The state of Marksmanship

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06/07/2018 03:41 AMPosted by Sürval
And it’s not the second most mobile spec

Bm hunter
Fire mage
Aff lock
Are all more mobile


Nope. Affliction and Fire both suffer DPS losses when moving, pretty significant ones actually. Affliction loses any ability to use UA or Shadowbolt/Drain Soul, and even refreshing DoTs before the pandemic range is also a small but non-zero DPS loss. Fire mages have full mobility via Scorch, but also at a DPS loss, since Scorch is less potent than Fireball and prevents Hot Streak proc chains (since it has no travel time).

So yes, they can both move, but both take a DPS loss to do so. Both of these specs suffer less movement than, say, Shadow or Elemental, but they definitely aren't anywhere close to MM. MM doesn't suffer and DPS loss in most movement situation. After casting AiS, MM has a minimum of 9 seconds and up to 18 seconds to move around before it suffers any DPS loss at all, because the only DPS loss MM can see due to movement is capping AiS charges (or interrupting an AiS cast, but every ranged except BM has to deal with that, and most of those things you can anticipate via boss timers).

We really are the 2nd most mobile spec in BfA, behind only BM (who has zilch for movement restrictions). Every other ranged, except BM, has the same issues with losing DPS when they have to interrupt their casts, except that most of them spend closer to 80% of their time casting, rather than our 25%, and thus are at much greater risk of that interrupt, and have far fewer options for planning ahead for that movement. And not a single one of the true casters can move for more than a global or three without losing DPS, while MM gets 6-12 globals of movement flexibility without any DPS loss.

So no, we're not turrety. As Tyranastus alluded to, trying to assert that we're immobile or turrety is just going to make Blizzard ignore you and your feedback, because it's blatantly false. Like, we don't need to be "turrety" for an AiS cast time reduction to make sense. That's justified purely off the pacing of the rotation and/or the difficulty of getting a full cast off in PvP.


Thank you for posting that. You saved me the time and energy of logging onto beta to get correct spell names and make sure I was right when I said that MM is the second most mobile spec.
My main message intent may have been lost in the vitriol of my original message; if people keep using hyperbole and making statements that are factually and practically false will result in us being ignored by Blizzard and nothing positive being done. If people have complaints about the way the spec plays, they really need to stop saying that we are immobile/turrets and actually give some actionable feedback.
Yes, we will lose dps if we are forced to interrupt our AiS cast by moving/enemies dying/whatever, but that's no different to any other caster in the game except for Beast Mastery.
Yes, Aimed Shot feels too long, especially when you factor in that our AoE is tied to casting Multi-Shot before Aimed Shot to do the bulk of our AoE damage. But that has nothing to do with us being immobile, that simply requires an AiS cast time reduction, just like we've been asking for with the 2.5 sec cast time requests.
Yes, Aimed Shot is the longest core rotational casted ability in the game. Once again, we are hoping that will be aided by the spell being reduced to 2.5 seconds, but it still doesn't change the fact that people are exaggerating about the whole spec feeling like a turret.
There are numerous reasons that Aimed Shot needs to have its cast time reduced to 2.5 seconds, the spec feeling immobile is not one of them!

I used to tell Kaedys off for posting as aggressively as I have been lately; I'm actually really understanding why this happens. I am just sick of seeing posts so loaded up with trash that no one with an ounce of realism, especially Blizzard, would take seriously.
I'm confused why streamline doesn't actually make the spec more streamlined. It seems like it should make rapidfire instant cast instead of a longer channel. It could even turn it into a focus spender instead of a focus generator so we get the feel of old marksman back.
06/07/2018 08:19 AMPosted by Tyranastus
Yes, Aimed Shot feels too long, especially when you factor in that our AoE is tied to casting Multi-Shot before Aimed Shot to do the bulk of our AoE damage.


Barrage is proving to be really strong in dungeons and raids. Trick Shot is a decent freebie for some cleave, but let's not act like you won't have Barrage if you're in a dungeon or on a boss with adds.

06/07/2018 09:52 AMPosted by Jackson
I'm confused why streamline doesn't actually make the spec more streamlined. It seems like it should make rapidfire instant cast instead of a longer channel.


Why would Rapid Fire every be instant?
06/07/2018 07:24 AMPosted by Sevenshots
I remain genuinely puzzled about people who choose to use AiS in their rotation right now. It's going to have to get some kind of buff or cast time change in the future, so I'm not worried about it yet.


I can't comment much on PvP, but from an analytical perspective, removing AiS from your rotation is just under a 20% overall DPS loss. So sure, go ahead and ignore it if you want, but don't try to suggest that doing so is in any way a viable strategy.

Barrage is proving to be really strong in dungeons and raids. Trick Shot is a decent freebie for some cleave, but let's not act like you won't have Barrage if you're in a dungeon or on a boss with adds.


This right here is why I want Barrage moved to the level 30 tier alongside Volley and Explosive Shot. All 3 are AoE talents with little use on single target, and I hate that Double Tap competes directly with Barrage. If this goes live as-is, we're gunna see yet again a tier that has to be changed between trash and bosses (or simply suck on one of the two, if you don't swap). BfA Barrage is amazing, and I don't want to be locked out of it simply because it's useless on single target and competes with very strong single-target options.

06/07/2018 08:19 AMPosted by Tyranastus
I used to tell Kaedys off for posting as aggressively as I have been lately; I'm actually really understanding why this happens. I am just sick of seeing posts so loaded up with trash that no one with an ounce of realism, especially Blizzard, would take seriously.


/giggle. I told you, it gets to you after a while. Even Adreaver seems to be getting frustrated and just kinda giving up a bit.

And frankly, I don't even understand it. Blizzard put a lot of time and effort into completely rebuilding MM for BfA, and they did so because their prior rebuild for Legion completely failed to jive like they thought it would. You would think they would try to validate that investment of dev resources by actually making sure MM (and SV and Demo) are going to be in a really solid place that won't need much iteration thereafter. Like, there are other specs that are in such a rock-solid place that, aside from some minor talent shuffling to integrate some artifact abilities, they saw basically no changes at all from Legion to BfA (Fire mage, Frost DK, Feral druid, and Windwalker monk all come to mind).

MM, SV, and Demo, all of which were redesigned in 7.0, are being redesigned again. And yet none of them is getting the attention and iteration and communication that such a design mulligan mandates. I'm literally baffled as to why Blizzard is spending so much time iterating on a few specs that didn't actually see that many changes and aren't really in a bad place on gameplay, yet almost completely ignoring the 3 specs they completely rebuilt from the ground up for BfA.
06/07/2018 10:05 AMPosted by Comfybundles


Why would Rapid Fire every be instant?


what's more rapid than being instant?
mm on bfa plays stronger than legion imo.
i never have liked barrage and i spec around it.
useless talent with all the bugs since mop they've never fixed it.
06/07/2018 07:11 AMPosted by Kaedys
So yes, they can both move, but both take a DPS loss to do so. Both of these specs suffer less movement than, say, Shadow or Elemental, but they definitely aren't anywhere close to MM. MM doesn't suffer any DPS loss in most movement situation. After casting AiS, MM has a minimum of 9 seconds and up to 18 seconds to move around before it suffers any DPS loss at all, because the only DPS loss MM can see due to movement is capping AiS charges (or interrupting an AiS cast, but every ranged except BM has to deal with that, and most of those things you can anticipate via boss timers).


I think the issue is that with the hard lockdown on ability usage it's not that we're turrety and need to stand still, but that standing still feels more painful than the current Legion stutter-stepping movement which, when played right is pretty damn mobile already with the right amount of haste. I can currently fire off an arcane while moving, stop for 1.7 seconds to cast aimed shot, move out of fire and cast another aimed shot and then an arcane shot or two before having to plant myself to cast aimed.

The issue though, is that at my worst I'm generally standing in bad for like .5 seconds tops but in the BFA iteration I'm often finding myself facetanking or standing in bad for upwards of 1 to 1.5 seconds to get that aimed off because I'm already 'pot committed' to the cast and losing a full second of casting feels INCREDIBLY BAD.

So while I'm not going to necessarily advocate for a fully mobile spec over a fun and interesting core rotation, the bfa spec 'feels' less mobile than my legion MM because I often don't feel like I can respond to something changing in the environment around me as rapidly.

Mobs come at me while I'm casting aimed shot? Not gonna move, I'm gonna facetank for a second to make sure I get that sweet high damage and up to two buffed to !@#$ arcane shots off. Mob breaks concussive and is running at me but I'm in the middle of rapid fire? Just going to channel for another 2.5 seconds before throwing out a trap.

The problem isn't "standing still for 3s." The problem is "Can't react for 2s waaaaaaay too %^-*!@#ed often."

Kill shot be damned, not using aimed shot be damned, rapid fire be damned, I just want shorter windows where I feel 'locked down' or 'pot committed' to a bad cast because surviving as a hunter in pvp is about being mobile and keeping range and those windows of 'locked down time' feel god damned miserable in what appears to be a very pvp centric expansion.

Not to mention the core rotation is just simplistic and dull. I don't feel I'm ever reacting to anything outside of "move, something is eating your $%^-ing face off." and that feels BAD.
06/07/2018 12:22 PMPosted by Myrlithis
mm on bfa plays stronger than legion imo.


No, it doesn't. It's substantially more boring and faceroll and nothing really ever changes up your rotation outside of casting multishot and then getting 2/3 of the way through an aimed cast as your target dies.

The spec is completely horrible and I'd pay a small fortune just to keep the legion design over this rubbish.
06/07/2018 07:11 AMPosted by Kaedys
06/07/2018 03:41 AMPosted by Sürval
And it’s not the second most mobile spec

Bm hunter
Fire mage
Aff lock
Are all more mobile


Nope. Affliction and Fire both suffer DPS losses when moving, pretty significant ones actually. Affliction loses any ability to use UA or Shadowbolt/Drain Soul, and even refreshing DoTs before the pandemic range is also a small but non-zero DPS loss. Fire mages have full mobility via Scorch, but also at a DPS loss, since Scorch is less potent than Fireball and prevents Hot Streak proc chains (since it has no travel time).

So yes, they can both move, but both take a DPS loss to do so. Both of these specs suffer less movement than, say, Shadow or Elemental, but they definitely aren't anywhere close to MM. MM doesn't suffer any DPS loss in most movement situation. After casting AiS, MM has a minimum of 9 seconds and up to 18 seconds to move around before it suffers any DPS loss at all, because the only DPS loss MM can see due to movement is capping AiS charges (or interrupting an AiS cast, but every ranged except BM has to deal with that, and most of those things you can anticipate via boss timers).

We really are the 2nd most mobile spec in BfA, behind only BM (who has zilch for movement restrictions). Every other ranged, except BM, has the same issues with losing DPS when they have to interrupt their casts, except that most of them spend closer to 80% of their time casting, rather than our 25%, and thus are at much greater risk of that interrupt, and have far fewer options for planning ahead for that movement. And not a single one of the true casters can move for more than a global or three without losing DPS, while MM gets 6-12 globals of movement flexibility without any DPS loss.

So no, we're not turrety. As Tyranastus alluded to, trying to assert that we're immobile or turrety is just going to make Blizzard ignore you and your feedback, because it's blatantly false. Like, we don't need to be "turrety" for an AiS cast time reduction to make sense. That's justified purely off the pacing of the rotation and/or the difficulty of getting a full cast off in PvP.


Sorry youre wrong i play both of them and they do feel more mobile and fast paced than mm. Fire mage can be completely mobile until they are out of stacks instant pyros thats a ton of mobility they have a baseline lock and load basically that procs WAY more. then they have to stand and hard cast fast fire balls not 3 second pyroblasts.

Aff lock spends much more time applying dots and refreshing dots to all its targets which you guessed it is instant cast and can be done moving. UA is a much shorter cast time than AIS so easier to side step mechanics in between them.

Sorry MM is not mobile with a 3 sec cast it will get punished heavily
MM is not immobile in BfA.

Aimed Shot, and only Aimed Shot, is immobile.

The kit overall has some issues:

  • Aimed Shot cast time is slow.
    - This is easily addressed either by reducing the base cast time to 2.5s, or by allowing Steady Shot casts to reduce the cast time of your next Aimed Shot by 0.25s, stacking up to 4 times.
  • Damage tuning across the board is way out of whack.
    - Duh, it's beta. Damage numbers will be tuned as beta progresses. Don't expect proper tuning until prepatch at the earliest, and probably we won't have firm numbers until the week after raids open and Blizzard has some real data.
  • Talent distribution is wonky and apples/oranges.
    - Master Marksman is a Focus talent on a DoT row, change it to something else.
    - Swap Careful Aim and Barrage.
    - Change Explosive Shot to function like KJBW trinket, with the option to explode early if desired.
    - Change Trailblazer to fall off on damage taken, not damage dealt.
    - Baseline Camouflage as it is now, talented Improved Camouflage that gives you perma-stealth out of combat, and lets you use it in combat for 8s of invisibility and healing 2% per second, possibly with a longer cooldown (2 mins?) when used in combat.
    - Revert Steady Focus to the current live incarnation - When you cast Steady Shot twice in a row, you increase your Focus regeneration by X% for 12 seconds. Let this apply to both active and passive gains during that period.
    - Change Lethal Shots to affect the next Aimed Shot or Rapid Fire from the same buff.
    - Buff the proc rate of Lock and Load or front load the proc rate when entering combat so it doesn't feel like you have no 100 talent 95% of the time.
    - Reduce the CD of Piercing Shot so it becomes a centerpiece of the rotation, and properly tune the damage.
  • Lone Wolf. The current tuning is fantastic, but losing 10% Leech/Health/Speed and the pet actives for zero gains is not.
Other than those issues, if the spec went live tomorrow as it is on the beta right now, I would be happy. Even with those issues, it's no worse off than the live iteration, it just has different problems.
Still sat dump Piercing Shot for Chimera or Kill Shot.
Just a note, I know datamining isn't done yet, but aimed cd has gone down to 10 seconds. I took off some haste gear and it stayed at 10. So it looks like it's still not affected by haste, but they lowered the cd, which makes us cast aimed more often, which means we're more immobile.
06/07/2018 12:57 PMPosted by Sürval
Sorry MM is not mobile with a 3 sec cast it will get punished heavily


Surval is going to believe what he/she wants to. I tried. You guys tried. We are not going to be able to change his/her perception. Time to move on to more pressing issues MM has.
06/07/2018 02:13 PMPosted by Airese
06/07/2018 12:57 PMPosted by Sürval
Sorry MM is not mobile with a 3 sec cast it will get punished heavily


Surval is going to believe what he/she wants to. I tried. You guys tried. We are not going to be able to change his/her perception. Time to move on to more pressing issues MM has.


10 sec ais cd stated above ^ and will soon be reduced by haste. We will be standing still casting 3 second aim shots Alot how can anyone think that is mobile and fast paced LOL. go play wotlk mm and youll see mobile/fast paced mm
It is reduced by haste on beta right now. It was ~8 seconds for me with trueshot up.

The only other change I can see is the mastery and trick shots change, nothing whatsoever on the talents to smooth out the RNG. In fact remarkably few class changes across the board, which seems odd considering the volume of Blizzard posts saying that we'll see things in the "next build".
06/07/2018 02:26 PMPosted by Sürval
06/07/2018 02:13 PMPosted by Airese
...

Surval is going to believe what he/she wants to. I tried. You guys tried. We are not going to be able to change his/her perception. Time to move on to more pressing issues MM has.


10 sec ais cd stated above ^ and will soon be reduced by haste. We will be standing still casting 3 second aim shots Alot how can anyone think that is mobile and fast paced LOL. go play wotlk mm and youll see mobile/fast paced mm


Lich king MM was much more landlocked (stutter stepping for auto shots every 2.5-3 seconds)

10 sec recharge changes our mobility from 25% stuck to 30%, which is still significantly higher than any other spec than bm.

Other changes of note:
They implemented mastery for all shots, and lowered mastery benefit to compensate. Multi/steady hit harder but arcane hits much less now. Dunno if that's just the mastery or if they nerfed arcane. Feels like they nerfed arcane, honestly. Seems like they're doing everything possible to make people use aimed.
06/07/2018 02:34 PMPosted by Laotl
It is reduced by haste on beta right now. It was ~8 seconds for me with trueshot up.

The only other change I can see is the mastery and trick shots change, nothing whatsoever on the talents to smooth out the RNG. In fact remarkably few class changes across the board, which seems odd considering the volume of Blizzard posts saying that we'll see things in the "next build".


You're right, guess i didn't have enough haste gear to take off to make a difference. It is affected by haste.
06/07/2018 02:40 PMPosted by Totemchucker
06/07/2018 02:26 PMPosted by Sürval
...

10 sec ais cd stated above ^ and will soon be reduced by haste. We will be standing still casting 3 second aim shots Alot how can anyone think that is mobile and fast paced LOL. go play wotlk mm and youll see mobile/fast paced mm


Lich king MM was much more landlocked (stutter stepping for auto shots every 2.5-3 seconds)

10 sec recharge changes our mobility from 25% stuck to 30%, which is still significantly higher than any other spec than bm.

Other changes of note:
They implemented mastery for all shots, and lowered mastery benefit to compensate. Multi/steady hit harder but arcane hits much less now. Dunno if that's just the mastery or if they nerfed arcane. Feels like they nerfed arcane, honestly. Seems like they're doing everything possible to make people use aimed.


except all of your abilities were instant cast.
just noticed steady shot does more damage than unbuffed arcane shot now.

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