Do Bad Players Deserve Loot?

General Discussion
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05/01/2018 03:03 PMPosted by Snowslight
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You can't vote kick in anything higher than lfr.


No but you can still tell them to leave, right?

*Btw, I didn't know that so ty.


In mythic you need to have 20 people to drop the correct amount of loot which is believe is 5 pieces? Anything less and you have the chance of it dropping less loot. Sometimes you have to bring in less skilled players due to main raiders having a prior obligation come up.

I'm completely fine with giving them gear that nobody needs off of farm. However when people still need gear off of bosses like aggramar/argus. I prefer them to go to main raiders who are there every week.
@Jimmie, ty for that explanation. I've only raided once in a group and didn't care for it so I didn't know. Now I do.

I still think that they should get loot if they participated and they should have the option of whether they want to keep it or not.
That seems more fair and practical to me.
Long time raiders who are invested and devoted to the group should also get something too, though since the loot is dependent on RNG if I understand this correctly so even if there's already something implemented, like those loot chests, then perhaps Blizzard could create a guild-type benefit/perk meant for raiders specifically that the guild GM's/raid leaders could manage?

I didn't read this whole thread so Idk if someone mentioned that already.
05/01/2018 12:46 PMPosted by Margirita
If they AFK, die intentionally, auto attack or underperform the YES they deserve to get loot ON that ONE BOSS you allowed that for. If you keep them for the rest of the bosses that's on YOU not them.


This is patently ridiculous to say. I'm not gonna argue about the amount of dps/healing/whatever someone needs to do to qualify as a participant but you're basically saying that just being present in the room for a boss kill entitles someone to loot in the same way as the people who killed the boss.

If invite someone to my group and they decide to troll us by ninja pulling the boss and then hearthing ... and we somehow manage to kill the boss anyway ... that person absolutely doesn't deserve loot but with PL they can do that and then if they're lucky they might even get an item in the mail.

How is that fair?

I can sympathize with a lot of your opinions on this loot debate but this one I competely disagree with.
05/01/2018 01:43 PMPosted by Flug
The only arguments you ever see against PL are about loot entitlement.

People's personal feelings dictating where loot should go and who it should go to because of [insert justification here].

Blizzard obviously wants people's personal feelings to not be involved in loot.

Personal loot does not have a bias or feelings. When a boss dies it does a behind the scenes roll to see whether or not you get loot.

I have yet to seen any good arguments against it that don't involve the very thing Blizzard wants to remove: loot entitlement


For dumb toxic guilds sure. But for teams like mine we check personal feelings at the door. If someone is consistently not doing well via parses or dying several times to mechanics, then the priority level of giving that person a piece of gear drops under the rest of the team.

PL won't fix bad performance
05/01/2018 03:32 PMPosted by Snowslight
Long time raiders who are invested and devoted to the group should also get something too, though since the loot is dependent on RNG if I understand this correctly so even if there's already something implemented, like those loot chests, then perhaps Blizzard could create a guild-type benefit/perk meant for raiders specifically that the guild GM's/raid leaders could manage?


Guild perks have been heavily nerfed since they were first added because people complained they made having a guild mandatory. It's exceedingly unlikely Blizzard would add a new one that's significant enough to be worth managing.
05/01/2018 03:36 PMPosted by Jalen
05/01/2018 01:43 PMPosted by Flug
The only arguments you ever see against PL are about loot entitlement.

People's personal feelings dictating where loot should go and who it should go to because of [insert justification here].

Blizzard obviously wants people's personal feelings to not be involved in loot.

Personal loot does not have a bias or feelings. When a boss dies it does a behind the scenes roll to see whether or not you get loot.

I have yet to seen any good arguments against it that don't involve the very thing Blizzard wants to remove: loot entitlement


For dumb toxic guilds sure. But for teams like mine we check personal feelings at the door. If someone is consistently not doing well via parses or dying several times to mechanics, then the priority level of giving that person a piece of gear drops under the rest of the team.

PL won't fix bad performance


That's still your personal feelings.

You feel loot should go to certain people over others for whatever reason be it performance or progression.

Like I said, Blizzard wants to remove personal feelings out of loot distribution.

If someone's performance isn't up to snuff the stop inviting them to the raid?
05/01/2018 03:42 PMPosted by Flug
That's still your personal feelings.


At that point any preference regarding loot distribution is a "personal feeling" and should be dismissed just as hastily as you dismissed the arguments in favor of ML, rendering the entire conversation moot.
05/01/2018 03:47 PMPosted by Nixxea
05/01/2018 03:42 PMPosted by Flug
That's still your personal feelings.


At that point any preference regarding loot distribution is a "personal feeling" and should be dismissed just as hastily as you dismissed the arguments in favor of ML, rendering the entire conversation moot.


You are missing the whole crux of the argument.

Like I said, Blizzard wants to remove personal feelings out of loot distribution.


Master Looting involves player feelings in making a decision as to where loot goes.

Personal loot has 0 feelings or bias, it checks behind the scenes to see of you get loot or you don't.

Blizzard sees the latter as being better for the game hence the decision they made.
Only people mad are the ones who know thier little greedy hands and minds won’t have any power over the balance of fair raiding.

Lel ya scams up loot council ML bs. You just got kicked off ya pedestal you’ve placed yourselves on haha.

Durrrp
All players who participate in any way deserve loot.
05/01/2018 03:50 PMPosted by Vapemage
Only people mad are the ones who know thier little greedy hands and minds won’t have any power over the balance of fair raiding.

Lel ya scams up loot council ML bs. You just got kicked off ya pedestal you’ve placed yourselves on haha.

Durrrp


Very Well Put!

Loot Councils are corrupt and are an evil thing.
04/30/2018 08:50 PMPosted by Seavoid
Do bad players and trials deserve loot?


Yes that way they can get better and stop being bad.
You are missing the whole crux of the argument.

Master Looting involves player feelings in making a decision as to where loot goes.

Personal loot has 0 feelings or bias, it checks behind the scenes to see of you get loot or you don't.

Blizzard sees the latter as being better for the game hence the decision they made.


What you mean to say is that Blizzard feels the latter is better for the game and is simply making the all too human decision for us, rather than leaving it up to individuals.
05/01/2018 03:51 PMPosted by Irisheyes
All players who participate in any way deserve loot.


Yes!

This is a Fact and I do on this issue agree with Ion.
05/01/2018 03:53 PMPosted by Nixxea
You are missing the whole crux of the argument.

Master Looting involves player feelings in making a decision as to where loot goes.

Personal loot has 0 feelings or bias, it checks behind the scenes to see of you get loot or you don't.

Blizzard sees the latter as being better for the game hence the decision they made.


What you mean to say is that Blizzard feels the latter is better for the game and is simply making the all too human decision for us, rather than leaving it up to individuals.


Absolutely, but video game design is not democracy.

Blizzard has access to metrics and I'm sure they are well aware of tickets or grievances players have with master looting, that we as players do not.

So yes it is the game designers coming together as a committee and feeling that removal of players interfering in another players loot (for whatever reason you feel, positive or negative) is in the best interest of this games long-term health.

I agree with them and haven't seen any arguments that have swayed my opinion, but then again it's blizzard that needs to be swayed, not me.

The arguments against it basically boil down to slowing down progression, or no longer being able to punish players by withholding loot against them, or not being able to give it someone who you feel deserves it more.

All those I stated above are the reasons Blizzard is removing it.
05/01/2018 03:57 PMPosted by Flug
The arguments against it basically boil down to slowing down progression, or no longer being able to punish players by withholding loot against them, or not being able to give it someone who you feel deserves it more.


And the arguments in favor of PL are all about people's negative feelings about being on the receiving end of that situation. Since you missed my point earlier, let me spell it out for you: If you wish to reduce all preferences regarding loot distribution to "feelings," that's fine, but then they are not inherently invalid considerations and you are wrong and biased to dismiss them out of hand when they don't agree with your preference.
05/01/2018 04:07 PMPosted by Nixxea
05/01/2018 03:57 PMPosted by Flug
or no longer being able to punish players by withholding loot against them, or not being able to give it someone who you feel deserves it more.


And the arguments in favor of PL are all about people's negative feelings about being on the receiving end of that situation. Since you missed my point earlier, let me spell it out for you: If you wish to reduce all preferences regarding loot distribution to "feelings," that's fine, but then they are not inherently invalid considerations and you are wrong and biased to dismiss them out of hand when they don't agree with your preference.


My preference is irrelevant.

Master looting involves a third party with feelings and bias distributing loot.

Personal loot has no feelings or bias when it distributes loot. It's between the game and the player themselves.

Blizzard does not want a third party in between a player and their potential shot at loot.

If you're trying to say I have feelings and bias then of course I do! I'm human, and that's exactly why Blizzard wants to automate loot.
05/01/2018 04:11 PMPosted by Flug
Master looting involves a third party with feelings and bias distributing loot.


Blizzard has simply assumed the role of the master looter and chosen to dish out all of the gear by rolling a d20 to see who gets it. While it may be more consistent, it's not less biased, arbitrary, or feelings driven, which is what you don't seem to get. Moving the bias one step back does not eliminate it.
05/01/2018 03:52 PMPosted by Rastlin
Loot Councils are corrupt and are an evil thing.


Only the bad ones. Not all of them are.
05/01/2018 02:48 PMPosted by Flug

Uh what you just typed has everything to do with loot entitlement.

You created an out of game system that would award "effort points" to show you who is more entitled to gear. The inverse is those players who had less points were punished because another player made the decision to award the loot elsewhere.

That's exactly what Blizzard wants to do away with.

I'm sorry your guild had attendance issues and you relied on gatekeeping players access to loot just to keep attendance up, but Blizzard obviously does not want players to control whether or not other players get an equal shot at loot when they both participate in an encounter.

Participation is a relative term but it has nothing to do with the way PL is distributed.

All a raider has to do is merely exist during the kill and they have the same chance of loot as anyone else.

They don't have to DPS.
They don't have to do mechanics.
They just have to be in the raid group.

The natural solution is "well, if someone isn't pulling their weight during the boss, then don't invite them or gkick them."

Good in theory, but that doesn't solve the problem outlined above. They were still present for the kill and could have died early, failed mechanics, or even purposely tried to wipe the raid during the encounter and they would still be entitled to the same loot as everyone else that had to put in more effort to make up for them. Ion said "participate" as if everyone who does so, participates equally and on a base level when in fact, that couldn't be further from the truth.

You say the word entitled as if it's a one way street. PL supporters feel just as entitled to loot as everyone else. That is why our guild has created a system that has just flat out worked and brought us success for the last three years. We may be a Heroic only guild but that has never stopped us from AOTCing every raid since WoD.

Again, my argument isn't about entitlement or unfairness. It is and always has been about choice. Blizzard's attempt to remove a human element to an already imperfect (and frankly, never will be perfect) system will hurt them in the long run. I promise you that. People will just find something else to complain about, even with PL's completely unbiased potential of loot distribution and will flock to these forums to whine and complain about it being unfair in another way.

Instead of that happening, let the guilds that wish to use the current system do so and everyone else can do their own thing. We have a choice to operate our guild the way we want and you have a choice whether to stay or leave.

It's that simple.

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