Guardian Druid Feedback

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Just got the game downloaded since I have crappy internet.

Haven't done much testing yet on Guardian Druid but if anyone has feedback/thoughts on the class feel free to post it here, since I went through 4 pages and didn't see a thread for Guardian Druid Feedback.

The few things I noticed was Lunar Beam is still lackluster compared to Rend and Tear, Ironfur I got 2 stacks ( almost 3 stacks) but it still felt like the duration was too short and the Frenzied Regeneration feels weird now with longer CD and less heal-output.
Yea, there's not really a good case for taking Lunar Beam currently. I think Ironfur is probably fine for where it is currently because how often we can use it is affected by how much rage we build which should increase as the expansion goes on. In other words it might be a bit tight early on but as we get further in it'll be easier and easier to stack to 3.

FR being on the GCD is imo the biggest issue with Guardian right now. The fact it is only a heal and doesn't do damage means it's a 100% reactive ability and those aren't supposed to be on the GCD because it forces the choice of "do I attack or stand here doing nothing because I might need to heal in second" which just feels bad.
I had quite a bit about Lunar Beam to say

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20763266177

Is that in line with your thinking?
The fact that guardian is still so incredibly booooooooooooooooooooooriiiiiiiiiiiiing might be mentioned too. The Legion class design for them is just bad, it feels weightless. They hit like wet noodles and that's only looking to get worse in BFA. There's no feeling of impact and their rotation is just dull. I say this as someone that has mained one since early TBC

They need a rework, bad. It's not just me saying this, anytime tanks come up in conversation it is mentioned that Guardian might be the best one survival wise; but it's also incredibly dull.
Lunar Beam is terrible, and has been terrible pretty much since the expansion launched - at least beyond being useful for questing and low-level content. It's currently continuing to be terrible in BfA because it's horribly undertuned, and because RotS/FoN are leaving. So yes, it needs to be either (a) changed to a % based ability or (b) nuked.

I feel like most of the "boringness" of Guardians on live can be traced back to (a) making Thrash such a high value button push that hits everything so you always press it and (b) Bristling Fur being so brokenly overpowered. If you actually cared about which buttons you pressed more (by making Mangle and Moonfire more valuable, and only wanting to apply Thrash for the DoT generally) then I think it would be more interesting.

Maybe part of it is also a visual/audio feedback problem. All of the abilities sound and look the same so you don't really have a satisfying feeling when pressing any of them. Certainly nothing like Avenger's Shield for example.

Edit: And also making affinities not suck would go a long way too.
i think lunar beam is for burst
Unfortunately, there's not much point in giving anymore feedback about our class it seems, since they haven't changed anything about Guardian in the last 4 months of alpha/beta.

Maybe when the game goes live and barely anyone takes Lunar Beam (again?? I'd figure they'd have seen it already with Legion...) that we'll get some buffs in 8.1.

So just hold out until December, I guess!
05/07/2018 04:27 PMPosted by Ariellè
I feel like most of the "boringness" of Guardians on live can be traced back to (a) making Thrash such a high value button push that hits everything so you always press it and (b) Bristling Fur being so brokenly overpowered. If you actually cared about which buttons you pressed more (by making Mangle and Moonfire more valuable, and only wanting to apply Thrash for the DoT generally) then I think it would be more interesting.

I'm not sure I'd personally characterize Guardian as "boring". But I do agree that Mangle and Moonfire could stand to be improved, especially because they both have triggers that can proc for an increased effect. When those proc and you press the button, it should be amazing.

Arielle, what are your thoughts on the new FR? I'm actually ok with it being merely a flat heal for 25% max hp. It makes it a little more consistent, but I'd like it if they reverted it back to an instant heal (like it was many years ago). Yes, there could be more overhealing, but it would just feel more effective to me. However, putting it on the GCD feels terrible. There have already been a few times where I've pressed it and it didn't fire due to the GCD. That feels really really bad for a self-heal. And dangerous. I don't like it.
05/08/2018 07:17 AMPosted by Pät
Arielle, what are your thoughts on the new FR? I'm actually ok with it being merely a flat heal for 25% max hp. It makes it a little more consistent, but I'd like it if they reverted it back to an instant heal (like it was many years ago). Yes, there could be more overhealing, but it would just feel more effective to me. However, putting it on the GCD feels terrible. There have already been a few times where I've pressed it and it didn't fire due to the GCD. That feels really really bad for a self-heal. And dangerous. I don't like it.
Pretty much agree with you entirely here. The heal amount is fine, and actually better for low level content and leveling (remember how useless FR was when leveling in Legion). It being on the GCD is absolutely atrocious and you will never be able to predict a time when you can actually get any value out of it 3 seconds + GCD into the future.

Except if you're not actually tanking.
I main balance and have been screwing around with that, but I noticed FR being on the GCD is pretty damn awful. Personally, I'd love to see either that or shifting come off the GCD or at least bear form not trigger it.

On another note, I'm not liking the differences that tend to be just there, particularly with 55 vs 25% stamina bump and an extra charge of FR for bear vs other specs, or how feral has moonkin on a cooldown? I understand the reasoning for some, but those mechanical changes peeve me since I feel like the druid that doesn't know how to be a druid.
05/08/2018 09:22 AMPosted by Hushkawnek
On another note, I'm not liking the differences that tend to be just there, particularly with 55 vs 25% stamina bump and an extra charge of FR for bear vs other specs, or how feral has moonkin on a cooldown? I understand the reasoning for some, but those mechanical changes peeve me since I feel like the druid that doesn't know how to be a druid.


The changes to Bear Form and FR for Guardian vs other specs are entirely to do with how powerful Bear Form + FR is as a defensive for Balance/Resto.

As for MK form having a cooldown for Feral, well... tuning is hard I guess? Apparently owlweaving is not allowed for ferals because it might actually be good, or so I've been told.
Oh don't get me wrong, I understand why. I just wish they had a baseline for the class like they did way back when before nowadays when changing specs is more profound than changing entire classes. At least with the old talent system (or even artifacts of Legion) you could sort of figure out where the extra umph was coming from for a given spec. Now it's just cuz and you have to read the fine print in every tooltip
05/08/2018 05:11 AMPosted by Morrie
Unfortunately, there's not much point in giving anymore feedback about our class it seems, since they haven't changed anything about Guardian in the last 4 months of alpha/beta.

Maybe when the game goes live and barely anyone takes Lunar Beam (again?? I'd figure they'd have seen it already with Legion...) that we'll get some buffs in 8.1.

So just hold out until December, I guess!

I feel like that is a pretty defeatist attitude. I am sure there are CMs and Devs reading the forums periodically. Unfortunately no one has given much in the way of Bear feedback, outside of Faidex. I feel like we would get a lot more traction if we had valid issues to bring up and logic behind them.

Lunar beam is low hanging fruit as it is so undertuned that I challenge anyone to find a respectable parse that used it.

As for us not being very druid, I think this is the core of the issue with the class for legion. We lost that thing that makes us special, shifting and meeting alternative needs. Legion was very fun, but we felt like these 4 tiny little classes under the heading of 'DRUID' not one class with 4 aspects that played off each other.

I am prepping a larger write-up, hopefully we can have a more comprehensive discussion about this later
05/08/2018 01:14 PMPosted by Arceval
I feel like we would get a lot more traction if we had valid issues to bring up and logic behind them.
I mean, the spec is functional. Some don't find it very fun, but it's not in a state where it's completely incapable of doing anything. The issues, such as they are, are easy to identify (most of which are the same as live).

- Frenzied Regen is near impossible to use with any efficiency while on the GCD
- Affinities are horribly undertuned
- Small group utility (i.e. dungeons) is non-existent
- Brambles can't compete with Bristling Fur and/or Blood Frenzy in any capacity (except maybe leveling)
- Lunar Beam is utter trash
- Visual and Auditory feedback from pressing abilities is all the same

There's nothing preventing us from doing the basic job, but at the same time you could be equally as effective playing a VDH or BDK and have a much larger impact in dungeons.
05/08/2018 03:30 PMPosted by Ariellè
- Frenzied Regen is near impossible to use with any efficiency while on the GCD

No doubt. Very frustrating. I saw the Ion Q&A, but on the issue of the GCD, he spoke almost exclusively on DPS. FR (and probably any self heal) is, for the most part, reactionary. Like an interrupt. I've really tried practicing with it and it's still really really awkward.

05/08/2018 03:30 PMPosted by Ariellè
- Affinities are horribly undertuned

Do you mean all of them? Or are some much worse than others so there's not much choice on the tier? I've been sticking with Balance for the added range and it seems pretty decent. Do they really need to be great? Or is pretty decent enough for these?

05/08/2018 03:30 PMPosted by Ariellè
- Small group utility (i.e. dungeons) is non-existent

Indeed. If only they would just make Intimidating Roar actually work correctly and not break instantly on damage.

05/08/2018 03:30 PMPosted by Ariellè
- Brambles can't compete with Bristling Fur and/or Blood Frenzy in any capacity (except maybe leveling)

I'm not sure I'd put this on the top of the priority list for us. Can't Brambles just be the easy talent choice? Get a little more passive dps and a little less resource generation for active abilities. It's utility is for questing and trivial content. Is that not ok?

05/08/2018 03:30 PMPosted by Ariellè
- Lunar Beam is utter trash

Personally, I never used it. It'd have to be a lot better than R&T to make it worth using. Is this just a tuning thing? Or is it just a bad concept?

05/08/2018 03:30 PMPosted by Ariellè
- Visual and Auditory feedback from pressing abilities is all the same

Ordinarily I wouldn't focus too much on the "cosmetics" but in this case, I think this should be a priority as well. Moonfire has a nice visual. And Thrash isn't bad. But what about Mangle? Or Swipe? Kinda dull. I do like the Skull Bash sound though-- Wha-kushhhhhhhh!

05/08/2018 03:30 PMPosted by Ariellè
- Lunar Beam is utter trash

Personally, I never used it. It'd have to be a lot better than R&T to make it worth using. Is this just a tuning thing? Or is it just a bad concept?


It's bad. It's "burst" isn't so high that it out preforms the other options, and when you normalize it against it's cooldown, it actually gives you far less in damage or Healing (as compared to incoming damage reduced) at fairly low incoming damage per second values.

It also locks you into a specific location.

They'd have to tinker with the cooldown, the burst in hps / dps, the locking into place, or all of the above to get in to a possible viable state - or in keeping with the theme of the row, I'd rather they cut it and get Rage of the Sleeper in that spot.
Do you mean all of them? Or are some much worse than others so there's not much choice on the tier? I've been sticking with Balance for the added range and it seems pretty decent. Do they really need to be great? Or is pretty decent enough for these?
The "actives" need to be worth using. Taking an entire affinity just for a passive effect is really bad. We're shapeshifters. Make us want to shapeshift.

Indeed. If only they would just make Intimidating Roar actually work correctly and not break instantly on damage.
I was told the soft cc damage break threshold was supposed to be significantly increased. But character copy isn't available yet (I don't think) so I haven't checked.

I'm not sure I'd put this on the top of the priority list for us. Can't Brambles just be the easy talent choice? Get a little more passive dps and a little less resource generation for active abilities. It's utility is for questing and trivial content. Is that not ok?
Sure, it's definitely not a super serious issue. The only reason Blood Frenzy might even compete with Bristling Fur is if hasted Thrash bleed actually (becomes?) stays a thing. The take-away from this though is that Bristling Fur is oppressively overpowered compared to the other two.

Personally, I never used it. It'd have to be a lot better than R&T to make it worth using. Is this just a tuning thing? Or is it just a bad concept?
Tuning. Having an active ability there is totally fine, but you have to make it actually compete with the other two options. I'd start by dramatically lowering the CD (30 seconds tops) and buffing it to compete with the other two.

05/08/2018 06:13 PMPosted by Pät
But what about Mangle? Or Swipe? Kinda dull. I do like the Skull Bash sound though-- Wha-kushhhhhhhh!
I'm super salty the Mangle effects were replaced in Legion. The old ones were perfect and it had one of the best feelings in the game when you pressed it (on par with Avenger's Shield for me) now it's just bleh.

Honestly if they just reverted the Mangle sound/visual effects back to Warlords that would go a long way.
05/08/2018 07:04 PMPosted by Ariellè
The "actives" need to be worth using. Taking an entire affinity just for a passive effect is really bad. We're shapeshifters. Make us want to shapeshift.


For that to be valuable - we'd also have to have time to do it, and at least for Balance and Feral - the damage would have to be higher than we'd be capable of just staying in Bear form for it to be worth it.
05/08/2018 07:04 PMPosted by Ariellè
The "actives" need to be worth using. Taking an entire affinity just for a passive effect is really bad. We're shapeshifters. Make us want to shapeshift.


First off, it's worth noting that bearcat is *probably* worth doing with how things are on the beta. It's still a neutral/trivial gain on live, and several things that buff bear only (artifact traits and legendaries, mainly) are gone. I'm obviously not going to test it until 120s are available and they actually do something with azerite, but I would be a little surprised if this weren't the case.

Anyway, bearcat should probably have most of its strength tied into the bleeds, so we don't end up in the "25% of globals are shapeshifts" situation of early legion. To that end I'd love to shift some damages around and have Tiger's Fury added to it (and have TF taken off GCD for everyone, of course), so the main focus of the spec is being able to apply buffed rake+5pt rip every 30s. If it ends up being worth it to shift between those times, cool, but the main damage would be those buffed bleeds.
(Resto doesn't work well with bleeds due to the lack of snapshotting, but TF would just work similar to current chatoyant, and it's easier to make restokitty viable.)

I don't really see a reason to have both damage affinities actively viable (I mean it would be cool, but this is a fringe playstyle anyway, it really doesn't need THAT much attention). All I'd really like to see for balance aff is:
Wild Charge off GCD, so starsurge pulling remains doable.
Starsurge damage up, so it feels like a good nuke.
Starsurge/Lunar Strike mana costs removed, just because they really don't need to be there.

Resto I have no ideas I'm particularly happy with.

Guardian aff (not really relevant to guardian druids, I just want to touch on all the affinities while I'm posting) could really use some help now that Feral's losing its good tanking tools and bear's being nerfed for other specs. Probably FR not dropping when you leave bear form, and guardian aff giving ~50 rage when entering bear so these specs can actually ever use Ironfur.

05/08/2018 03:30 PMPosted by Ariellè
- Brambles can't compete with Bristling Fur and/or Blood Frenzy in any capacity (except maybe leveling)

Beta brambles tuning is a little silly (a little below 1% of max hp, imagine live brambles absorbing/reflecting 130k). Couple that with IF being pretty bad on beta (like 22-23% reduction on the first stack, looking at a set of mythic dungeon gear and guessing base agility for a 120), BF being on GCD, and getting a bunch of rage from that weird "gain 3 rage when hit" thing that's not documented anywhere and doesn't show up in the combat log. I'm more worried that the opposite is true and that brambles is the only viable choice for anything but a raid boss.

Or maybe it has weird level scaling or something, I AM just basing this on 110 stats and a reasonable understanding of how abilities/gear scale. Still, I don't see an easy, good way to balance flat absorb with % reduction across multiple levels of damage. Keeping brambles as the easy/DPS talent is probably best unless it's going to be completely reworked.

05/08/2018 07:04 PMPosted by Ariellè
I'd start by dramatically lowering the CD (30 seconds tops) and buffing it to compete with the other two.

As someone who uses Lunar Beam near-exclusively (caster bear is my preferred aesthetic, and the 100 tier's not that strong anyway), what I'd most want to see is a base radius of at least 8 yards. You know, like EVERY OTHER AOE ABILITY. Thankfully I can just always use balance aff, the spell feels so pitiful without it.

A 30s cd alone is probably good enough for ST, would probably end up a bit weaker than the others but it's a nice chunk of AoE on a short CD, it should. A 30s cd probably makes it the only dungeon choice unless there's a boss you just need the % reduction for, and makes it the only choice on fights with frequent AoE (think portal keeper). Offensively, I'm not entirely sold that the CD needs to be that low, and it definitely wouldn't need further buffs.

Defensively, 30s cd actually sounds fine, it's like a second FR.

05/08/2018 03:30 PMPosted by Ariellè
- Visual and Auditory feedback from pressing abilities is all the same

They broke all our combat animations most of a year ago, and haven't bothered getting around to fixing that (gotta love auto-attack animations for every attack). I don't really trust them to actually care about that :(.

05/08/2018 03:30 PMPosted by Ariellè
Frenzied Regen is near impossible to use with any efficiency while on the GCD

Obviously this needs to be off the GCD, but even then, it takes a full second to do any healing at all, and is spread out over 5s total. It's SO SLOW now, just feels bad.
05/08/2018 10:13 PMPosted by Ahanss
Obviously this needs to be off the GCD, but even then, it takes a full second to do any healing at all, and is spread out over 5s total. It's SO SLOW now, just feels bad.
Oh god, I didn't even catch this one. There's a reason we had it changed to 0.5s ticks over 3s in the first place. There's no viable reason to ever press the button except when doing solo content with it like that. It's just always going to get wasted when you have an external healer.

Anyway, bearcat should probably have most of its strength tied into the bleeds, so we don't end up in the "25% of globals are shapeshifts" situation of early legion. To that end I'd love to shift some damages around and have Tiger's Fury added to it (and have TF taken off GCD for everyone, of course), so the main focus of the spec is being able to apply buffed rake+5pt rip every 30s. If it ends up being worth it to shift between those times, cool, but the main damage would be those buffed bleeds.
(Resto doesn't work well with bleeds due to the lack of snapshotting, but TF would just work similar to current chatoyant, and it's easier to make restokitty viable.)

I don't really see a reason to have both damage affinities actively viable (I mean it would be cool, but this is a fringe playstyle anyway, it really doesn't need THAT much attention). All I'd really like to see for balance aff is:
Wild Charge off GCD, so starsurge pulling remains doable.
Starsurge damage up, so it feels like a good nuke.
Starsurge/Lunar Strike mana costs removed, just because they really don't need to be there.
Totally agree that both don't have to be viable, but at least one (and thematically the melee one makes the most sense) should have at least some benefit. Also agree with all the tweaks to Feral.

Guardian aff (not really relevant to guardian druids, I just want to touch on all the affinities while I'm posting) could really use some help now that Feral's losing its good tanking tools and bear's being nerfed for other specs. Probably FR not dropping when you leave bear form, and guardian aff giving ~50 rage when entering bear so these specs can actually ever use Ironfur.
Also agree.

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