I got screwed out of loot once.

General Discussion
04/27/2018 09:21 AMPosted by Vaniryn
I'm not going through stressful loot situations again, that's not fun for me.


You described stressful loot situations that were only possible because ML exists.

04/27/2018 09:29 AMPosted by Vaniryn
Master Loot was implemented to prevent ninjas


I don't remember master loot ever not existing.
04/27/2018 09:31 AMPosted by Sneakyboops
Master loot also has ninjas, now it's being removed.

Yet you had a choice to avoid Master Loot. You don't have a choice to avoid Personal Loot ninjas.

Huge difference.
04/27/2018 09:29 AMPosted by Vaniryn
Master Loot was implemented to prevent ninjas

Now it's being removed.


Help me understand what you mean by "ninja" in a 'Personal Loot Only' world.

Loot atmosphere has changed significantly since the game launched. Heck, even when I stepped into my first 25-man raids in BC I think I remember Master Looter existing.

With which patch was the Master Looter option introduced? I'm googling around but can't find it.

04/27/2018 09:34 AMPosted by Vaniryn
You don't have a choice to avoid Personal Loot ninjas.


I don't understand this statement. When a player loots a boss, the individual has a 20% chance to receive loot. That loot is the player's. It's not the raid's. If a piece pops out into the player's bags, it defaults to being theirs. It is impossible to ninja something from a group which never belonged to the group in the first place.

04/27/2018 09:26 AMPosted by Starien
Guilds who raid will benefit from making the uncomfortable choice to relinquish control over the raid's loot and accept that it is the player's choice as to what they do with it.


This is a tide change that players will need to accept. Guilds who deny this change are going to have a hard time, unless 100% of their raiders are on board with it.

Most folk I know who pick up a sidegrade will offer it up to others rather than selfishly keep it. Raid with people who want to help each other.
I've been in a few raiding guilds over the years. The one thing they all had in common was that there were rules for loot distribution based on rewarding people for their attendance, performance, and other contributions to the raid group.

I recall one instance of drama over loot. And it was caused by the guy who rarely showed up, and when he did he was never on time or prepared, who decided he deserved the BIS weapon that was given to another raider with perfect attendance, excellent performance and did tons of farming to make flasks for the guild.

ML being removed is going to happen. Whatever. I'm over asking for it to stay, Blizzard doesn't care.

ML was not horrible system; it was as good or bad as the group using it. Period.
04/27/2018 09:31 AMPosted by Sneakyboops
04/27/2018 09:29 AMPosted by Vaniryn
...
Master Loot was implemented to prevent ninjas

Now it's being removed.


Master loot also has ninjas, now it's being removed.

Ninja looting died when guild requirements were added for ML.
04/27/2018 09:34 AMPosted by Starien
Help me understand what you mean by "ninja" in a 'Personal Loot Only' world.

trial comes into raid

trial gets piece of gear

trial leaves raid

ninja'd
04/27/2018 09:21 AMPosted by Woopee
04/27/2018 09:17 AMPosted by Shudder
I don't care for ML because it just slows everything down trying to distribute whatever loot dropped.

Ideally, the ML stays while the rest of the raid moves on and loot gets handed out while clearing trash.


Ideally sure, but how often is that not the case? People interested in loot stay behind because let's face it - you want to be paying attention when a loot roll is called.

Also, sometimes the loot master is a tank and sometimes that just doesn't help keep things moving along.

I prefer personal loot for its ease, its hands off approach, and its emphasis on the individual deciding what they do with their loot and not the group.

It minimizes loot distribution downtime, minimizes loot squabbling, and ensures folks can't get taken advantage of by less than benevolent loot masters.
Help me understand what you mean by "ninja" in a 'Personal Loot Only' world.

I get a Personal Loot drop that is an upgrade for you but a Downgrade for me.
Instead of giving it to you, I DE it.

I know its already happening with Personal Loot in LFR and 5mans because I do it all the time.
04/27/2018 09:36 AMPosted by Vaniryn
Help me understand what you mean by "ninja" in a 'Personal Loot Only' world.

trial comes into raid

trial gets piece of gear

trial leaves raid

ninja'd


Trial had a 20% chance of picking loot up from the boss whether they were with your guild or with another guild when the boss died. Them looting that gear did not take a piece away from any of your other raiders.

Arguing this is like arguing that a player bonus rolling a piece of loot prevented another player from getting it. The only difference between personal loot and bonus rolled loot is that a player cannot choose to trade a personal looted item to another person in the raid.
04/27/2018 09:40 AMPosted by Geofferson
I get a Personal Loot drop that is an upgrade for you but a Downgrade for me.
Instead of giving it to you, I DE it.


Good for you. It's your loot. You do whatever you want with it. You will not be part of my raid team, however.

Sharding personal loot without regard to other players in a randomly-formed raid or dungeon is expected behavior to me and I never think anything of it.

However, when you form a tight-knit scheduled raid group as a team, you expect some other social rules, and it's good to make those expectations clear among all raiders so you're going in there with a similar mindset.
04/27/2018 09:40 AMPosted by Starien
Trial had a 20% chance of picking loot up from the boss whether they were with your guild or with another guild when the boss died. Them looting that gear did not take a piece away from any of your other raiders.

Trial had a chance at loot they don't deserve. Trial had a chance at loot that's suppose to be given to the raid, but they stole.

I'm trialing for a guild right now and I know what I could do with that power.

Have you never raided in a guild before? Would you ever give gear to someone you don't know will be a benefit to your guild or not?

04/27/2018 09:40 AMPosted by Starien
Arguing this is like arguing that a player bonus rolling a piece of loot prevented another player from getting it.

Not in the slightest because Bonus rolls aren't meant to be an additional chance at loot to speed up the gearing process, not be the ultimate means.
04/27/2018 09:36 AMPosted by Vaniryn
Help me understand what you mean by "ninja" in a 'Personal Loot Only' world.

trial comes into raid

trial gets piece of gear

trial leaves raid

ninja'd


Only because you have an expectation that the loot is yours to begin with.
Have you never raided in a guild before? Would you ever give gear to someone you don't know will be a benefit to your guild or not?


Yes and yes.
04/27/2018 09:45 AMPosted by Mvura
Only because you have an expectation that the loot is yours to begin with.

It's the guild's loot being stolen by a random. Simple.
My God the casuals are coming out of the woodworks! "who are you to say I don't deserve loot, meinmeinmein"

I'm the one who killed the boss after you died to annihilation/shadow orb/mines/collapsing rift/bombardment/hitting traps/ruiner/alone in the dark/storm of darkness/foe breaker/falling ash
"I don't like how other people are playing the game, please make that impossible."

How does Master Loot existing effect any of you in the slightest? It's an option you don't have to choose.
04/27/2018 09:36 AMPosted by Vaniryn
Help me understand what you mean by "ninja" in a 'Personal Loot Only' world.

trial comes into raid

trial gets piece of gear

trial leaves raid

ninja'd


Sounds like someone ran a raid and decided to change guilds. Not a ninja.
Have you never raided in a guild before? Would you ever give gear to someone you don't know will be a benefit to your guild or not?


I'm the guild master of my guild, who assembles two nights a week, raids heroic max; you can look up my armory profile and logs and see exactly what we do.

"How are guilds going to be handling personal loot once master loot goes away?" is a sentiment that all of my raiders are weighing heavily, and I even have a few raiders who are so jarred by the loss of the ability to master loot that they're questioning whether or not they're going to want to raid at all in BFA.

As I explained before, we need to accept that all individuals who attend a boss kill deserve the loot as much as anyone else, and Blizzard's Hand of RNG will be the deciding factor regarding who gets loot.

It's then up to the individuals who receive the loot to discuss, if it's tradeable, how it can best augment the guild.

Some interesting social topics are going to come up as BFA gets underway and guilds get to deal with this.
04/27/2018 09:36 AMPosted by Vaniryn
Help me understand what you mean by "ninja" in a 'Personal Loot Only' world.

trial comes into raid

trial gets piece of gear

trial leaves raid

ninja'd


This fixes that. PL = no raid loot only player loot. You're for personal loot and you don't even know it.
04/27/2018 10:02 AMPosted by Starien
As I explained before, we need to accept that all individuals who attend a boss kill deserve the loot as much as anyone else

Imagine thinking the way you run your guild is the basis for every guild in the game especially when it's heroic max.

If you think anyone deserves loot, good for you. That's your guild, you run it that way, YOU have that option. But not everyone follows that and as you can see, not everyone wants that.

Your opinion doesn't reflect the entire community. Try to understand that some guilds want Master Loot to ensure more deserving raiders get loot while other guilds, such as yours, don't care who gets what.

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