

I feel like it don't matter how long you have been in the guild if you down a boss in a group you should be just as eligible for loot as anyone else. Was always especially annoying when people would get loot because it was a minor upgrade when others would have been a huge upgrade.
04/27/2018 08:25 AMPosted by Jharax

There are many guilds today that raid with personal loot and it works for them, and that's great. The option is already there, you can use it.


You know, I see people say this but I wonder if it is true and how to find them.

I scoured the LFG Forum to find a heroic only group and was never told the loot policy (which was Loot Council). After two weeks of not even being allowed to roll on tier pieces, I had enough and wanted to find something else.

Eventually I did a friendship birb run to get my AOTC and turns out that that group has lots of groups. I applied to one and was told that I had to get my i-lvl up but they also do normal and heroic "community" runs where the only requirement is 920 for normal and 930 for heroic.

So I've been running with them. But I think that is my ONLY raiding option unless I was willing to server transfer, which I am not.

So these mythical raiding opportunities where you can choose what loot system you desire - I don't think that is actually real.
OP, you wrote this:
04/27/2018 08:04 AMPosted by Jalus

No, people have proven they will try as hard as they can to screw others over in every respect in this game, and Blizzard and I and a MASSIVE majority of players are tired of it.


You really should have written this in my personal opinion:

No, people have proven they will try as hard as they can to screw others over in every respect in this game, and Blizzard and I and a MASSIVE majority of players, who are not impacted by this at all, are tired of it.
ITT: People who don't raid high end content thinking they should be able to dictate to others who do how they have to distribute gear based in ignorance.

also

ITT: People who don't bother putting in effort to their guild feeling entitled to equal loot to people who do bother putting in effort into their guild.

That pretty much sums up the two types of people who support this change.
04/27/2018 10:59 AMPosted by Geofferson
04/27/2018 10:47 AMPosted by Jehoma
I'd be willing to bet that the removal of ML is to combat the ever increasing number of support tickets being submitted due to its usage.


I've been playing WoW on and off for 10 years and I'm always in Semi-Hardcore Raid Guilds. In 10 years I have seen maybe two or three complaints about bad Master Looters.

If someone is a Bad Master Looter one of the following things happens.
1) They aren't allowed to Master Loot anymore and they are demoted from Officer
2) The bad Master Looter is the Guild Master and the guild falls apart in a month or two

That's what happens every time.


Exactly. This whole claim that bad evil guilds abusing poor players and taking "their" loot is rife is a gross exaggeration at best, and a paranoid fantasy at worst.
04/27/2018 11:10 AMPosted by Monglo
That is a part of the reason I got sick of guild raiding. Seemed like it was always the same people getting loot because of all the goofy player made loot systems. Most of the loot I ever got was because nobody would bid against me on it because nobody wanted it.

I feel like it don't matter how long you have been in the guild if you down a boss in a group you should be just as eligible for loot as anyone else. Was always especially annoying when people would get loot because it was a minor upgrade when others would have been a huge upgrade.


04/27/2018 11:13 AMPosted by Qualanthar
04/27/2018 08:25 AMPosted by Jharax

There are many guilds today that raid with personal loot and it works for them, and that's great. The option is already there, you can use it.


You know, I see people say this but I wonder if it is true and how to find them.

I scoured the LFG Forum to find a heroic only group and was never told the loot policy (which was Loot Council). After two weeks of not even being allowed to roll on tier pieces, I had enough and wanted to find something else.

Eventually I did a friendship birb run to get my AOTC and turns out that that group has lots of groups. I applied to one and was told that I had to get my i-lvl up but they also do normal and heroic "community" runs where the only requirement is 920 for normal and 930 for heroic.

So I've been running with them. But I think that is my ONLY raiding option unless I was willing to server transfer, which I am not.

So these mythical raiding opportunities where you can choose what loot system you desire - I don't think that is actually real.


In BOTH of your situations; amount of raiding put in DOES NOT equal loot eligibility. If you aren't doing a good job, you shouldn't get loot compared to someone who is doing a good job, and wants the same piece.

This isn't a participation trophy, it's a reward for doing your job. Showing up is not the only requirement to do your job in a raid.
04/27/2018 10:37 AMPosted by Geofferson
Mythic Raid Guilds have the best sense of Community in this game.


That's quite a stretch. Guilds in general are where the communities tend to live.
04/27/2018 11:15 AMPosted by Wraivex
ITT: People who don't raid high end content thinking they should be able to dictate to others who do how they have to distribute gear based in ignorance.

also

ITT: People who don't bother putting in effort to their guild feeling entitled to equal loot to people who do bother putting in effort into their guild.

That pretty much sums up the two types of people who support this change.


I have to wonder how many people who are bitter here were the types who complained every time they wouldn't get loot.
This whole claim that bad evil guilds abusing poor players and taking "their" loot is rife is a gross exaggeration at best, and a paranoid fantasy at worst.
QUOTE

Should have just made Normal Mode Personal Loot.

Its interesting that LFR Heroes and Normal Raider are the ones cheering on the removal of Master Loot.

I haven't seen a single Heroic or Mythic Raider on the forums happy about the Master Loot change.

Mythic Guilds raid to see progression as killing new bosses not loot. I will sit in a raid for 4 hours wiping on the same boss for two weeks with a saved lockout meaning none of the farm bosses are killed.

This means No One gets loot for two or three weeks while we progress on a new boss. Every raid night we have full raids of people wanting to try and kill the hard boss.

If it looks like we need more ranged I will speak up and say "Hey, maybe you should kick me and bring a ranged." Sometimes I'm replaced but usually I'm not.

Mythic Guilds get Raid Loot not Personal Loot because we give the Loot to the people that will help us progress farther.

LFR Hero style loot whoring with Personal Loot is bad for progression.
04/27/2018 11:16 AMPosted by Hemerick
This isn't a participation trophy, it's a reward for doing your job. Showing up is not the only requirement to do your job in a raid.


The "participation trophy" idea is probably the most amazing concept i've heard around this topic.

Its not exactly a participation trophy if you kill a boss, is it? If ML culture is required to be successful, but you pull in a recruit who helps you kill a boss you hadn't killed yet, why would they not get paid? You benefit from their existing experience.
04/27/2018 11:15 AMPosted by Wraivex
ITT: People who don't raid high end content thinking they should be able to dictate to others who do how they have to distribute gear based in ignorance.

also

ITT: People who don't bother putting in effort to their guild feeling entitled to equal loot to people who do bother putting in effort into their guild.

That pretty much sums up the two types of people who support this change.


Exactly.
04/27/2018 11:13 AMPosted by Qualanthar
So these mythical raiding opportunities where you can choose what loot system you desire - I don't think that is actually real.
Can't speak for how common it is as I don't really raid outside of my guild, but we've used Personal Loot all expansion. So we are out there. My guild only goes as high as Heroic though.

That said, I think Master Loot should remain as an option for those who prefer it.
04/27/2018 11:21 AMPosted by Geofferson
I haven't seen a single Heroic or Mythic Raider on the forums happy about the Master Loot change.


Hi.

I'm not cheering for the change but i find the squatting to be silly. ML isn't making or breaking your experience.
04/27/2018 11:16 AMPosted by Hemerick

In BOTH of your situations; amount of raiding put in DOES NOT equal loot eligibility. If you aren't doing a good job, you shouldn't get loot compared to someone who is doing a good job, and wants the same piece.

This isn't a participation trophy, it's a reward for doing your job. Showing up is not the only requirement to do your job in a raid.


Exactly, for Mythic guilds in particular, your performance matters. And this is assuming you were showing up regularly for raid, which may or may not be the case. Someone who flakes on every other raid night, or who doesn't do mechanics, or parses very poorly would be a poorer investment of loot, leaving aside the question of whether or not they deserve the loot.

Edit: I want to say also that leaving ML in for Mythic only would be great. N and H being personal-only would be acceptable to me, personally.
Maybe with PL only Guild's will become more about friendship and liking each other and knowing each others play style.

But if you have a guy you feel is a carry - Guess what you can boot him from the raid.
If he dies early on every pull - Guess what you can boot him from the raid.
If they only show once and a while - Guess what you don't have to invite them.

But from now on, if you invite a person you consent for them to get loot.
(Just like it is now, if you enter the guild you auto consent to their loot rules. Sucks don't it.)
To those saying the anger over removing ML is about the removal of choice, I would posit that the removal of the choice is Blizzard's attempt at better tuning PL.

Think of it this way. If they make changes to PL (or Loot, as it will be called now) but leave ML the way it is then they have to account for both PL OR ML for those raids where ML is available. If only Loot exists then they can essentially tweek the algorithms better (like making sure the Tank roles ALWAYS get at least one piece of loot and maybe 2 healers do or something like that). Maybe the New Loot will even have drop protection built in like I read there was with legendaries in Legion. You didn't get ANY loot this week? Well then chances are good you'll get loot next week, and maybe even multiple pieces. But if ML is still in the equation then Blizz can't necessarily allow drop protection to apply to epics because you could just continue funneling to a few players.

I know the change doesn't affect me at all. I'm not happy to see this happening to Mythic raiders. I'm merely trying to play devil's advocate here.
04/27/2018 11:27 AMPosted by Margirita
Maybe with PL only Guild's will become more about friendship and liking each other and knowing each others play style.

But if you have a guy you feel is a carry - Guess what you can boot him from the raid.
If he dies early on every pull - Guess what you can boot him from the raid.
If they only show once and a while - Guess what you don't have to invite them.

But from now on, if you invite a person you consent for them to get loot.
(Just like it is now, if you enter the guild you auto consent to their loot rules. Sucks don't it.)


youre one of those people that will be the first to !@#$% when someone in the raid gets an item thats BiS for you.. like a trinket.. and its like 8th down the list for them.. but wont hand it over to you.. even though they arnt gunna equip it..

edit- Or youll just leave your guild that youve put alot of effort into.. maybe made flasks for people.. or donated alot of mats for raiding supplies right? but youll just up and leave when johnny nobody who doesnt help the guild at all.. shows up once every two weeks gets the piece youve been wanting for a month or more.. and wont trade it even though he wont be using it cause its not very good for him

Right?
04/27/2018 10:40 AMPosted by Thrasius
04/27/2018 10:32 AMPosted by Odurren
It's plain and blatant selfishness and has no place in a video game, competitive or not.


Personal loot is FAR more selfish than master loot.

Personal loot = I killed the boss, so I get loot.

Master loot = we killed the boss, so we get loot.

If you want personal loot thats fine, but don't act like it's the more noble option lol.


Lol.
That has got to be the best twist I've read yet.
Personal Loot all drops for the group as a whole, it's just spread out among others to determine its fate.
If the loot can be traded, and that person didn't want it then they make the choice.

You cannot call a system that has no bias selfish.

The real elephant in the room is one that isn't being discussed.
Its not about choice, as that is still present.
Is just changed hands.

The elephant in the room is the loss of power and control over another group of people.
That's what is different and changing.
Now the choice of gear is up to the individual, not group opinion.

It is just as I said, change in mindset.
It all depends on the guild, we don't use master loot, we use the personal loot system, and it seems to work out just fine, now that we can trade loot, except if it's highest in a particular slot.

Be awesome if Blizz figured out that higher item level doesn't automatically mean higher value in a particular slot, but that's another story. That's the only real value I can see to master loot if your guild is like mine and puts the value of raid progression for the raid group over personal progression. We all will happily give up an item if it's of higher value to another raider and we don't need master loot to do that.
04/27/2018 11:32 AMPosted by Aeonth
04/27/2018 11:27 AMPosted by Margirita
Maybe with PL only Guild's will become more about friendship and liking each other and knowing each others play style.

But if you have a guy you feel is a carry - Guess what you can boot him from the raid.
If he dies early on every pull - Guess what you can boot him from the raid.
If they only show once and a while - Guess what you don't have to invite them.

But from now on, if you invite a person you consent for them to get loot.
(Just like it is now, if you enter the guild you auto consent to their loot rules. Sucks don't it.)


youre one of those people that will be the first to !@#$% when someone in the raid gets an item thats BiS for you.. like a trinket.. and its like 8th down the list for them.. but wont hand it over to you.. even though they arnt gunna equip it..

edit- Or youll just leave your guild that youve put alot of effort into.. maybe made flasks for people.. or donated alot of mats for raiding supplies right? but youll just up and leave when johnny nobody who doesnt help the guild at all.. shows up once every two weeks gets the piece youve been wanting for a month or more.. and wont trade it even though he wont be using it cause its not very good for him

Right?


Nope not at all, I'm actually seeing things from both sides. I see why there is a hate on ML and trying to make MLers see some of their own bulls&&t. This post may not be a good reflection of my true feelings on this matter however, I grant you that. Try scrolling back and looking at my past posts in this thread.

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