Nothing is "free", ML people are right

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05/06/2018 02:46 PMPosted by Jalen
05/06/2018 02:30 PMPosted by Nutts
EVERYONE who participated in the raid put in the time and effort for the run... EVERYONE has earned their equal share.


False. Because why would I give a gear piece to someone who fails personal responsibility mechanics on Mythic Difficulty? And lets toss in that the Raid Lead is looking for a replacement but is stuck with them for the time being.


Doesn't matter if the raid leader is looking for a replacement, they turned up did what they were meant to do, passed and have equal rights to the loot on offer.

They might not have done it as cleanly as you wanted, but they still deserve loot.

How about this, Your boss wants to replace you but as they weren't able to find a replacement in time, your still expected to turn up and do the job, but you don't get paid. Is that fair? Using your logic it is.
Nice troll... A for effort this Sunday.
The stated purpose behind Personal Loot was "trials deserve loot too", it was also implied (with no actual data to prove it) that there was a lot of favoritism, nepotism, guild masters "giving loot to their wife", etc going on in raiding guilds.

Ironically, the changes will likely ENCOURAGE just these kinds of "corrupt" behaviors from raiding guilds. As mythic guilds adapt in order to protect themselves, we'll probably see "whole new levels" of favoritism, nepotism, etc in BFA.

It makes more sense from a logic standpoint... why bring some random trial to the raid (who can gquit right after the raid for all you know) when you can bring someone more "trustworthy" such as your friend, family member, girlfriend, etc? Nepotism/favoritism is certainly safer in terms of "keeping loot inside the guild".

Ironically, the "casual friendly" and "open" raiding guilds will probably be screwed over the worst by Personal Loot... as there is literally nothing stopping their new members/trials from simply using them, getting some loot, and then leaving the guild. "No good deed goes unpunished" and such.
05/06/2018 02:36 PMPosted by Kahllul
Thats just simply not true. Have you EVER worked on a group project in a school or work setting where everyone did the exact same amount of work? Of course not. You might have divided into parts and everyone did it, but almost always one persons work will be low quality compared to others. However, in most of those cases, the reward is equally distributed whether it be a grade, bonus, etc.


And you know what you did? You didn't group with that person again.

If a person isn't meeting your expectations in a raid, then don't invite them back or kick them.

In the meantime, however, that person is playing the game, same as you. They're putting just as much time into the game, same as you. Nobody expects free loot, but they want their time invested in the game to be compensated, and that's not as outrageous as you're making it to be.
The stated purpose behind Personal Loot was "trials deserve loot too", it was also implied (with no actual data to prove it) that there was a lot of favoritism, nepotism, guild masters "giving loot to their wife", etc going on in raiding guilds.

Ironically, the changes will likely ENCOURAGE just these kinds of "corrupt" behaviors from raiding guilds. As mythic guilds adapt in order to protect themselves, we'll probably see "whole new levels" of favoritism, nepotism, etc in BFA.

It makes more sense from a logic standpoint... why bring some random trial to the raid (who can gquit right after the raid for all you know) when you can bring someone more "trustworthy" such as your friend, family member, girlfriend, etc? Nepotism/favoritism is certainly safer in terms of "keeping loot inside the guild".

Meanwhile, the "casual friendly" and "open" raiding guilds will probably be screwed over the most by Personal Loot... as there is literally nothing stopping their new members/trials from simply getting some loot and then leaving the guild. "No good deed goes unpunished" and such.

I've been raiding in a PL group that clears 11/11 H three times a week and we never have the problems you describe. We bring in new people every week, they raid, they get loot. If they fail we don't bring them back. If they do well, we bring them back. We clear Chosen Runs, M Gul'dan runs, and are currently working on making M KJ runs for our "community" I like to call it.

Guilds who do what you're talking about are going to die off very early on. People will realize that groups like mine exist and not bother with what you're describing. Casual guilds are going to remain just that and not worry about people coming and going. There is almost no real downside to removing ML.
05/06/2018 03:46 PMPosted by Nebekinezzar
I've been raiding in a PL group that clears 11/11 H three times a week and we never have the problems you describe. We bring in new people every week, they raid, they get loot.


Inb4 : they claim your opinion is irrelevant hahahaha

Don't bother reasoning with emm, its the 20 man mythic protesters all over again.
05/06/2018 03:21 PMPosted by Gnomwix
Doesn't matter if the raid leader is looking for a replacement, they turned up did what they were meant to do


*coughs up drink*

I'm sorry but did what they're supposed to? Failing personal responsibility mechanics is doing what they're meant to do?

05/06/2018 03:21 PMPosted by Gnomwix
How about this, Your boss wants to replace you but as they weren't able to find a replacement in time, your still expected to turn up and do the job, but you don't get paid. Is that fair? Using your logic it is.


Payment comes from me doing the job. If the job hinges on me doing it then I'll do it. In Mythic Raiding dying repeatedly isn't doing the job. So your logic makes no sense because the player in question in your scenario is doing the job but not getting paid while in game the player is failing repeatedly and expecting compensation for it.
05/06/2018 02:25 PMPosted by Wariya
Thats nice dear........enjoy your progression with PL in bfa Op

Happy Sunday folks :)


Both sides have valid points. I'm not touching this one with a 10 foot pole.
05/06/2018 03:34 PMPosted by Kektroll
The stated purpose behind Personal Loot was "trials deserve loot too", it was also implied (with no actual data to prove it) that there was a lot of favoritism, nepotism, guild masters "giving loot to their wife", etc going on in raiding guilds.

lol ok dude
05/06/2018 03:15 PMPosted by Skrizy
05/06/2018 03:00 PMPosted by Hemerick
...

How much did curve cost? Asking for a friend


Cost of curve was the time it took to accomplish it.


In the case of that dude, we both know that's not true :D
Don't you get more loot per person with PL? I thought I saw that somewhere.
If you contribute to the kill, you deserve a shake at the loot. Period end of story. The culture of this game must be quite sick indeed to think you can exclude pugs and trials from the fruits of their labor.
05/06/2018 03:51 PMPosted by Sunday
05/06/2018 02:25 PMPosted by Wariya
Thats nice dear........enjoy your progression with PL in bfa Op

Happy Sunday folks :)


Both sides have valid points. I'm not touching this one with a 10 foot pole.


Ok, Sunday cya next Sunday
05/06/2018 02:19 PMPosted by Kektroll

I'm sorry to rain on your parade or be a "Debbie downer", but this concept of "free stuff" doesn't work in the real world OR the video game world.


Nope.

It will exactly work, since there won't be master loot. So free stuff will exactly work. See, because there won't be master loot it will just be free.

It is so weird you can't see that.
I....I just .......what?

A handout would be guild members expecting loot to be given to them just by being in the guild, regardless of whether they ran the raid or not.

Has the ML/PL argument degenerated to the point where we're criticizing people for actually doing the work of running the raid and expecting something, anything, afterwards?
05/06/2018 02:30 PMPosted by Nutts
you do realize that no one is arguing about free stuff...

EVERYONE who participated in the raid put in the time and effort for the run... EVERYONE has earned their equal share. It has nothing to do with "free".


Sorry but when did we become filthy communists?

“To each according to his need” is the fighting slogan of those who provide no value.

The correct mindset should be “to each according to his worth”

Simply existing in the raid regardless of the boss does or not should not merit loot.
05/06/2018 04:17 PMPosted by Shèryl
05/06/2018 02:30 PMPosted by Nutts
you do realize that no one is arguing about free stuff...

EVERYONE who participated in the raid put in the time and effort for the run... EVERYONE has earned their equal share. It has nothing to do with "free".


Sorry but when did we become filthy communists?

“To each according to his need” is the fighting slogan of those who provide no value.

The correct mindset should be “to each according to his worth”

Simply existing in the raid regardless of the boss does or not should not merit loot.


You do realize that communism is an extreme form of socialism, which is exactly the kind of government that would allocate resources amongst a population as it saw fit.....

.....you know, exactly how master loot works?
05/06/2018 02:19 PMPosted by Kektroll
I don't know where this concept of "free stuff" comes from, every guild that raids Mythic invests real time, energy, and effort into getting those bosses down. And of course there are also the "loyalty" and "seniority" factors to consider (people that have actually stuck around thru thick and thin, not flaked out, not gquit, etc). You pro-Personal Loot people listen to too many Bernie speeches, nothing of value is "free".

I'm sorry to rain on your parade or be a "Debbie downer", but this concept of "free stuff" doesn't work in the real world OR the video game world.

Conclusion

The pro-Master Looter crowd is right.


How exactly are they right? They expect to get free stuff off their trials.
05/06/2018 03:46 PMPosted by Nebekinezzar
I've been raiding in a PL group that clears 11/11 H three times a week and we never have the problems you describe. We bring in new people every week, they raid, they get loot. If they fail we don't bring them back. If they do well, we bring them back. We clear Chosen Runs, M Gul'dan runs, and are currently working on making M KJ runs for our "community" I like to call it.

Wow, you're clearing heroic 6 months into the tier.

Tell me more about how that proves or disproves anything.
People who are advocates of PL over ML are just greedy who care only about themselves and nothing about the guild as a whole. These are people you don't want in your progression guild anyway so good riddance to them.

In fact if it were my guild I would add a question to your Application to my guild that says: Do you believe in PL or ML and Why, and if they answered PL I wouldnt consider their app cause they are selfish people.

Secondly, Guilds will just require people to hand over any loot they get that isn't bound or be kicked. I know it will be in my guilds rules and when you join the guild youll be told and you can either choose to join or don't join. Up to you.

The one time it does suck is when its a higher Ilvl item and the recruit cant trade it, but I guess we just have to live with that now.

On top of all the other stuff like having to have references and such before joining guilds - Sorry PL crowd yall thought getting into and getting Heroic/Mythic gear was hard before, well it just got ALOT harder.

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