Brewmasters & Quality of Life

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
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06/08/2018 11:53 PMPosted by Bruzes
So the guard talent is a great idea, but it prob wont be taken any time soon unless in very specific situations. Reason being is that the interaction of BoC with Keg smash with the increased reduction to CD of Brews is too valuable to let go. Fort Brew CD would suffer greatly if people didn't take this talent and for anything competitive I don't see the new Guard talent out performing the BoC interaction with Brews. Brews are life, and not life is not good.

On live, every BoC interaction except for BoS+TP and BoS+ISB is a trap---including BoS+KS. There could be an argument for BoS+KS if beta went live as-is, but with the stated ISB changes it is right back in trap status.
... if BoB in any form in still there then again Spitfire will fall behind because Brews are life, and not life is not good.

Sad but likely true.
06/09/2018 04:52 AMPosted by Plyte
The more I think about it, the more I do not like Guard as a mechanic.

First, if Guard is a flat amount and doesn't scale with incoming damage, then its going to have a point it gets outscaled in high damage situations. Consider using BoC for brew generation vs. guard. Guard is a flat amount every 30 seconds. Assuming around 20% haste (round up to 7 second Keg smash CD for simplicity), Over 30 seconds BoC is generating roughly 8 seconds of reduced CD on brew and allows you to maintain 100% uptime on Breath of Fire (provides 5% damage reduction, generates orbs with azerite armor. You'll also smack more damage out of a couple tiger's palms in the process. Also its knocking time off BoB and Fort brew coming back up.

FWIW: on beta High Tolerance is actually more DPS than empowering every TP with BoC. The loss of FP really hurts the damage of BoC.
06/09/2018 04:52 AMPosted by Plyte
Depending on how much faster brews generate, Guard is going to have to be better than using 1 purifying brew to justify itself. I know on live stagger damage is rarely the threat; bosses with tank swap mechanics typically have shorter windows, under 20 seconds or so, so letting stagger damage fall off instead of purifying isnt a big deal. Being at 200% stagger on live is dangerous, but a single purifying takes most of that edge off, and you're actually pretty safe. How much will Guard have to do to?

I don't see guard ever preventing more than 50% of your max HP in stagger damage. I dunno, it just seems too niche.

I'm tired and my thoughts are a bit jumbled, but I'm not quite sure what they're shooting for here.

Given the 30s CD i could see them tuning Guard to be quite powerful, especially because it has to compete with HT. Of course, I expect the flat value will scale (directly or indirectly) with our gear. While its likely that it will still get eaten too fast on very high level content, it also means that we will be able to meaningfully mitigate damage on lower-level content---something that we can't do now because we never stagger enough of the low damage to be worth purifying. It'd also be a powerful choice if we ever see another fight like Vari, where we can't be healed immediately after a large hit.
06/09/2018 07:10 AMPosted by Meirá
Yes it will. Guard adds more sustained healing to the BRM monk. 30 sec cd with healing elixirs which is also a 30 sec cd?

Everyone will be taking those 2 talents. BRM's issue is dealing with sustained damage. Take high tolerance when you're on progression.


Healing Elixir also competes with Bob and Weave, which reduces Stagger damage per tick by a decent amount in exchange for having it last three seconds longer. Preventing X amount of damage going into Stagger and having reduced Stagger damage per tick is a pretty potent combination when it comes to damage smoothing. Sure, HE lines up well with Guard, but constantly reducing the damage you take is arguably more valuable than just being able to self heal a chunk of it back every 30 seconds.

Our primary weakness isn't sustained damage in general. It's the amount of incoming damage. Constant, weak hits will eventually kill us because there's not much of anything to Stagger and Gift of the Ox isn't spawning. Constant, heavy hitting attacks instantly cause the value of Stagger to skyrocket and Gift of the Ox will spawn orbs at a decent rate in order to help us stabilize. Brewmaster's primary weakness is a lack of self sustain regardless of damage strength. Against stuff that hits us hard, we're still a little behind the curve compared to other tanks, but we're able to at least stay afloat. When you start tickling us with feathers, we're going to go down because our sustain mechanic won't be kicking in often enough compared to other tanks.

Our primary issue is a problem unique to Legion/BFA brewmasters, and one I wish Blizzard was willing to look at instead of just completely doubling down on what's already there and seemingly brushing the problem off. There are any number of ways to increase our sustain by simply tying existing spells to have a chance at spawning Gift of the Ox, giving us a brew that does it, or even just making Vivify worth stopping to hard cast should we need to.
06/09/2018 06:49 AMPosted by Ginjuice
06/09/2018 06:43 AMPosted by Dèusxmachina
These are some nice changes but I don't get why they don't just uncouple ISB from PB. A few of these changes are aimed at making ISB easier to maintain at 100% of the time. That's great they're making it easier but why not either uncouple the two brews or just bake in ISB into the spec. It isn't fun to be required to get 100% uptime on a buff or you insta die. At this point why not buff our base stagger, make ISB and PB separate charges and make ISB only add like 10% on a longer cd? I don't understand their logic, ISB isn't AM anymore because it has to be up 100% of the time. At 100% of the time it's just core mitigation. PB is our AM and I'm fine with that, reducing the damage we staggered. The new guard would play into that great.


It's because they want to to balance ISB charges with PB charges, but the core mechanic here doesn't make sense because if you aren't taking much damage than you won't have to PB much thus freeing up a lot of charges for ISB, and you'll likely be ISB capped on a fight where you basically don't even need it.

Conversely, if you're taking heavy damage, you'll be needing to PB a lot thus making ISB scarce leaving gaps in your ISB buff window which is exactly what you don't want during high incoming damage.

It's a counter-intuitive mechanic.


That was exactly my point. It's true of every tank that if there is low damage going out you don't need you're core AM as much or not at all. True for every tank except brewmasters. Even at low damage taken our base stagger and mitigation is too low to not have 100% ISB uptime. So again I'll say it, if it's required to have 100% uptime on something to survive, just bake it into the spec. The spec feels so bad to play with it. It's keep ISB up at all times and just do your 3 button rotation. No procs, no interactions. Just a cast sequence macro. There's no skill involved at all.
Various things to expect next build:
Ironskin Brew's duration will come up to 7, also freeing up more Brew charges.


Any thoughts on simply upping Stagger's baseline to what it is currently with ISB active and changing ISB to a short duration Active Mitigation? ISB is a maintenance buff with essentially 100% uptime that leads to no interesting or challenging gameplay decisions (it's either you have ISB up or you're not a viable tank).

In my opinion, something like a shorter cooldown, shorter duration Zen Meditation (that works past one hit) would be a decent rendition, but I am not a developer. I'm just telling you how it feels to play. ISB is just tedious.
I'd say the only crap ability that still remains on the BrM spellbook that really needs to be looked into is Zen Meditation.

I don't mind the long CD, but the fact that it breaks on any melee damage and it requires us to stop attacking and moving during its duration is just bad design for a tanking CD.

The ability itself is just not fun. It could make you immune to 100% of spell damage and still make me dread clicking on it just because of the way it's designed. It could really use a change.
06/08/2018 07:32 PMPosted by Sigma

Gift of the Ox healing increased about 30%. We expect the overall spawn rate to be lower than Legion, and this helps make up for that.

[/quote]

Those orbs already tend to overheal. I’ve found that there have been far more times that I’ve been praying for an orb at all rather than be disappointed by the size of the heal.

I would prefer orbs more often personally
06/09/2018 08:51 AMPosted by Ginjuice
I'd say the only crap ability that still remains on the BrM spellbook that really needs to be looked into is Zen Meditation.

I don't mind the long CD, but the fact that it breaks on any melee damage and it requires us to stop attacking and moving during its duration is just bad design for a tanking CD.

The ability itself is just not fun. It could make you immune to 100% of spell damage and still make me dread clicking on it just because of the way it's designed. It could really use a change.


Would be nice to see Zen Med given the ability to move while using it.

And for the critics of the changes: I can say with certainty that Bliz wants you to try them out before you negatively comment on them.

Glad BrM got some changes!!! That’s awesome.
06/09/2018 08:51 AMPosted by Ginjuice
I'd say the only crap ability that still remains on the BrM spellbook that really needs to be looked into is Zen Meditation.

I don't mind the long CD, but the fact that it breaks on any melee damage and it requires us to stop attacking and moving during its duration is just bad design for a tanking CD.

The ability itself is just not fun. It could make you immune to 100% of spell damage and still make me dread clicking on it just because of the way it's designed. It could really use a change.


It's designed mostly to tank a boss mechanic. Even without the legendary helm, you would use it in Legion on some of the harder hitting boss abilities (Shared Suffering, Dark Slash) and raid mechanics like Odyn's Spear. I like it.

06/09/2018 07:38 AMPosted by Eisenpelz
Given the 30s CD i could see them tuning Guard to be quite powerful, especially because it has to compete with HT.


I'm still confused by what niche or situation Guard is going to help with. Sustained damage, like something you'd press on cooldown in a m+? Is it going to be a buff and if so, how long will the buff last? Is it going to get rid of current Staggered damage or just prevent whatever damage would have been Staggered from being added to your Stagger? Currently it offers no offensive value, while the rest of the talents in that row do - does this mean it's going to be tuned to be the survivability option (and BOC tuned to be the dps option and HT tuned to be a somewhere-in-between)?
And while I’m here, stagger rarely builds up enough to make purify worth pushing. At the same time, while still watching purify be not worth, that is more than enough incoming damage to kill me
In glad to see these changes but the core problems with brm aren't being addressed. If the devs insist on keeping the current ISB design please allow us to stack it higher than 18 seconds(or whatever it currently is). When we used to be able to stack it to longer times that allowed us to use more PB's. If we're required to keep 100% uptime, what does it hurt to allow us to stack it up as far as we can? It just frees up our rotation to use PB as our real AM like it should be.
It’s going to be the only shield-like ability that tanks have that you actually can control - to an extent - by talents and ability usage how % of the income damage you can let it absorb. High skill ceiling.
Ps: skilled BrMs will prolly fine tune its usage based on the healing spec they got in their grp
06/09/2018 09:26 AMPosted by Dèusxmachina
In glad to see these changes but the core problems with brm aren't being addressed. If the devs insist on keeping the current ISB design please allow us to stack it higher than 18 seconds(or whatever it currently is). When we used to be able to stack it to longer times that allowed us to use more PB's. If we're required to keep 100% uptime, what does it hurt to allow us to stack it up as far as we can? It just frees up our rotation to use PB as our real AM like it should be.


ISB, like all other tank active mitigation, has a hard cap duration of 3x the active mitigations time. So with ISB going to 7s, its cap is 21s.
06/09/2018 08:24 AMPosted by Drahkken
Various things to expect next build:
Ironskin Brew's duration will come up to 7, also freeing up more Brew charges.


Any thoughts on simply upping Stagger's baseline to what it is currently with ISB active and changing ISB to a short duration Active Mitigation? ISB is a maintenance buff with essentially 100% uptime that leads to no interesting or challenging gameplay decisions (it's either you have ISB up or you're not a viable tank).

In my opinion, something like a shorter cooldown, shorter duration Zen Meditation (that works past one hit) would be a decent rendition, but I am not a developer. I'm just telling you how it feels to play. ISB is just tedious.


I agree completely with you that baseline Stagger should be increased and have ISB changed to be something more akin to Rune Tap, heck, even make it a talent if you do. Having the spec be focused on when to purify and popping ISB for big hits/burst is far more interesting than what is currently going on with the maintenance buff.

For Zen Med, I actually like it as is. It has it's spot as a niche ability that can give you one of those "Moments of Glory" that Blizzard has gone on about (Like using it on the tree boss' grab in Darkheart, or Garrosh's whirlwind back in SoO).

Please add a passive effect to GotO that spawns an orb at 35%. Even if it is a "lesser" version of the orb it will help as I see it hard to go without.

Will Guard behave/scale like normal absorbs do? Or will it be based on Agi or a % of HP? Will I be able to stack Crit and make it bigger? (I love doing that in Legion with absorb trinkets).

Overall, promising changes so far and I look forward to what comes from testing this.
I do think changing Spitfire a bit could help.

I believe it should either proc another move, or it should also modify how strong said BOF proc is. Perhaps making it more powerful, longer range or some other modifiers.

As it stands I can't really say that BoF showing up more is too valuable, or rather I have a hard time seeing what makes that valuable. It's a fairly weak hitting ability.
It's nice to see changes to come through, and the addition of guard and acknowledgement of Black Ox Brew's strength is definitely something I like to see. Still hoping for some changes to our rotation to not feel static and unrewarding (more on that in an earlier post) and better self sustain (please just ax Celestial Fortune already and give us self healing control).

15 hours ago

Ironskin Brew's duration will come up to 7, also freeing up more Brew charges.


Now this doesn't make sense to me. Ironskin Brew is still not "mitigation", it is a maintenance buff that is quite literally a stronger version of shuffle attached to the charge system. "Also freeing up more brew charges" should say "Also freeing up more purifying brew charges" already implying that one is significantly less important than the other. When two spells share the same charges, it should imply that both are equally powerful and they both should be treated as first class citizens. Currently that treatment has become "Max out and keep up Ironskin, if you have extra use purify", that's a problem.

I would prefer that we pull back on our degree of damage smoothing, if it meant that we could just instant clear stagger again. Base stagger increased, Ironskin duration decreased and no longer extendable past base duration, and purify increased to 100%. I would like to see a situation where the question we ask is: "Does this damage need to be smoothed?" rather than just saying "This damage will be smoothed". That to me would be an engaging active mitigation system around our defining mechanic.
06/08/2018 07:32 PMPosted by Sigma
Various things to expect next build:

New talent: Guard (replacing Elusive Dance on L100). "Guard against future attacks, causing the next X damage you Stagger to instead be prevented." 30s cooldown.
(The Guard Honor Talent will be renamed).

New talent: Spitfire (replacing Gift of the Mists on L45). "Tiger Palm has a 25% chance to reset the cooldown of Breath of Fire."

Part of the value of Black Ox Brew is being moved baseline, by lengthening its cooldown to 2 minutes, and speeding up the baseline recharge time of Brews. This should help the row be more competitive, without losing total Brew charges.

Ironskin Brew's duration will come up to 7, also freeing up more Brew charges.

Blackout Combo no longer buffs Purifying Brew. This usage wound up mostly being a trap, and 4 modes still a good amount of choice for the talent.

Gift of the Ox healing increased about 30%. We expect the overall spawn rate to be lower than Legion, and this helps make up for that.

Balancing is still preliminary, but a few tweaks on that front:
HP reduced for Brewmaster by around 10%. Brewmaster's heavy resistance to killing spikes means they're not a tank that needs as high an HP pool. This does have the side effect of making Ox orbs spawn slightly more often.
Stagger's effectiveness against Magic brought back up to 35%.

These are some good changes! However instead of losing elusive dance. I would rather you bake in blackout combo into the spec and then put this new Talent there. Thank you so much for the blue post also any chance we could get are artifact ability back. AOE kind of feels a little weak right now.
06/08/2018 07:32 PMPosted by Sigma
Various things to expect next build:

New talent: Guard (replacing Elusive Dance on L100). "Guard against future attacks, causing the next X damage you Stagger to instead be prevented." 30s cooldown.
(The Guard Honor Talent will be renamed).

New talent: Spitfire (replacing Gift of the Mists on L45). "Tiger Palm has a 25% chance to reset the cooldown of Breath of Fire."

Part of the value of Black Ox Brew is being moved baseline, by lengthening its cooldown to 2 minutes, and speeding up the baseline recharge time of Brews. This should help the row be more competitive, without losing total Brew charges.

Ironskin Brew's duration will come up to 7, also freeing up more Brew charges.

Blackout Combo no longer buffs Purifying Brew. This usage wound up mostly being a trap, and 4 modes still a good amount of choice for the talent.

Gift of the Ox healing increased about 30%. We expect the overall spawn rate to be lower than Legion, and this helps make up for that.

Balancing is still preliminary, but a few tweaks on that front:
HP reduced for Brewmaster by around 10%. Brewmaster's heavy resistance to killing spikes means they're not a tank that needs as high an HP pool. This does have the side effect of making Ox orbs spawn slightly more often.
Stagger's effectiveness against Magic brought back up to 35%.


Reconsider making Blackout Combo a baseline passive effect and putting Guard there instead, this makes it a choice on level 100 talents.
Also make Summon Black Ox baseline (for the lore/feel/whatever, just because both other specs have a baseline summon) and put Explosive Keg there (or double charge on Keg Smash). Rushing Jade Wind is default for permanent DPS, Special Delivery is (meh) but a but front burst and either of both other Kegs is huge burst with higher CD than Special Delivery.

Spitfire is ... strange. We are missing just a very short period of debuff on Flame Breath, is there really a reason for us to have "bad luck seconds" in which this 5% damage might be a big hit? Its not part of any defense treatment so just remove the damage reduction on it or make it - at least - 100% uptime on a single target.

Gift of the Ox was always unreliable, because your healers never know how many orbs are available and will heal anyway.
06/09/2018 11:14 AMPosted by Mettlebrew

These are some good changes! However instead of losing elusive dance. I would rather you bake in blackout combo into the spec and then put this new Talent there. Thank you so much for the blue post also any chance we could get are artifact ability back. AOE kind of feels a little weak right now.


I agree. The current BrM rotation without BoC is very dull and repetitive.

I'd also accept the new Spitfire as a baked in ability. Having BoF proc randomly gives us something to look forward to in our rotation, sort of like when a Paladin's Avenger Shield procs, or a Warrior's Shield Slam, or a DK's DnD, etc.
Various things to expect next build:
...


Glad to see Black Ox Brew made baseline in this form.
*edit - bleh, misread. BoB will likely still be strongest due to on demand. Doesn't really change much.

Best thing now would be to test these changes and give constructive feedback.
Honestly, I really like these changes. I'm super happy to get Blizz attention.

I would really like, though, if Spitfire was baseline. I know, I know, it sounds ridiculous, but now I'm forced to pick between interactive gameplay and what's actually good. I don't think there's any kind of way that Spitfire beats out Light Brewing and BoB, right?

Also, BoB isn't fully going baseline. It's CD is being increased and Brews are passively going to regenerate faster, making BoB less dominant.

Also, Guard being against HT either makes Guard unpickable (HT and LB have high synergy) or it makes LB unpickable (BoB would beat it out, I think, without the haste from HT, haven't mathed it).

Without talents, Brewmaster still has ZERO interactions within the kit. I think that's still a baseline issue, imho.

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