We do not "steal" trials loot VI

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05/10/2018 05:29 AMPosted by Dandelowise
05/10/2018 04:46 AMPosted by Kolkol
Same 6 people arguing against each other in the first thread and this one.

ML this, PL that.

True mythic raiders will adapt, they didn't raid because of loot council or masterloot.

Only the wannabe mythic raiders who didn't kill M argus yet, are complaining about the change.


894 Guilds have cleared Argus in the WORLD. So excluding reclears with carries/bench players, less than 18k people in the world have cleared Argus. In the US (which this is the US forums), 319 guilds have cleared Argus, so about 6400 people. How many do you think are actively posting on the filth that is general discussion? Do you know why they don't post here? Well...just take a look at comments from people like hunterer and you'll get an idea.

But go ahead, insult anyone who isn't 11/11 yet while hiding behind a shadow account because you are too scared to show anyone your actual one.


Guaranteed those are the people that have never stepped foot in a mythic raid, he could easily post on a level 20 to view this top world CE progression he has, but he won't because it don't exist. Just ignore him.

The glory of a level 1 is you can be anyone you want to be, we can create a level 1 and claim we are core raiders in method, can it be proven? Gotta love trolls lol
whos stealing loot from me?
Do these threads even add anything more to the argument beyond restating the same things over and over and over again? And how many even read every page? I'm sure Blizzard's at the point where they literally just glance through it without reading every post.

For every guild and pug group that uses master loot fairly, there are likely an equal number or more than use it unfairly. When Blizzard gets tired of devoting man power to dealing with an issue, they automate it. Personal loot effectively avoids the issue of ninja loot in pugs where you are told one thing at the beginning only to get screwed later. Only issue then is getting kicked for not trading loot, but you got your loot so at least you don't walk away completely empty handed. Then it also solves the issue with clique guilds that gear certain people first ahead of everyone else and do so repeatedly.

Funny thing is, if loot in general wasn't an issue because people used master loot fairly and trials felt they didn't deserve any, then why do guilds have a hard time recruiting people? Ever consider that many people just won't join guilds or even just random pug raids they don't trust to use master loot fairly? How to get more people to join guilds or pugs if people don't trust the leader?

There's also the issue of why is it that if someone is on a probationary period with a new job they expect to be paid for their work but if someone is on a probationary period in WoW because they just joined they get nothing but repairs? You did some of the work. You deserve some reward.
05/10/2018 05:42 AMPosted by Dyra

For every guild and pug group that uses master loot fairly, there are likely an equal number or more than use it unfairly.

Citation needed
As I said before:
I can't believe this is still a thing.
05/10/2018 05:42 AMPosted by Dyra
Do these threads even add anything more to the argument beyond restating the same things over and over and over again? And how many even read every page? I'm sure Blizzard's at the point where they literally just glance through it without reading every post.

For every guild and pug group that uses master loot fairly, there are likely an equal number or more than use it unfairly. When Blizzard gets tired of devoting man power to dealing with an issue, they automate it. Personal loot effectively avoids the issue of ninja loot in pugs where you are told one thing at the beginning only to get screwed later. Only issue then is getting kicked for not trading loot, but you got your loot so at least you don't walk away completely empty handed. Then it also solves the issue with clique guilds that gear certain people first ahead of everyone else and do so repeatedly.

Funny thing is, if loot in general wasn't an issue because people used master loot fairly and trials felt they didn't deserve any, then why do guilds have a hard time recruiting people? Ever consider that many people just won't join guilds or even just random pug raids they don't trust to use master loot fairly? How to get more people to join guilds or pugs if people don't trust the leader?

There's also the issue of why is it that if someone is on a probationary period with a new job they expect to be paid for their work but if someone is on a probationary period in WoW because they just joined they get nothing but repairs? You did some of the work. You deserve some reward.

Heroic to mythic guilds don't really strugle with recruiting from what I understand. They're constantly recruiting to make sure they have filled rosters in case a core member has to drop. That could be from burn out, RL issues, or any number of things.
05/10/2018 03:16 AMPosted by Trafficz
the removal of ML has already been decided so whining incessantly is sad and pointless.

but by all means carry on.


Its not really whining per se, at least not by everyone, also I see a thread about flying on the front page and that has been going on for years.
05/10/2018 05:42 AMPosted by Dyra
There's also the issue of why is it that if someone is on a probationary period with a new job they expect to be paid for their work but if someone is on a probationary period in WoW because they just joined they get nothing but repairs? You did some of the work. You deserve some reward.
The payoff for the trial period is that you can prove for why the guild should keep you, you get to see content, you get loot that isn't needed by other members, etc. You just don't get highly sought after items that guild members still need/want.

But as for the new job reference, you don't get any benefits during the probationary period. That includes pay time off, bonuses, insurance, etc.

The problem comes into play where a trial comes in expecting BiS gear and has it drop and it goes to someone else who had been waiting for said item to drop for months.
There's not going to be a compromise because currently there already is. If you want PL, you join a PL group. If you want ML, you join a ML group. It is abundantly clear (or should be) that they do not feel that we can be trusted to make our own decisions on whether or not we want a human or a computer to take care of our loot.
Oh look, a bunch of thieves crying over a positive change in the game.
05/10/2018 06:23 AMPosted by Devney
Oh look, a bunch of thieves crying over a positive change in the game.
Do you have an actual argument to add to the discussion or do you lack one to defend your position from and resorted to insults? Alls I see is you're putting out an assertion with a clear lack of evidence and attacking people's character but not their arguments or points.
05/10/2018 06:23 AMPosted by Devney
Oh look, a bunch of thieves crying over a positive change in the game.


Oh look another person this has nothing to do with that has never stepped in a real raid. These are the people blizz wants to listen to? Laughable
Do these threads even add anything more to the argument beyond restating the same things over and over and over again? And how many even read every page? I'm sure Blizzard's at the point where they literally just glance through it without reading every post.

For every guild and pug group that uses master loot fairly, there are likely an equal number or more than use it unfairly. When Blizzard gets tired of devoting man power to dealing with an issue, they automate it. Personal loot effectively avoids the issue of ninja loot in pugs where you are told one thing at the beginning only to get screwed later. Only issue then is getting kicked for not trading loot, but you got your loot so at least you don't walk away completely empty handed. Then it also solves the issue with clique guilds that gear certain people first ahead of everyone else and do so repeatedly.

Funny thing is, if loot in general wasn't an issue because people used master loot fairly and trials felt they didn't deserve any, then why do guilds have a hard time recruiting people? Ever consider that many people just won't join guilds or even just random pug raids they don't trust to use master loot fairly? How to get more people to join guilds or pugs if people don't trust the leader?

There's also the issue of why is it that if someone is on a probationary period with a new job they expect to be paid for their work but if someone is on a probationary period in WoW because they just joined they get nothing but repairs? You did some of the work. You deserve some reward.


I bolded the worst part of your argument. LOOT IS NOT PAYMENT. Until Blizzard makes 20 pieces of loot drop your argument is entirely invalid.
05/10/2018 04:46 AMPosted by Kolkol
Only the wannabe mythic raiders who didn't kill M argus yet, are complaining about the change.
hi, i think this is an awful change
ML should be left to guilds to use at their own discretion. Having RNG as the way to gear is awful, it slows down progression so much, i HATE how Ion has this obsession with RNG, its not fun, it stupid, its window licking level of stupidity. With bonus rolls 9/10 times giving AP and bosses giving gold with personal loot, its flat out stupid when its left to RNG as opposed to ML where, okay maybe that trinket went to someone else last week so this week you will get that trinket if it drops.

id rather stick with a system that would guarantee me loot for my efforts rather then the game rolling the dice for me and giving me 30 gold week after week, its flat out stupid.

if they REALLY cared about players getting loot, they would do something similar to PvP vendors, and letting us spend something similar to honor/valor points on a vendor that sell gear based on progression. but there goals are not to make gearing "fair" they want to slow down progression. their thinly veiled ruse does not fool me.
05/10/2018 05:29 AMPosted by Dandelowise
But go ahead, insult anyone who isn't 11/11 yet while hiding behind a shadow account because you are too scared to show anyone your actual one.


While never having stepped foot in a mythic raid is entirely beside the point, not being 11/11 is an extremely valid argument here. This issue is not as intricate and perplexing to understand as you are giving yourselves credit for. There isn't an inscrutably complex gear distribution strategy that requires years of mythic raiding experience to understand. In fact, aside from one small exception there is nothing to prevent guilds from carrying on as usual if everyone agrees.

Conversely however, the main argument for ML appears to be that without it you won't be able to finish the raid as quickly as with it. Therefore, the fact that you haven't finished the raid with ML disqualifies your opinion because since you can't even finish the raid with ML the removal of ML has changed nothing for you. Aside from giving you something to blame next time.
05/10/2018 07:12 AMPosted by Omegazor
the removal of ML has changed nothing for you

multiple guilds on my server have been using personal loot all expac to eliminate "Master Loot Bias" and have crippeled themselves as they have struggled to gear themselves in Normal and can barely get through half of heroic. one guild comes to mind in that perhaps 2 of their raiders have gotten really lucky and are geared while most who have been raiding for months now dont even have a 2 piece tier set because RNG has royally screwed them. RNG is an awful system, and as i have experienced, a lot of guilds opt into personal loot and screw themselves over in progression.
05/10/2018 07:12 AMPosted by Omegazor
05/10/2018 05:29 AMPosted by Dandelowise
But go ahead, insult anyone who isn't 11/11 yet while hiding behind a shadow account because you are too scared to show anyone your actual one.


While never having stepped foot in a mythic raid is entirely beside the point, not being 11/11 is an extremely valid argument here. This issue is not as intricate and perplexing to understand as you are giving yourselves credit for. There isn't an inscrutably complex gear distribution strategy that requires years of mythic raiding experience to understand. In fact, aside from one small exception there is nothing to prevent guilds from carrying on as usual if everyone agrees.

Conversely however, the main argument for ML appears to be that without it you won't be able to finish the raid as quickly as with it. Therefore, the fact that you haven't finished the raid with ML disqualifies your opinion because since you can't even finish the raid with ML the removal of ML has changed nothing for you. Aside from giving you something to blame next time.


It's actually not beside the point, if you never raided on a team, then you have 0 clue why ML is beneficial to the raid, therefore, should not even be commenting on something that does not concern you only to troll and upset people. I don't pvp, why would i comment on it? See my point, You don't understand it, don't act like you do.
05/10/2018 07:12 AMPosted by Omegazor
Conversely however, the main argument for ML appears to be that without it you won't be able to finish the raid as quickly as with it.


I'm not even sure if thats the main argument, we have no idea about how tighly raids are going to be tuned in BFA.

For me its more the social issues it creates when you blow up a system that has worked fine for most progression guilds out there and start catering to people who will run a million miles when they found out the level of commitment and how much frustration you need to go through when progressing at the higher levels.

Distributing loot sucks, trying to redistribute personal loot sucks more and will be a real nightmare in a 20-30man raid team even with some added help from the ui and addons.
05/10/2018 07:31 AMPosted by Visera
05/10/2018 07:12 AMPosted by Omegazor
the removal of ML has changed nothing for you

multiple guilds on my server have been using personal loot all expac to eliminate "Master Loot Bias" and have crippeled themselves as they have struggled to gear themselves in Normal and can barely get through half of heroic. one guild comes to mind in that perhaps 2 of their raiders have gotten really lucky and are geared while most who have been raiding for months now dont even have a 2 piece tier set because RNG has royally screwed them. RNG is an awful system, and as i have experienced, a lot of guilds opt into personal loot and screw themselves over in progression.

To be fair, tier pieces are going away and azerite slots don't titanforge. However, that still leaves trinkets that can and can make or break a class.

Weapons also don't titanforge, but some classes get screwed because others don't share their weapons.

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