BFA Feral Feedback

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Looking forward to the changes.

I don't hate where feral is at right now, so tuning numbers is perfect.
However, as others have already pointed out, feral could still really use a rework on talent designs.

I hope when bliz reveals our "package" they let us know it's with the mindset of reviewing our foundation at a later date. IDK if we'll be top priority for a real rework, and from the sounds of this post it seems like this is pure numbers and %'s. So I really hope we can know our game plan as a spec going forward once this is revealed.
08/22/2018 08:11 AMPosted by Brokenclaws
People keep saying bring Blood Talons to baseline. I for one hate blood talons, if this is done i'd like a talent that would allow me to ignore it.
A fair question as I'd be absolutely petrified of the suggestion of current BT brought baseline. While we do have certain players calling for just that, I really do not agree with this, as (like you mention) completely !@#$s over those players who have negative opinions on the talent.

And we don't want that.

Keeping it as a talent promotes some seriously different subspecs which has been proven to be difficult to tune around for players who may enjoy one style or the other, being that BT itself is such a polarising talent that segregates the Feral players.

So we can't drop it completely, we can't implement the current version baseline, and keeping subspecs as is has proven to be an issue that %^-*s over one preference depending on the patch and how you like to play Feral.

So this leads to a compromise.

Smooth it out. Remove it's interaction with our utility. If it's left as a separate button, remove it's GCD or make it a passive synergy that increases the strength of TF. There are many ways to make it less !@#$ than it is now. Feral is the Bleed spec, though shouldn't need to suffer jarring/unenjoyable mechanics because of this.

Though doing this will go a long way in alleviating the issues brought forward in Feral's subspecs. Especially in the case where the gameplay is altered greatly due to the talents selected, this needs to be condensed.

For those with an opinion of BT, post exactly what you enjoy/hate about it, and what you'd do to improve on how it works. Get the information on this thread as detailed feedback on this exact issue can help the developers into designing an alternative if it's needed.
08/21/2018 01:04 PMPosted by Kaivax
We're currently working through a tuning package for Feral Druids.

Specifically, we're adjusting Feral performance relative to other specs in dungeons and questing. Please know: we've been reading all of the incoming feedback and keeping a close eye on player results in-game.

Thank you for all of this feedback. Much of it has been very useful in determining the substance of this adjustment.

This is something that we're testing carefully, and probably won't be finished and available to put into the live game until later this week. I'll let you know as soon as we have final numbers, and I'll post about it a final time when it goes live.


Thank you so much for this!!
Feral is very viable, I manage to top damage in dungeons both aoe and single target.

You guys need to stop giving feral a bad stigma again, feral is fine it's just a learn to play issue.

Leave legion behind and learn to adapt to the new changes.
08/22/2018 08:54 AMPosted by Kyoski
Feral is very viable, I manage to top damage in dungeons both aoe and single target.

You guys need to stop giving feral a bad stigma again, feral is fine it's just a learn to play issue.

Leave legion behind and learn to adapt to the new changes.


Yeah you’ve discovered the secret that no one else, not even the best feral players and theorycrafters in the world, have figured out. Oh please educate us great sensei. /s

If you think Feral is fine in its current state you’re the one that needs to learn to play - or more accurately, the terribads you’re beating in dungeons do.
[quote="207662996714"]

For those with an opinion of BT, post exactly what you enjoy/hate about it, and what you'd do to improve on how it works. Get the information on this thread as detailed feedback on this exact issue can help the developers into designing an alternative if it's needed.


Personally, I enjoy BT because it adds a little bit of complexity to the rotation without necessarily adding a new skill to find room for on your hotkeys. It's something to keep track of but makes use of a button you already have on your bar, it just changes how you interact with that button. I don't believe it should be baseline, but what has always attracted me to feral was the complexity of the rotation and monitoring uptimes. High risk, high reward has always been my view of feral. For me, the removal of BT would lessen the complexity and therefore my perceived enjoyment of the spec.
08/22/2018 08:34 AMPosted by Brún
Yeah some of the best Feral players in the world are just a bunch of stodgy old elitists who are holding the spec back /rolleyes
Well yeah. When they approach any such discussion of criticism of BT into "suck it up" and "reroll", they are absolutely something from which I'd receive a 3 day holiday from the forums for.

When their solution involves this "suck it up" or "reroll", there isn't much faith in their advice into helping the spec through the development, and again, would highly suggest Blizzard to no longer use Dreamgrove for this purpose, as you've clearly shown your abilities to discuss an issue that needs attention!
08/22/2018 08:34 AMPosted by Brún
This is the crux of your issue I think. Let me make this clear: this is an unreasonable ask.. Every spec has a “meta build” and given that we are just one spec of a larger class it’s completely unrealistic to ask for several viable builds or “sub-specs”, all of which are balanced against each other and all of the other specs in the game.
Something of which I completely agree on, which if done effectively will result in a Feral spec that is not only enjoyable, but is stable for each patch cycle where the player base isn't completely divided.

So, with that said, get those "best Feral players in the world" in a discussion on how to fix this issue of subspecs! We have a post here with a blue mark noting that Feral is not in a good place, which is a fantastic place for them to post constructive feedback, which has now been noted as being read by the developers!

The best in the world, suggesting we all suck it up and reroll! About time their worth is shown. Have them suggest ways to improve BT from the cumbersome PoS it is now. Smooth, not intrusive of utility and enjoyable to the spec that deserves it's place as a baseline ability. I want Feral to be Bleed centric without the segregation of it's playerbase. Which is something we both need for this spec.

It's about time "the best" show us, and the developers how that is done, because currently they've gone so far as the standard troll with suck it up, and reroll discussion.


For those with an opinion of BT, post exactly what you enjoy/hate about it, and what you'd do to improve on how it works. Get the information on this thread as detailed feedback on this exact issue can help the developers into designing an alternative if it's needed.


Personally, I enjoy BT because it adds a little bit of complexity to the rotation without necessarily adding a new skill to find room for on your hotkeys. It's something to keep track of but makes use of a button you already have on your bar, it just changes how you interact with that button. I don't believe it should be baseline, but what has always attracted me to feral was the complexity of the rotation and monitoring uptimes. High risk, high reward has always been my view of feral. For me, the removal of BT would lessen the complexity and therefore my perceived enjoyment of the spec.
A fantastic start! You'd be surprised how much this informs the developers what exactly is appealing to BT while also allowing an in depth view on how to best implement it's mechanics.

Would love to see more like this!
Though please remember that these are personal critiques of the ability. There is no right or wrong in this exercise, where those voicing their thoughts on BT should not need to defend their own opinion on how it feels.

As for those posting "feral is fine"...
It isn't. Actually pretty far from fine that it warranted a blue response after all this time through development. That is a clear indication that Feral has some pretty dire issues for current tuning, and we can only hope that further involvement results in a spec that doesn't !@#$ players over every patch cycle, depending of their preferences of playstyle.
My issue with feral at the moment isn't with the kit. My ideal scenario would be SR, BT, LI being the top dmg talents. My issue is purely the numbers. I like having to work hard to do damage, even with AoE. Multi-raking, multi-rips... I do not want to be like certain other specs that walk in and spam one or two buttons to decimate everything.

My issue comes back to my view of what feral should be - 'High risk, high reward'

The risk(complexity) is there. But try as I might the reward just isn't.

If I were to ressurect one thing I do miss though, it would be the 0 combo point SR. It just feels bad to open up with SR not up.
I get a bit confused about the fact that feral is in fact a bleed based spec yet some people want to play it as DD. You don't spec affliction then just spam shadowbolt. It is a bleed spec and first and foremost should be that. Subspecs are fine but subspecs that invalidate bleeds are why the balance problems keep happening.

The BrS/MoC spec was the least feral core build I've ever experienced and I hated it. And I think Blizzard realized it strayed to far from the bleed-centric idea they desire.

If we have all these bleed buffs baseline and vary other things in talents we could all be bleed spec, which is what feral is, and just vary if we prefer a simpler rotation, sustained, or burst, not whether we want DD or bleeds. If you want DD why are you playing feral?
08/21/2018 01:04 PMPosted by Kaivax
We're currently working through a tuning package for Feral Druids.

Specifically, we're adjusting Feral performance relative to other specs in dungeons and questing. Please know: we've been reading all of the incoming feedback and keeping a close eye on player results in-game.

Thank you for all of this feedback. Much of it has been very useful in determining the substance of this adjustment.

This is something that we're testing carefully, and probably won't be finished and available to put into the live game until later this week. I'll let you know as soon as we have final numbers, and I'll post about it a final time when it goes live.


I feel like the stats don't scale proper, to me to fix feral properly for the new design, is give us more energy regen from the haste, I have a screen shot of the haste I had ingame from a world buff you guys would love to see it, when I had that amount of haste feral was feeling how it should feel nice and smooth with no clunks

and thank you for fixing our issues :)
08/22/2018 10:09 AMPosted by Carbonaceous
I get a bit confused about the fact that feral is in fact a bleed based spec yet some people want to play it as DD. You don't spec affliction then just spam shadowbolt. It is a bleed spec and first and foremost should be that. Subspecs are fine but subspecs that invalidate bleeds are why the balance problems keep happening.

The BrS/MoC spec was the least feral core build I've ever experienced and I hated it. And I think Blizzard realized it strayed to far from the bleed-centric idea they desire.

If we have all these bleed buffs baseline and vary other things in talents we could all be bleed spec, which is what feral is, and just vary if we prefer a simpler rotation, sustained, or burst, not whether we want DD or bleeds. If you want DD why are you playing feral?


I see sentiments like this quite often in Feral threads, and to be honest, I think they arise from a fundamental misunderstanding of what the other side wants.

I guess I'd fall into what you say is the direct damage camp, but I'm not advocating for playing Feral as a purely direct damage. Feral is firmly rooted in the damage over time playstyle with its Mastery, and without a core redesign, nothing is changing that. So, to the folks who're drawing battle lines out and sharpening their serrated bleed-based claws (not saying you are Carbon) to defend it, don't worry. We're not coming for your cherished bleed-based playstyle.

I think what many of us want is the opportunity to use direct damage skills more often that coincides with the bleed-based playstyle, and even enhances it with clever design interactions.

I've always envisioned feral as a great cat who tears into its enemies with bleed based skills, and then adds damage of those bleeds by biting and tearing at the wounds they've created to make their enemies bleed out faster. It'd even be cool if direct damage skills had an additive effect to bleeding damage, but that's just a thought.

Now, I know I've just made an enemy for life of the old guard ferals, so let me just say this in summation. I firmly believe that we all want roughly the same thing, a fun, engaging Feral specialization. I just want direct damage skills, while not the mechanical focus of the feral specialization, to be competitive, compelling, and rewarding to use on a more regular basis in rotation.
08/22/2018 10:09 AMPosted by Carbonaceous
I get a bit confused about the fact that feral is in fact a bleed based spec yet some people want to play it as DD.
It's call choice. Feral was a bleed spec in the beginning, but there's choice that allowed DD style to be effective, which gain a heavy boost in 7.3.

The balance between both style is 'off', but the idea of having choices is sound.

If anything, people forget the one simple fact about bleeds - It's damage over time. Much like Affliction, your dps percentage gets worse if targets didn't live long enough for your bleeds to tick.

What makes it even worse is that bleed-centric lacks burst capability, which Berserk/Incarnation clearly works better with DD builds.

Anyone wanna go back to the 'i can't burst or aoe, but i'm the boss killer' feral? Because that's what bleed-centric builds always forced ferals into.
08/22/2018 10:09 AMPosted by Carbonaceous
If you want DD why are you playing feral?
The better question: Why feral can 'only' be bleeds?

Even Assassination rogues now gets to choose to be either poison OR bleeds, with their new shining mastery.

Arguing 'managing bleeds is fun' against 'having big crits with big bites is fun' is asinine - both are feral, and both appeals to their own players. Unless we intend to make feral into a niche spec with a small crowd.

08/22/2018 09:59 AMPosted by Rip
If I were to ressurect one thing I do miss though, it would be the 0 combo point SR. It just feels bad to open up with SR not up.
That would go against your idea of 'high risk, high reward'.

Where's the risk when you essentially remove the biggest obstacle of managing SR? I literally 'can't fail' even if i totally screwed my CP management because i can always use SR with 0 CP.
This pleases me.
Where's the risk when you essentially remove the biggest obstacle of managing SR? I literally 'can't fail' even if i totally screwed my CP management because i can always use SR with 0 CP.


To be fair it still costs energy.
But like, we could have both. My point is our bleed damage buffs that are required to play the spec to remotely near it's highest point, those talents should be baseline. They should put new talents in that reinforce bleeds more or give more energy for direct damage. But for any of this to happen we need bleed to be the base spec.

My quarrel is with people who liked the BrS/MoC playstyle that barely did any bleed damage and was all direct damage. If direct damage is a thing it should always be under bleeds in % of your damage done given the mob lives at least 10 seconds. The options in talents should be for instance if baseline is 25% Rip 30% Rake, if you want to play direct damage those numbers go to maybe 20% Rip 25% Rake and 20% FB 20% Shred whereas if you wanted a full dot spec those would go up to 30% Rip 35% Rake 10%Moonfire 10% Shred.

These numbers are purely for explaining my opinion and obviously not fact-based.
08/21/2018 04:56 PMPosted by Silphis
As well, please, i beg you, make berserk stays up when you change the form, countless times i needed to change form to cast a regrowth to buff my bleed damage via bloodtalon (first time), only to see berserk buff vanishing.
Going to send a hotfix soon to fix this. Berserk should persist through shapeshifting, same as Tiger's Fury and Incarnation: King of the Jungle. Thanks for pointing it out.
I'm so stoked this is coming sooner rather than in Sept.

I hope the tuning makes feral a strong spec for mythic+
08/22/2018 10:47 AMPosted by Butterbao

Where's the risk when you essentially remove the biggest obstacle of managing SR? I literally 'can't fail' even if i totally screwed my CP management because i can always use SR with 0 CP.


It still costs energy and only lasted 7-8 seconds IIRC. So if you intend to use it at 0 CP outside of pre combat, it very much fits in high risk high reward. Because if you use it incorrectly your damage suffers.
08/22/2018 08:49 AMPosted by Rockford
For those with an opinion of BT, post exactly what you enjoy/hate about it,


Promotes sitting on targets - as it tightens the rotation up too much to allow you to go off and do something else within the fight.

Uses up our utility - aka free cast of a heal or other ability to increase damage when we don't need to, in favour of boosting dps.

Annoying on short lived adds.

Increases ramp time.

Cripples the design of the spec as we are either in feast or famine mode due to how bloodtalons has this annoying habit of becoming OP when tertiary stats are brought into play - especially back in mists with the lei shen trinket.

Kills desire for people to play the spec, as they see it as an overcomplex spec that you can do well on and get a certain output of damage, then see most other specs in the game just roll a few buttons and out dps you. Yes, this happens a lot and turns people off playing feral. We were a dying spec with low participation before the change from BT bleeds to DD in legion. You just have to look at participation rates to see this... and removing emphasis on BT does not kill a bleed centric play style. it just removes one annoying mechanic in the spec.

We never had BT in BC, Wrath (arguably the best feral has been in the entire game) and Cata, additionally it was not the be all and end all in mists until the OP lei shen trinket made it so. There were two equally viable spec builds, one which used other talents than dream of cenarius and BT (two different talents back then too)

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