Survival Hunter AOE

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Right now when you look at every DPS they all have good AOE options except one spec. Survival has only one AOE baseline attack on a 15 second cooldown, being Wildfire Bomb (WFB). Due to the way the cone mechanics work and AI for enemy movement, getting good results for AOE damage from WFB is tedius at best and near impossible at worst. No other DPS has to deal with this complicated positioning, potentially even putting them in a bosses cleave or other bad spots during play. Wildfire Bomb needs to be simplified to just do damage to any enemy within 8 yards of the primary target. Otherwise it may not even be considered true AOE.

Now to fill out Survival’s AOE abilities we have to select a talent on the level 30 row. None of the choices really fill out a decent AOE arsenal.

Guerrilla Tactics offers almost nothing in terms of AOE. First it suffers from the terrible cone AOE mentioned above. It could increase the damage of WFB. It could change the cone to a radius (but that should be baseline as described above). An extra charge alone is worthless with the current WFB design.

Hydra’s Bite has potential, but without some smart targeting to spread DOTs it is heavily RNG reliant. It should just hit every target within a radius of the primary. It also is largely a waste of focus to reapply a Serpent Sting DOT before you get in pandemic range.

Butchery is really the only AOE talent that offers damage in control of the player. The downside is with a 15 second cooldown that leaves a lot of time between AOE attacks to be stuck in a single rotation.

I think it would be very good for the spec to get Carve back. Survival will need a spammable AOE attack that does low to moderate damage to fill the gaps in rotation left by the talents above. Otherwise it will be a lower demand spec for content that requires constant AOE like mythic +.
Leveling and playing as SV felt great, and its Cleave is amazing with Hydra's Bite. But we do really lack AoE in any form. If WFB hit in a radius and did more dmg, it would be an ok form of sustained AoE, but as the op stated, it is hard to use it effectively. I also think butchery need to have the old artifact trait built in to it, to make it hit harder the more mobs it hits. It was a nice little niche that SV had in legion, and would be nice to have a good burst aoe talent.
05/01/2018 11:07 AMPosted by Cxf
Leveling and playing as SV felt great, and its Cleave is amazing with Hydra's Bite.

Hydra’s Bite can be good especially with Viper’s Venom. The problem is if you have say five targets and use Serpent Sting several times there is a chance two of the five never get a SS DOT. That chance decreases as you use more SS, but that will also be a big DPS impact as you’re spending focus and GCDs for that. If AOE never exceeded three targets HB would be great all the time.
05/01/2018 11:34 AMPosted by Emrill
Hydra’s Bite can be good especially with Viper’s Venom. The problem is if you have say five targets and use Serpent Sting several times there is a chance two of the five never get a SS DOT. That chance decreases as you use more SS, but that will also be a big DPS impact as you’re spending focus and GCDs for that. If AOE never exceeded three targets HB would be great all the time.

It's worse than that, in my testing; if you're firing into 5 enemies with HB, it isn't a chance two of the 5 never get hit by serpent sting; if you do not change targets yourself, hydra's bite will always cleave to the same two secondary targets. As far as I can tell, HB picks two enemies to cleave to (based on proximity to the primary target, maybe?) and then always cleaves to those two whenever you fire at that target; even if you've been tabbing around the dot to hit others, when you go back to shooting at that specific target, it fires at the same secondaries as the first time.
Dang. That sounds borderline bug if not actually one. If you have to tab target to get Hydra's Bite to spread, that pretty much negates the usefulness of the talent.
Unchanged in today's build.
Honestly, just adding in Carve, with a built in version of Hellcarver, would solve our AoE problems.

Give us a spammable AoE to dump Focus into, Butchery can replace it, Carve can be made to spread Shrapnel Bomb's bleed...

There's no bad result comin' out of this.
Woah someone actually who knows what they're talking about when discussing SV? I'm shook.

Did you know that if a DK uses Gorefiend's and you target something in the cluster with WFB the cone doesn't hit anybody?

Our AoE is a bit pathetic. It'd be *miles* better if WFB was an AoE around the target like DFG. Or if we had carve. Or if HB was smart.
05/01/2018 10:12 PMPosted by Zhuliu
Our AoE is a bit pathetic. It'd be *miles* better if WFB was an AoE around the target like DFG. Or if we had carve. Or if HB was smart.

I do think the cone effect is thematically cool, but an 8-12 yard circle would help QoL immensely.
i know this is a "fantasy" game, but i cant seem to wrap my head around how a directional cone explosion comes from a spherical bomb. If we were throwing a claymore mine, i guess... This hurts my head even more than legion's pocket snake friend for a class who's abilities are all named after things that hunt and kill snakes.

wildfire bomb's cone explosion not only makes no sense to me, but greatly diminishes the enjoyment i have for a spec i've played since its conception through pvp/cutting edge raiding/high m+

if you change nothing/anything about BFA SV's aoe situation, at least make the bomb a bomb with a radius around its explosion like a bomb should be (or rename it some silly cocktail/claymore)
05/01/2018 11:55 PMPosted by Dozerzz
but i cant seem to wrap my head around how a directional cone explosion comes from a spherical bomb.
In terms of the ingredients being liquid of nature (similar from Game of Thrones), once the container hit's the target, the liquid has some further travel as it dissipates into the flames.

Think of it like a water bomb.

Fantasy aside, I simply detest this mechanic from a mechanical standpoint as it's far to easy to completely miss other targets in a group, and would very much like to see a circular AoE effect instead. While we're discussing WtB, I'd suggest Guerrilla Tactics to incorporate a hefty CD reduction instead of a largely useless 2 charge system if used rotationally.

Hyra's Bite should affect two additional enemies with a preference of those who do not have the dot. This needs to happen!

Butchery may need it's CD brought down a notch for consistent AoE. If the 3 talents were adjusted as such to be effective as the spec's singular AoE options (which would be amazing!), there'd be no reason to incorporate Carve...

But they're not...

Emrill, you mostly have good thoughts in regards to gameplay, and I very much agree with you here.
I agree with the OP. I tried using WFB while leveling in the alpha. I don't think I ever got it to hit more than one target. I don't understand how this is supposed to be the spec's aoe when it doesn't hit multiple targets and it's on such a long cd.
Maybe survival is not supposed to be an aoe-centric spec? They've already stated they are moving away from specs being able to do everything, so I see this as an extension of that.

That isn't to say survival **can't** AOE - it has options, they're just more limited than say, an elemental shaman or outlaw rogue.
05/02/2018 01:18 AMPosted by Rockford

Butchery may need it's CD brought down a notch for consistent AoE.


I love this! I do actually love most of the changes to SV and I will main it it BFA. I love not having to spam Moongoose and heck didn’t even choose it.
I’m disappointed with Wildfire as I have to run around mobs to make sure they are in. Line and I’m hitting the first one.
Then I try to use butchery sparingly otherwise you stand around spamming raptor bite while waiting.
05/02/2018 05:12 AMPosted by Vertigo
Maybe survival is not supposed to be an aoe-centric spec? They've already stated they are moving away from specs being able to do everything, so I see this as an extension of that.

That isn't to say survival **can't** AOE - it has options, they're just more limited than say, an elemental shaman or outlaw rogue.


The problem with this, is you can't have 1 spec like that. SV is the only spec in the game that does not have a valid burst aoe or sustained aoe option.
05/02/2018 09:12 AMPosted by Cxf
05/02/2018 05:12 AMPosted by Vertigo
Maybe survival is not supposed to be an aoe-centric spec? They've already stated they are moving away from specs being able to do everything, so I see this as an extension of that.

That isn't to say survival **can't** AOE - it has options, they're just more limited than say, an elemental shaman or outlaw rogue.


The problem with this, is you can't have 1 spec like that. SV is the only spec in the game that does not have a valid burst aoe or sustained aoe option.


Butchery is not burst AoE?
05/02/2018 09:16 AMPosted by Vertigo
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The problem with this, is you can't have 1 spec like that. SV is the only spec in the game that does not have a valid burst aoe or sustained aoe option.


Butchery is not burst AoE?


In its current form, no it is not.

On BFA right now, butchery does 174.096% attack power if you burn all 3 charges, and then would have a 45 second cd.

In comparison, Arms warriors would do 130.5% attack power with 3 WWs, but do not have a charge system on it.
First, I’m glad to see this discussion gaining some traction. The spec really will suffer if it goes live with the AOE like it is.
05/01/2018 11:37 PMPosted by Rokugan
I do think the cone effect is thematically cool, but an 8-12 yard circle would help QoL immensely.

Thematically cool is one thing, but when it doesn’t function in game then theme needs to take a backseat to practicality.

Hydra's Bite should affect two additional enemies with a preference of those who do not have the dot. This needs to happen!

I think the simpler solution would be just say Hydra’s Bite does a 5-8 yd AOE. Make the talent essentially l convert Serpent Sting to a poison gas attack. Also thank you for the compliment.

@Cfx and Vertigo... no need to get hung up on personal interpretations. Butchery can be burst AOE, but to use it as burst you give up sustained AOE.
First, I’m glad to see this discussion gaining some traction. The spec really will suffer if it goes live with the AOE like it is.
05/01/2018 11:37 PMPosted by Rokugan
I do think the cone effect is thematically cool, but an 8-12 yard circle would help QoL immensely.

Thematically cool is one thing, but when it doesn’t function in game then theme needs to take a backseat to practicality.

Hydra's Bite should affect two additional enemies with a preference of those who do not have the dot. This needs to happen!

I think the simpler solution would be just say Hydra’s Bite does a 5-8 yd AOE. Make the talent essentially l convert Serpent Sting to a poison gas attack. Also thank you for the compliment.

@Cfx and Vertigo... no need to get hung up on personal interpretations. Butchery can be burst AOE, but to use it as burst you give up sustained AOE.


I'm not getting hung up on interpretation. There is no burst when it comes to butchery atm. It is sustain aoe dmg on a burst aoe cd. if it had the artifact talents built in that upped the dmg per enemy hit, then it would be considered burst, or if they up the dmg substantially. Then it will be burst aoe, until then it is not.
05/02/2018 12:15 PMPosted by Cxf
I'm not getting hung up on interpretation. There is no burst when it comes to butchery atm. It is sustain aoe dmg on a burst aoe cd. if it had the artifact talents built in that upped the dmg per enemy hit, then it would be considered burst, or if they up the dmg substantially. Then it will be burst aoe, until then it is not.

You kind of are or you wouldn’t be so argumentative about it. I’m trying to avoid getting hung up on numbers and instead trying to focus on the fact Survival has no real sustained AOE.

How Butchery is used is of little relevance. You either fire off three and wait 45 seconds (which for all intents and purposes is burst AOE on a cooldown) or you stagger charges out and use one every 15 seconds which is a short cooldown AOE attack in the same category as Wildfire Bomb. There is no sustained AOE with Butchery.

With Guerrilla Tactics you can burst out two WFB and then you’re basically in the same boat as not having picked a talent at all.

Hydra’s Bite is the only talent with potential sustained AOE, but as Arctos pointed out it’s bugged and doesn’t correctly spread the DOT.

The situation needs to be fixed. The simplest fix is give Survival the Carve attack back. Have it cost 40 focus and hit every target in the players front arc within 5-8 yards. Then SV has a sustained AOE source of damage that is limited by focus generation.

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