The state of Marksmanship

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This thread is intended to address, in a comprehensive manner, the current position of Marksmanship in BfA. Since Blizzard has repeatedly said that tuning passes have not yet been done, I'll be specifically focusing on mechanical issues and features, along with proposals to fix them (derived from several of the very long MM threads here and in the Class Development section), though I will also be noting significant tuning issues as well. I'll be modeling this after some of the higher quality feedback posts made recently for other classes/specs.

Core Issues
The baseline rotation works reasonably well. However, it has some issues.
  • Aimed Shot's cast time. Many players feel the base cast time is too long, and causes the entire rotation to feel slow.
  • Unbonused Arcane Shot damage. It feels low, and makes steady/arcane filler feel unrewarding.
  • Rapid Fire as a generator. This prevents it from scaling with mastery, making it fall behind as gear improves, and causes very weird playstyles with focus management, especially with talents.
  • Lack of a power-feeling signature shot. Rapid Fire is arguably the closest to that, but it doesn't have the same powerful feel as a true signature shot (Chimera Shot or Windburst, for example).
  • Precise Shots feels weird in AoE situations. Multi-Shot doesn't consume it, meaning you either have to waste the buff, or weave in single-target Arcane Shot casts during AoE.
  • Sustained AoE feels problematic. Aimed does a LOT of damage with Trick Shot, but once you're out of charges, you're basically reduced to spamming low-damage Multi-Shot.
  • Trick Shots requires 3 targets to activate, but the Rapid Fire effect is clearly intended for 2-target cleave. The limited AoE range on Multi-Shot can at times make triggering Trick Shots an issue even in AoE situations.
  • The RNG in the base rotation is extremely low. The only RNG is the number of Precise Shots charges you gain from Aimed Shot, and that's of very limited impact. Talents that add RNG have extremely low proc rates or no rotational changes associated with them.
  • Many talents in general feel very low impact, either because their effects aren't terribly noticeable or because they have extremely low proc rates. We also have AoE talents competing with ST talents.
  • Our primary cooldown, Trueshot, doesn't feel as impactful as other class CDs, and requires a very specific set of conditions in order to use properly (no Aimed Shot charges, enough time and focus to cast Aimed Shot before you get another charge, RF not coming off cooldown before you get off that first AiS cast).
  • The benefit of Haste feels low. It doesn't affect the cooldown time on Aimed Shot or Rapid Fire (a departure compared to most classes), meaning that increased haste simply increases the percentage of our time filling with Steady and unbonused Arcane. This leaves haste as being pretty darn terrible for us.
  • Lone Wolf is currently not worth using due to damage balance and pet utility
  • Moving between targets while soloing can involve a lot of waiting because our passive focus regen is so slow.


Detailed Analysis
Aimed Shot
The cast time on Aimed Shot is easily one of the most commonly complained about elements of MM in BfA. Players often assert that it makes the rotation feel slow, and leaves the hunter vulnerable to necessary movement (and a loss of the entire cast time so far) for significant length of time. Aimed Shot currently represents the longest non-talented hardcast ability in any DPS rotation in BfA. Chaos Bolt has the same base cast time, but is almost always cast with the 30% reduction from Backdraft. The only two talents that provide similar or longer hardcasts (Destruction's Soul Fire, 4.0s cast, and Fire's Pyroclasm, 4.5s cast) involve intentional talent choices and only occur once every 30-45 seconds in normal gameplay. Marksmanship uses AiS an average of once every 12 seconds. This cast time, along with the dominance of AiS casts and AiS-based effects (Precise Shots, Trick Shots) in both our single-target and AoE rotation, is a very commonly cited source of MM feeling "slow" in BfA.

A common recommendation is to drop the base cast time to 2.5s and adjust Arcane Shot damage to compensate for the slight increase in filler GCDs per minute.
Detailed Analysis (cont.)
Rapid Fire
RF is a very weird shot. Because it is a generator, it doesn't scale at all with our mastery, which means that as gear improves and we get more mastery rating, Rapid Fire will become less and less significant of a damage source compared to Aimed and Arcane. In theory, this could eventually lead to degenerate gameplay where Rapid Fire isn't used at all, though I suspect that the necessary mastery levels for that are out of reach. Regardless, it feels bad for our highest damage (and highest damage per cast time) shot to not scale at all with our mastery.

In addition, RF as a generator feels really bad, and leads to some really clunky gameplay. It's our highest damage and highest damage-per-cast-time ability by a significant margin, and generates a ton of focus, meaning we need to cast it as close to on cooldown as possible. Baseline, and including passive regen, RF generates a total of 29 focus over the channel duration. With Streamline, that jumps to 47. That means that, with Streamline, you need to have less than 53 focus to cast it at all, and less than 44 focus to cast it if you're going to follow up with an Aimed cast (common). Since Aimed Shot plus the follow-up Arcane Shots, and including regen, require you to have up to 48 focus beforehand (if you get 2 Precise Shots stacks), that forces a weird gameplay where the optimal point to cast RF is actually below where you want to keep your focus in preparation for an Aimed Shot.

This gets even worse with Double Tap. Since Double Tap doubles the arrows shot by Rapid Fire, it also doubles the direct focus regen. Since Rapid Fire, even baseline, is the highest damage shot we have and has this increased regen effect, Double Tap should always be used on it (doubly so if you have Streamline, as a Streamline RF does nearly 3 times the damage as AiS). With Streamline and Double Tap talented (arguably the best setup for Double Tap usage), a Double Tap RF generates a total of 79 focus. Double Tap also consumes a GCD, which means you need to have no more than 16 focus when you start the Double Tap -> RF combination.

This weird brinkmanship where we need to be dropping our focus low before RF so we can cast it on CD, and then keep our focus high for Aimed + Arcane combos, really doesn't feel good. Many players are complaining about RF and gameplay it causes. RF also, from a thematic perspective, doesn't really fit the notion of a "Marksman". It's a spray-and-pray ability, which feels weird for a spec otherwise thematically based on slow but high accuracy shots. It also has very little in the way of animation or gameplay differentiation from Barrage, and chaining the two one after another really exemplifies this effect.

The simplest and lowest-impact change to fix RF and its gameplay issues is to turn it into a spender (and reduce its damage to compensate for the mastery scaling). Since baseline RF directly generates 60 focus per minute (or 96 per minute with Streamline), and our standard rotation casts 4-7 Steady Shots per minute, raising our passive regen by 1.0-1.5 per second or raising the focus generated by Steady Shot to 20-25 would offset the focus gain lost from RF. The latter option, increasing the regen on Steady Shot, is the one the majority of posters seem to favor in the other threads, as it also makes the filler rotation feel more impactful (higher Arcane to Steady ratio, even though our total casts of each per minute wouldn't change much). RF as a consumer would also make talents like Double Tap feel better to use with RF, and would allow talents like Steady Focus to actually have a chance (currently we simply don't cast enough Steady to make it worth considering).

An alternative suggestion that is commonly requested is simply removing RF entirely (due to theme and it not being fun and basically being a single-target Barrage), increasing focus regen to compensate, and replacing it with a high-damage moderate-CD signature shot like Chimera Shot, Windburst, or Piercing Shot. This is arguably favored by even more of the active posters in MM threads, but involves more mechanical changes for the spec.
Detailed Analysis (cont.)
Unbonused Arcane Shot
The potency of Precise Shots leaves the filler combination of Steady Shot and unbonused Arcane Shots feeling unrewarding. After accounting for armor, unbonused Arcane does approximately 76% the damage per GCD of Aimed Shot, while Steady Shot does approximately 42%. Accounting for passive regen, Arcane costs 10.5 focus and Steady generates 16. To be focus neutral, one needs 0.656 Steady Shots per Arcane Shot (ie. during filler, 40% of your time is spent casting Steady, 60% casting Arcane). That means your average GCD during Steady/Arcane filler is worth approximately 62.5% as much damage per GCD as Aimed Shot, or 0.3125 AiS's of damage per filler GCD. This means that the "filler" period of the rotation feels very weak compared to our higher-damage shots.

A relatively easy solution to this is to apply a similar multiplier as you did to Vulnerable about midway through Legion: decrease the potency of Precise Shots and increase the base damage of Arcane and/or Steady to compensate. Filler feels more meaningful, without affecting overall DPS.

AoE
MM AoE feels powerful. The feeling of absolutely destroying a pack of mobs with a Trick Shot AiS is hard to match. That said, there are definitely some mechanical issues with MM's AoE right now.

Firstly, Precise Shots doesn't seem to fit at all. It only affects Arcane Shot (despite the tooltip at one point mentioning Multi-Shot), meaning your options in AoE are to either ignore it and waste the effects of the buff, or weave in 1-2 single-target Arcane Shots between Multi/Aimed casts, and neither of those options feel satisfying. The most common suggestion for this is to add Multi-Shot to Precise Shots for AoE situations.

MM also has issues with "downtime" in our AoE rotation. We get an Aimed charge every 12 seconds. Once we're out of Aimed charges, our AoE falls back to simply spamming Multi-Shot (and Steady for focus regen) while we wait for charges, and that feels bad. Barrage can help with this, but it has a 20s cooldown itself, and thus doesn't really alleviate the issue. A common suggestion for this that would also resolve the Precise Shots weirdness is to let Trick Shots also apply to Arcane Shot (with the same effect as Aimed). This would let those Precise Shots Arcanes have use in AoE, and give us a valid filler rotation for AoE.

The last major issue for MM's AoE is the 3-target requirement to activate Trick Shot. This causes a lot of gameplay issues (the limited range on Multi and moving targets can make it an unreliable proc even on 3-4 targets), and makes the 2-target cleave RF version of Trick Shots feel like a trap, since Aimed cleaving to 3 targets deals more damage than RF cleaving to 2. It's also worth pointing out that very few (if any, I can't think of any) specs have such a requirement to trigger their AoE. Even BM's version, Beast Cleave, triggers globally on Multi-Shot cast regardless of the number of targets hit. This is further accented by the fact that Multi-Shot's damage is balanced to equal Arcane's once it's hitting two targets. The 2-target-cleave situation is something that feels like a glaring hole in Marksmanship right now, despite the Trick Shot RF effect expressly being about 2-target cleave. Trick Shots really needs to trigger on 2 targets, or better yet work like BM's Beast Cleave and simply trigger from Multi-Shot period. That would let MM anticipate AoE, getting Trick Shots up and start casting Aimed before the adds spawn or are in range. This would also offset one of the major complaints about MM AoE, that despite its high damage it takes a full 3 GCDs to "spool up".

Rotational RNG
The baseline MM rotation feels extremely formulaic. The only randomness involved is whether you get 1 or 2 Precise Shots buffs from Aimed, and honestly, just globally casting 2 Arcanes after every Aimed, regardless of the buffs, isn't even a DPS loss. There are several talents that provide RNG, but all are either irrelevant to the rotation (Careful Aim, Volley, Lethal Shots) or low proc rate (Lock and Load, Master Marksman). This leaves the rotation with very little in the way of dynamic elements. A spec that avoids Mastery Marksman and Lock and Load is very likely to be able to be defined in a cast sequence macro.

Much of this can be fixed by talent adjustments. Master Marksman has a decent proc rate, but due to the AiS recharge, still has an average proc interval of 40 seconds. Lock and Load has an average proc interval of 60 seconds. Lethal Shots has an average proc interval of 90-150 seconds, depending on whether Streamline is taken or not (since that affects how much you need to cast Steady Shot per minute). Making these procs more common would help with the formulaic feeling.
Detailed Analysis (cont.)
Lone Wolf
Currently, Lone Wolf is tuned to provide almost exactly the same damage as a pet (~10% of our damage). Unfortunately, this means Lone Wolf is massively inferior to having a pet out, because we lose all of the pet utility for no gain (except arguably 10% additional AoE potency). The passive effects from pets are solid, though not really gamebreaking (though they'd probably be enough on their own to make Lone Wolf not used in most cases), but the active pet effects are unmatched. 20% damage reduction or Bloodlust are insane amounts of utility, to the point where even if Lone Wolf was ahead on DPS, hunters would still feel required to use pets in many cases, or resort to summon->use utility->dismiss gimmicks.

So the problem isn't really with Lone Wolf's damage bonus. That's actually right where it needs to be. The problem is that a Lone Wolf hunter has no utility gain from not having that pet out. The most common suggestion is to give Lone Wolf hunters some passive benefit (either a lesser form of the pet passives, like 5% leech, 4% HP, and 4% movement speed, or something else like 8% avoidance) and some form of active utility that can't be used with a pet out. This can either be an ability that simply cannot be used with a pet out, or having our Command Pet ability turn into a personal ability when the pet isn't out. Common suggestions for that utility are Tranq Shot (since it's provided by some of the pet families), Rallying Cry, or an Aspect of the Pack clone of Stampeding Roar. This would position Lone Wolf as a "fourth pet family", as it were, giving it a passive and active that could compete on utility grounds with the pet abilities.

As it stands right now, Lone Wolf simply won't be used by MM hunters, which makes it feel like a complete waste of a passive.

Focus regen during solo gameplay
This is one of the beefs I personally have with MM after playing it on the alpha and beta for a while. Focus regen, rotationally, feels about right for MM. Much of that regen, however, depends on Steady Shot and Rapid Fire (passive regen accounts for 180 of our ~310-320 focus generated per minute). That means that killing a target while low on focus can require waiting a decent number of seconds for passive regen to enable the Aimed->Arcane opener we use while soloing.

That said, anything used to fix this needs to avoid having too much, if any, impact on raiding and instances. My recommendations are to either give us a short regen buff when we (or our pet) land the killing blow on a target, or simply buff our out-of-combat focus regen by 2-3 times. The former rapidly loses usefulness in raid settings due to the difficulty of scoring killing blows, and the latter has no impact on your average boss fight (and can be disabled in M+, if it's an issue). Another alternative is to combine both: when you or your pet land a killing blow on a target, you gain a buff that restores 6 focus per second for 10 seconds while out of combat. Super useful for soloing, completely useless in raids, almost certainly not impactful in M+.
Talent Analysis
Tier 15
Master Marksman, due to being tied to Aimed Shot, has a relatively low effective proc rate, with the average proc interval being 40 seconds. That's an average savings of 22.5 focus, or 2.14 extra Arcane Shots per minute. Arcane deals ~38% the damage of Aimed Shot, and our focus-neutral filler GCD deals ~31.25% the damage of AiS. This means that 2.14 extra Arcanes over the focus-neutral rotation is a benefit of 0.145 AiS's worth of damage per minute.

By comparison, Murder of Crows itself is 141.5% the damage of an AiS and costs the focus of 2 Arcane Shots. That means you're trading 1 filler GCD for Murder, and then trading two Arcanes for filler GCDs, for a net of +1 murder, +1 filler, -2 Arcanes. That's a net of +0.6975 AiS's of damage per minute, nearly 5 times as powerful as Master Marksman.

Part of this is likely the tuning on Murder of Crows, but the low damage gain suggests that Master Marksman at a 100% proc rate wouldn't even be overpowered. In fact, changing Master Marksman to "Precise Shots also reduces the focus cost of affected spells by 100%" would only increase the damage gain from it to 0.72 AiS per minute, right on level with Murder.

I'm going to skip Serpent Sting for now, since it currently does less damage per focus and per global than Arcane Shot (and thus is an unmitigated DPS loss over not using it at all).

Tier 30
Careful Aim has no real rotational impact, but that's fine, because it's never really had rotational impact (though I'd prefer it it were a flat 30% damage bonus rather than RNG). Volley is similarly passive, except AoE flavored (and not currently working). Having two completely passive null-impact talents compete with each other really just means that we'll pick whichever is mathematically better. Since Careful Aim is predominantly a single target talent, and Volley AoE, this likely means swapping the two based on what content we're doing, which is something Blizzard has expressed a wish to move away from.

Explosive Shot is the same skillshot from Legion, except without damage reduction based on how far targets are from the center and with a bit of benefit if it whiffs. Both of these changes are good, but few people are thrilled with the design of Explosion Shot in Legion, and BfA isn't markedly changing the basis of their complaints. Having this be a targeted shot would improve a lot of issues with it.

Tier 45
One of the most common requests I see in hunter threads across the board (all 3 specs) is for Camo to be baseline (arguably without the heal), with an Improved Camo in its place on the talent tree that allows it to have 100% uptime while soloing.

Otherwise, this tier is fairly tame. Downside is that Natural Mending is the only option on this tier with any raid utility, and thus will be the default option for all raiding hunters.

Tier 60
Streamline makes our highest damage shot even more damaging, and strongly buffs effects like RF's Trick Shot effect and Double Tap. However, since it also increases the focus regen, it makes the RF-is-a-generator issues even worse. It also leaves you standing there for even longer waiting on the channel. Lastly, it has negative synergy with Steady Shot based effects like Lethal Shots, since it nearly halves the number of Steady Shots you need to cast per minute.

We simply don't cast Steady Shot enough, especially chain-casting, and the benefit isn't strong enough to justify taking Steady Focus. Shifting the talent so it passively provides the benefit of a single stack at all times in addition to the stacking, or make it simply reduce Steady Shot's cast time by a flat amount at all times, could help, but it's still a poor talent overall. Part of the issue is that it clearly is incentivizing gameplay where you dump all of your focus and then regen with a glut of Steady Shot casts, but Rapid Fire's cooldown invariably gets in the way of the Steady chain anyway, and that makes two talents on that tier (Steady Focus and Streamline) that encourage dumping focus and then rapidly regenerating it.

Hunter's Mark is fairly boring, but effective. A simple, passive, and ignorable 5% damage buff. The focus generation is nice, but considering it costs a global to apply, I doubt it's significant enough to justify dropping it on adds that are about to die even in those niche situations. Wish this talent had more impact or synergy or gameplay.
Tier 75
Neither the nerfed Binding Shot or Born to be Wild has even the slightest chance of competing with Posthaste right now. Frankly, even at a 50% reduction, Born to be Wild probably wouldn't compete, and I struggle to think of any situation where I'd rather have a root, regardless of the cooldown and duration, over a sprint on our Disengage. I seriously doubt if you'll see more than a couple percent of hunters take anything but Posthaste here, and mostly just those that don't know better.

Tier 90
Lethal Shots simply has an atrocious proc rate and an atrocious effect. We cast 4-7 Steady Shots per minute (depending on whether we took Streamline or not), meaning this has an average proc interval of 90-150 seconds. In addition, when it procs, you randomly get either a buff making the next AiS 100% crit, or one making the next RF 100% crit. Because they are locked to the spells, you literally don't change your rotation at all to account for them, they'll simply affect the next time you cast that ability. The RF version can also be wasted, since the buff only lasts 15 seconds, and RF has a 20s cooldown. Changing Lethal Shots to be a single buff that affects the next AiS or RF, whichever you cast first, could at least impact the rotation, since it would encourage avoiding casting AiS if you're not going to cap on charges and RF is about to come off CD (since RF is higher damage and thus a better use of the effect). It would still need a higher proc rate to ever be worth considering, however.

Barrage is really weird to see here. It's an AoE spell on a row that otherwise focuses on single-target effects. I'm not sure yet whether it'll be part of the single-target rotation (though it causes some focus starvation issues if it is). Regardless, it seems logical to swap this with Careful Aim on Tier 30, which is a single-target talent on an otherwise AoE-focused tier. I do like the focus cost reduction and damage boost that Barrage got in BfA, though. It feels powerful again.

Double Tap seems like the only option on this tier for single-target. Combined with Streamline, it provides a massive gain per minute, since you're essentially getting a free RF's worth of damage and focus regen per minute out of the combo. Compared to baseline, Double Tap + Streamline costs you 5 globals per minute and gives you an extra 3.4 RF's worth of damage (~6.3 additional AiS's worth of damage, ~4.74 once you account for the 5 global cost) and an extra 68 focus per minute. Given that every 15 extra focus is 1 filler GCD that turns into an Arcane at a damage gain of 0.0675 AiS's worth of damage, that 68 focus is itself another 0.306 AiS's worth of damage per minute. That's a net of a staggering 5.05 AiS's worth of damage per minute between Streamline and Double Tap.

Tier 100
Calling the Shots is a solid talent, though it feels fairly boring and underwhelming (partly because Trueshot feels a bit underwhelming). It reduces the CD to right around 2 minutes, so nothing to sneeze at. Still doesn't feel amazing.

Lock and Load only grants 1 instant Aimed now, but since that Aimed is a free charge and free Precise Shots stacks, that's probably justified. Has a very low proc rate, though. 3.0 base attack speed means that it procs, on average, every 60 seconds (before haste). On live, we both have more haste and it procs nearly twice as often (8% chance). This contributes to Lock and Load feeling a bit lame in BfA. On the math side, on average it grants one extra Aimed per minute, at the cost of a global, and doubles the damage of 1.5 additional Arcanes (with no global cost, since you'd be casting them as filler anyway). Net is +1.26 AiS's worth of damage per minute. Solid, though not earth shattering.

Piercing Shot is currently tuned to be a complete DPS wash on a single target after the 75% nerf it saw near the end of alpha. For comparison's sake, Piercing Shot deals 0.625 AiS's of damage, and requires 1.91 Steady Shots to offset its focus cost, dealing a net of 1.14 AiS's of damage over 5.32 seconds, for an average of 0.215 AiS's per second. The focus-neutral filler rotation (60% Arcane, 40% Steady) deals 0.3125 AiS's of damage per global, or 0.208 AiS per second. So Piercing Shot adds, a total of 5.32s of +0.006 AiS's per second, or +0.033 AiS's per cast. 30s CD, so net gain is 0.065 AiS's per minute, which is a gain of about 1/4th of a Steady Shot, per minute.

Suggestions
Simple list:
  • Change Master Marksman to apply 100% of the time to all abilities that benefit from Precise Shots. This bumps it to 0.72 AiS per minute, comparable to Murder.
  • Swap Barrage and Careful Aim. AoE against AoE, ST against ST.
  • Massively buff Lethal Shots, and make it apply to both.
  • Buff Careful Aim, remove its RNG.
  • Nerf Double Tap.
  • Buff all 3 on T100, especially Piercing Shot.
Wow. That is quite the feedback...I agree with much of your post, but here are my changes that would make me stop complaining about MM and pretty much enjoy BFA.

(My) Suggestions
Simple list:
1. Chimera Shot;
2. Kill Shot;
3. Glaives; and
4. Stings baseline (with talent that makes targets hit by multi-shot inflicted with serpent sting).
Good god this is beautiful. Keep up the good work mate.
05/22/2018 01:56 PMPosted by Kaedys
MM also has issues with "downtime" in our AoE rotation. We get an Aimed charge every 12 seconds. Once we're out of Aimed charges, our AoE falls back to simply spamming Multi-Shot (and Steady for focus regen) while we wait for charges, and that feels bad. Barrage can help with this, but it has a 20s cooldown itself, and thus doesn't really alleviate the issue. A common suggestion for this that would also resolve the Precise Shots weirdness is to let Trick Shots also apply to Arcane Shot (with the same effect as Aimed). This would let those Precise Shots Arcanes have use in AoE, and give us a valid filler rotation for AoE.


Very nice write up. Covers a lot if not most of MM hunter's concerns.

However, I do like to point out that, as I mentioned in one of my posts, Blizz can always point out "Hey, don't forget you have explosive shot and piercing shot to add to your aoe rotation". With proper number tuning, MM's current (as in beta) sustained aoe might not be bad at all. In fact, it might even very bursty.
05/22/2018 02:20 PMPosted by Stephiki
Wow. That is quite the feedback...I agree with much of your post, but here are my changes that would make me stop complaining about MM and pretty much enjoy BFA.

(My) Suggestions
Simple list:
1. Chimera Shot;
2. Kill Shot;
3. Glaives; and
4. Stings baseline (with talent that makes targets hit by multi-shot inflicted with serpent sting).


And no focus or time to cast any of the above. kekeke
05/22/2018 02:33 PMPosted by Airese
However, I do like to point out that, as I mentioned in one of my posts, Blizz can always point out "Hey, don't forget you have explosive shot and piercing shot to add to your aoe rotation". With proper number tuning, MM's current (as in beta) sustained aoe might not be bad at all. In fact, it might even very bursty.


Oh, I have very little concern about MM's AoE damage itself. It's that our AoE rotation is very frontloaded and then just sorta...stops. Once we drop those Aimed Shots, we're reduced to just spamming Multi until Aimed comes back up.

And the problem with depending on talents for AoE is that we still have single-target talents competing with AoE ones, and many of those AoE ones aren't useful in a single target fight. It also reduces choice is we're tuned around these talents being taken for our AoE rotation to feel good.
05/22/2018 02:20 PMPosted by Stephiki
Wow. That is quite the feedback...I agree with much of your post, but here are my changes that would make me stop complaining about MM and pretty much enjoy BFA.

(My) Suggestions
Simple list:
1. Chimera Shot;
2. Kill Shot;
3. Glaives; and
4. Stings baseline (with talent that makes targets hit by multi-shot inflicted with serpent sting).


As much as I like to see your suggestions be taken seriously by Blizzard, personally, it would get very boring if MM's baseline rotation is exactly the same in every expansion.

One of the things that makes me excited about new expansion is new class rotational changes. But then dull new changes makes me want to switch main. So, it's a risky business.
Honestly. I love the idea of a slow casted attack for my Sniper Unit...

However the current AiS needs a big buff. Either an increase in damage to make it a notable hard-hitting attack at all times (Such as not Chance on hit required and forcing us to use Careful Aim)

This would make the attack feel rewarding to use and worth getting a cast off.

Right now, The chance on hit to do high damage battles with the chance of critical strikes, and then we gotta hope for a double damage crit to achieve this goal.

Cut out the middleman, give us a powerful shot
Great post. Hopefully they're able to revisit the spec soon.
05/22/2018 02:40 PMPosted by Airese
05/22/2018 02:20 PMPosted by Stephiki
Wow. That is quite the feedback...I agree with much of your post, but here are my changes that would make me stop complaining about MM and pretty much enjoy BFA.

(My) Suggestions
Simple list:
1. Chimera Shot;
2. Kill Shot;
3. Glaives; and
4. Stings baseline (with talent that makes targets hit by multi-shot inflicted with serpent sting).


As much as I like to see your suggestions be taken seriously by Blizzard, personally, it would get very boring if MM's baseline rotation is exactly the same in every expansion.

One of the things that makes me excited about new expansion is new class rotational changes. But then dull new changes makes me want to switch main. So, it's a risky business.


You make an excellent point. I also love new things when an expansion drops, and so it is important to balance that consideration. With that in mind, in my 10 years of playing Hunter I always kind of loved it's play style which consisted of the above rotation, and it wasn't until Legion that I first started looking at other classes.

As a side note, I have read a few of your posts now, and you always asked some really well-pointed, constructive questions, and I appreciate that. It helps a lot when many of us are just sort of shooting from the hip trying to figure out what it is that has dulled our class and the best way to change that.
Fantastic feedback post @Kaedys. One of the best I've seen.

Hope this gets seen and read!
05/22/2018 03:19 PMPosted by Chestius
Honestly. I love the idea of a slow casted attack for my Sniper Unit...

However the current AiS needs a big buff. Either an increase in damage to make it a notable hard-hitting attack at all times (Such as not Chance on hit required and forcing us to use Careful Aim)

This would make the attack feel rewarding to use and worth getting a cast off.

Right now, The chance on hit to do high damage battles with the chance of critical strikes, and then we gotta hope for a double damage crit to achieve this goal.

Cut out the middleman, give us a powerful shot


Words cannot express how much I hate this idea. I see multiple issues with such a design:
1. If we were to have Aimed Shot cast time kept the same, but increase the damage, our other spells would need to be nerfed in order for our spec to do reasonable levels of damage.
2. We have so much of our damage already tied to Aimed Shot that increasing the damage output would make all of our other shots (perhaps barring RF until high mastery) feel pointless and be absolutely nothing other than filler until Aimed Shot is off cooldown again.
3. PvP; people are already talking about being able to take other players from 100-0 simply by casting Aimed Shot, Arcane Shot, Arcane Shot, Rapid Fire. Honestly, how long do you think the damage of Aimed Shot would last in PvP if it was capable of hitting an opponent for 60-75% of their health in a single global. Sure, a 3 second cast isn't faceroll easy to get off, but if Aimed Shot had its damage increased, all we would need is one lucky (or skilled) Aimed Shot and it's game-over for the opponent.
I will touch on the mess it would create if Aimed Shot had to be reduced in PvP while the rest of our spells had to be buffed or left ignored, which would result in Marksmanship being unplayed and unviable in PvP.
4. Having Aimed Shot deal more damage may make it feel more rewarding, but it would not help with the main issue that most people have with the spec; the slow-down in playstyle caused by stopping for 3 seconds to cast Aimed Shot makes the rotation feeling grating and contradictory.
5. Aimed Shot is already the basis of our rotation; it is currently the only thing that makes our AoE feel like we are doing anything other than tickling the mob packs. It also has a careful aim component baked into the shot, and has synergy (albeit oftentimes not great synergy) with five different talents.
I'm trying to work out why such a high damaging/impacting shot doesn't feel impactful enough for you. If it had any more impact we would end up with the issues presented by 1 and 2.
@Kaedys; fantastic post mate. There is nothing in there that I would argue with at all. I suppose all that remains to be seen is if Blizzard decide to heed the feedback provided by hunters, and if they do, whether the changes they make will fix or worsen the complaints we have with the spec. I do know that if Blizzard decide to ignore us for yet another expansion, it would be a huge mistake for them, at least financially.
[/code]Focus regen during solo gameplay[/b]
This is one of the beefs I personally have with MM after playing it on the alpha and beta for a while. Focus regen, rotationally, feels about right for MM. Much of that regen, however, depends on Steady Shot and Rapid Fire (passive regen accounts for 180 of our ~310-320 focus generated per minute). That means that killing a target while low on focus can require waiting a decent number of seconds for passive regen to enable the Aimed->Arcane opener we use while soloing.

That said, anything used to fix this needs to avoid having too much, if any, impact on raiding and instances. My recommendations are to either give us a short regen buff when we (or our pet) land the killing blow on a target, or simply buff our out-of-combat focus regen by 2-3 times. The former rapidly loses usefulness in raid settings due to the difficulty of scoring killing blows, and the latter has no impact on your average boss fight (and can be disabled in M+, if it's an issue). Another alternative is to combine both: when you or your pet land a killing blow on a target, you gain a buff that restores 6 focus per second for 10 seconds while out of combat. Super useful for soloing, completely useless in raids, almost certainly not impactful in M+ [code]


Suggestion to fix this problem could be make hunters mark BASELINE. Why not it’s been an iconic ability of hunters since vanilla. Also take it off the gcd and let you use it from Camo.

Getting killing blows with hunters mark gives you 40 focus just enough for after you’re done killing a mob to open up on another mob with aim shot.

It feels extremely weird killing a mob and standing waiting around For focus before aim shotting a new mob because you don’t want to give up your 50% dmg bonus on ais for not yet attacking and careful aim proc by opening up with a generator.

So ya baseline hunters mark would fix the focus issues moving from 1 mob to another
Btw this post is so well done and exactly what thousands of players have been voicing about mm hopefully devs can see what the community actually thinks of mm and are willing to revisit their work

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