The state of Marksmanship

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
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05/28/2018 07:42 AMPosted by Stephiki
Chimera/Windburst
Kill Shot
Stings Baseline with cool interactions
Glaives


May I just ask what your attachment is to Glaives? I understand that it was an okay talent (great in PvP for having baked in slow that could be applied to multiple enemies) to supplement our rotation back in the glory days of hunters, but compared to your other requests, it's incredibly lacklustre.
Chimera/Windburst was exciting to use even without synergy with our other spells, simply for being a heavy hitting shot without a long cast time.
Kill Shot was incredibly fun and satisfying to use, and changed up our rotation during execute phases.
Stings gave us something to watch other than cool down timers, and in their best days interacted fantastically with Chimera Shot.
Glaives was just an average damage "shot" with a very low impact slow and was never part of our core rotation. Why do you keep putting it in your posts?
05/28/2018 08:28 AMPosted by Tyranastus
05/28/2018 07:42 AMPosted by Stephiki
Chimera/Windburst
Kill Shot
Stings Baseline with cool interactions
Glaives


May I just ask what your attachment is to Glaives? I understand that it was an okay talent (great in PvP for having baked in slow that could be applied to multiple enemies) to supplement our rotation back in the glory days of hunters, but compared to your other requests, it's incredibly lacklustre.
Chimera/Windburst was exciting to use even without synergy with our other spells, simply for being a heavy hitting shot without a long cast time.
Kill Shot was incredibly fun and satisfying to use, and changed up our rotation during execute phases.
Stings gave us something to watch other than cool down timers, and in their best days interacted fantastically with Chimera Shot.
Glaives was just an average damage "shot" with a very low impact slow and was never part of our core rotation. Why do you keep putting it in your posts?


Because the fantasy of elven hunters, especially bight elves, is the damn glaives.

The spell looks good.
05/28/2018 08:28 AMPosted by Tyranastus
05/28/2018 07:42 AMPosted by Stephiki
Chimera/Windburst
Kill Shot
Stings Baseline with cool interactions
Glaives


May I just ask what your attachment is to Glaives? I understand that it was an okay talent (great in PvP for having baked in slow that could be applied to multiple enemies) to supplement our rotation back in the glory days of hunters, but compared to your other requests, it's incredibly lacklustre.
Chimera/Windburst was exciting to use even without synergy with our other spells, simply for being a heavy hitting shot without a long cast time.
Kill Shot was incredibly fun and satisfying to use, and changed up our rotation during execute phases.
Stings gave us something to watch other than cool down timers, and in their best days interacted fantastically with Chimera Shot.
Glaives was just an average damage "shot" with a very low impact slow and was never part of our core rotation. Why do you keep putting it in your posts?


Three reasons:

1. It does look cool. I liked it.

2. SV Hunter's already have it so Blizzard has the code, and doesn't need to spend a bunch of time working on it.

3. And this is the real reason, it was an interesting damage/utility ability, and having several abilities like this helped to make our rotation more dynamic and engaging. You are definitely correct, Glaives were not part of our core rotation, but they offered a slow, which was nice in PvP, and if there were 3+ targets in PvE then you would use it.

Abilities like this require just a tiny bit more thought and situational awareness, and I think Glaives is a good example of this. I don't like Blizzard's current design philosophy which is essentially to only give us abilities that are part of our core rotation. It was fun and more interesting when we used to have like 10 damage abilities, and they were used depending on the situation.

However, it's worth noting that I agree with you about them not being as essential as the other tools, but I wanted to answer your question and explain why I liked them.
Sometimes I don't quite understand the feedback provided in the forum.

05/28/2018 10:16 AMPosted by Stephiki
And this is the real reason, it was an interesting damage/utility ability, and having several abilities like this helped to make our rotation more dynamic and engaging.


What's the difference between having glaives compare to, for example, to the active talents that are already in beta BfA? glaive is just like any other cd-based talents already in beta. If glaives truly makes our rotation more dynamic and engaging, then any other cd-based talent accomplishes the same thing. Pick all the active talents in beta BfA, you will get more dynamic and more engaging rotation.

05/28/2018 10:16 AMPosted by Stephiki
Abilities like this require just a tiny bit more thought and situational awareness, and I think Glaives is a good example of this.


In the same breathe, isn't Legion or BfA explosive shot (ExS) provides the same "tiny bit more thought and situation awareness"? Maybe, I can even go further by saying ExS needs more situation awareness than glaive?

05/28/2018 12:32 AMPosted by Lekai
Serpent sting baseline. AiS on a target with serpent sting causes the sting to explode in a cloud of poison dealing an additional 30% dmg to all targets within 8 yards of explosion for the remaining duration of the sting.


That's a passive ability suggestion and honestly, MM hunter has plenty or even more than enough AoE damage options available via talents.

I get it. I miss Kill Shot. I miss glaive toss. But I think in order for Blizzard to actually listen to any constructive feedback is to provide a very sound and very strong reasons why. Voicing my own personal preferences a couple of times is, in my own opinion, good enough. If Blizzard listens to it, great. If not, I move on. If I keep whining and complaining about the same thing over and over and over and over again, it will only make me look stupid.


What's the difference between having glaives compare to, for example, to the active talents that are already in beta BfA? glaive is just like any other cd-based talents already in beta. If glaives truly makes our rotation more dynamic and engaging, then any other cd-based talent accomplishes the same thing. Pick all the active talents in beta BfA, you will get more dynamic and more engaging rotation.

[/quote]

I don't think you played Hunter in Legion if you don't understand the difference between "having an ability" and "having the option to have an ability."

Sure, we have Black Arrow, but Lock and Load is so superior it is never used.

Sure, we have Explosive Shot but Patient Sniper is more optimal in ever single situation.

Sure, we have Piercing Shot, but what's that, oh yeah, Trick Shot is simply better.

What you don't understand is that talents are not active, they do not exist, when they are worse (and in many cases much worse) than passives.

This is why we need abilities baseline, and why you need to get off the forums if you aren't constructive and trying to get our class back to where it used to be. Blues are currently commentating and providing in-depth feedback to specific classes and roles and you bet your !@# I'm going to keep posting in the hopes that we get a little feedback and love for MM hunters.

What we want is a signature shot, our old execute back, and a few abilities baseline so that we no longer have to worry about picking what's fun, with what's optimal. Giving us Serpent Sting back means nothing if we are never going to pick it. And that goes for every other talent because right now everything focuses on AiS, and so any talent or ability that doesn't build off that is sub-optimal.
05/28/2018 12:51 PMPosted by Stephiki
I don't think you played Hunter in Legion if you don't understand the difference between "having an ability" and "having the option to have an ability."


What is playing a hunter in Legion got to do with me understanding the difference?

05/28/2018 12:51 PMPosted by Stephiki
This is why we need abilities baseline, and why you need to get off the forums if you aren't constructive and trying to get our class back to where it used to be.


In BfA, we do have abilities that are baseline. You might not like them but they do exists.

I gave my constructive feedback since Alpha and I am not going to repeat myself here. There is a line between giving a constructive feedback and whining about the same thing over and over and over again all over the forum. I bet a lot of hunters have read about you wanting the same previous/old abilities in a lot of different threads/posts. Believe me, Blizzard read your posts and they are well aware what the community as a whole prefers.

I am sure that you won't like it if someone keeps bugging you over and over and over again and annoys you.
05/28/2018 01:42 PMPosted by Airese

I am sure that you won't like it if someone keeps bugging you over and over and over again and annoys you.


I have no problem with people being vocal if they are trying to Flag Blizzards attention and trying to highlight problems/solutions they see in the spec.

But you are right, your insistence on not helping the class but flaming posters over and over is petty annoying
I like choices in talent builds. I think part of the fun is picking a style that fits you and being able to play what you enjoy.

Speed/movement style and Turret/sniper style builds should all be viable options. The talent tree should be built well enough to support a build going down either path or a mix of them - and be somewhat viable.

And pets. Oh my gawd. Please do something to fix them. Pathing issues, threat issues, durability/health issues. Hunter pets are turrible as tanks right now.

And after that fix the damn animation on Rapid Fire. I love the skill, but the animation is seizure inducing.
05/28/2018 05:24 PMPosted by Sevenshots
I like choices in talent builds. I think part of the fun is picking a style that fits you and being able to play what you enjoy.

Speed/movement style and Turret/sniper style builds should all be viable options. The talent tree should be built well enough to support a build going down either path or a mix of them - and be somewhat viable.

And pets. Oh my gawd. Please do something to fix them. Pathing issues, threat issues, durability/health issues. Hunter pets are turrible as tanks right now.

And after that fix the damn animation on Rapid Fire. I love the skill, but the animation is seizure inducing.


This not every one wants to play a slow methodical sniper give ya talents to change up play styles a lot of us prefer the fast pace on the move marksman
05/28/2018 06:10 PMPosted by Sürval
05/28/2018 05:24 PMPosted by Sevenshots
I like choices in talent builds. I think part of the fun is picking a style that fits you and being able to play what you enjoy.

Speed/movement style and Turret/sniper style builds should all be viable options. The talent tree should be built well enough to support a build going down either path or a mix of them - and be somewhat viable.

And pets. Oh my gawd. Please do something to fix them. Pathing issues, threat issues, durability/health issues. Hunter pets are turrible as tanks right now.

And after that fix the damn animation on Rapid Fire. I love the skill, but the animation is seizure inducing.


This not every one wants to play a slow methodical sniper give ya talents to change up play styles a lot of us prefer the fast pace on the move marksman


They are not even far off of what could be a fun spec. Lower the cast times to Legion speed and increase focus regen and we'd probably be good. Aimed back to 2 sec and steady 1.5 like windburst. I'd rather an instant shot instead of rapid fire but if it's too late then make it 2 sec also.
Extremely good feedback fro the OP. It not only addresses core mechanical interactions that plague the class but also reflects the position of the community. I would strongly recommend Blizzard adopt these recommendations into their future builds for MM hunter.
Is there any hope left of a Blue giving us even a hint of "Hey Hunters, we got your back. Thanks for the positive and constructive feedback, and we'll be sure to hash this problem out, daddi-o."

I'd kill to have a dev call me Daddi-o.
Fingers crossed for a blue post or some changes in this week's build.
I did like WoD marksman immensely and I miss it. It was very squishy but it was fast dynamic and had a very good flow.
So uh, have we mostly given up then?
05/30/2018 09:38 AMPosted by Lekai
So uh, have we mostly given up then?


Well, until they give us an update of some sorts then yea I guess I have for the time being. I've tested it. Gave my feedback. Read others feedback. A lot of it is much better than mine. Not really anything left to do but wait for changes at this point.
05/30/2018 09:55 AMPosted by Eojj
05/30/2018 09:38 AMPosted by Lekai
So uh, have we mostly given up then?


Well, until they give us an update of some sorts then yea I guess I have for the time being. I've tested it. Gave my feedback. Read others feedback. A lot of it is much better than mine. Not really anything left to do but wait for changes at this point.


Yeah, I'm just going to keep making threads until something is done. No way am I waiting halfway through ANOTHER expansion for the ONLY ARCHER SPEC to feel playable again.
Great thread, bumping to keep Mm issues front and center.
Hey everyone,

I wanted to post a few things about Marksmanship, including a few things in the works.

Lone Wolf's damage at 10% may not be the final number. I changed it from 18% to 10% a while back so it being at 18% and such a big DPS swing between pet and no pet would stop dominating the conversation about Lone Wolf. Tuning will happen.

Aimed Shot's charge recovery time will be reduced by haste in a future build.

Rapid Fire's visual effects are not final.
Rapid Fire will bounce to 1 additional target when Trick Shots is active in a future build.

Sniper Training (Mastery) will be changed to affect all of your shots instead of only Focus spending shots in a future build so things like Rapid Fire are not left behind as gear progresses.

RNG - there's a lot of talents with randomness in them. We hear the feedback that you feel things are too random. Some things will probably change to be less random in general, others will have some adjustments made to how they proc to prevent the really bad luck streaks from being a thing.

As always, thanks for the feedback both in this thread and others created.
What about the cast time? It’s perhaps the worst part of the spec currently :/

(Also, thanks for replying and giving us some hope, I know a lot of us !@#$% vocally but it’s because we’re invested and care about his game being great. You popping in here and actually adding some thoughts means a lot to many of us.)

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