The state of Marksmanship

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
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06/07/2018 01:33 PMPosted by Adreaver
Aimed Shot cast time is slow.
- This is easily addressed either by reducing the base cast time to 2.5s, or by allowing Steady Shot casts to reduce the cast time of your next Aimed Shot by 0.25s, stacking up to 4 times.


I think it would be better if steady reduced the time by .5 for the same reduction but with less steady shots required since it's very rare that you'll cast 4 in a row, even when on the move.

06/07/2018 01:33 PMPosted by Adreaver
- Change Explosive Shot to function like KJBW trinket, with the option to explode early if desired.


I adore this idea. This is how it should have been all along.

06/07/2018 01:33 PMPosted by Adreaver
- Change Trailblazer to fall off on damage taken, not damage dealt.


Brilliant, love it.

06/07/2018 01:33 PMPosted by Adreaver
- Revert Steady Focus to the current live incarnation - When you cast Steady Shot twice in a row, you increase your Focus regeneration by X% for 12 seconds. Let this apply to both active and passive gains during that period.


With a change to having steady reduce aimed shot cast time, this would make this a very serious contender on this row.

06/07/2018 01:33 PMPosted by Adreaver
- Change Lethal Shots to affect the next Aimed Shot or Rapid Fire from the same buff.


Why is this not already like this? Seriously. Common sense and all.

06/07/2018 01:33 PMPosted by Adreaver
Lone Wolf. The current tuning is fantastic, but losing 10% Leech/Health/Speed and the pet actives for zero gains is not.


Clearly needs to be buffed a fair amount.

Actually screw this. all this advice is good and the implementation of it would make for a substantially better experience.

Adreaver for ~congress~ Hunter class designer 2020.
06/07/2018 01:33 PMPosted by Adreaver


The kit overall has some issues:

  • Aimed Shot cast time is slow.
    - This is easily addressed either by reducing the base cast time to 2.5s, or by allowing Steady Shot casts to reduce the cast time of your next Aimed Shot by 0.25s, stacking up to 4 times.
  • Damage tuning across the board is way out of whack.
    - Duh, it's beta. Damage numbers will be tuned as beta progresses. Don't expect proper tuning until prepatch at the earliest, and probably we won't have firm numbers until the week after raids open and Blizzard has some real data.
  • Talent distribution is wonky and apples/oranges.
    - Master Marksman is a Focus talent on a DoT row, change it to something else.
    - Swap Careful Aim and Barrage.
    - Change Explosive Shot to function like KJBW trinket, with the option to explode early if desired.
    - Change Trailblazer to fall off on damage taken, not damage dealt.
    - Baseline Camouflage as it is now, talented Improved Camouflage that gives you perma-stealth out of combat, and lets you use it in combat for 8s of invisibility and healing 2% per second, possibly with a longer cooldown (2 mins?) when used in combat.
    - Revert Steady Focus to the current live incarnation - When you cast Steady Shot twice in a row, you increase your Focus regeneration by X% for 12 seconds. Let this apply to both active and passive gains during that period.
    - Change Lethal Shots to affect the next Aimed Shot or Rapid Fire from the same buff.
    - Buff the proc rate of Lock and Load or front load the proc rate when entering combat so it doesn't feel like you have no 100 talent 95% of the time.
    - Reduce the CD of Piercing Shot so it becomes a centerpiece of the rotation, and properly tune the damage.
  • Lone Wolf. The current tuning is fantastic, but losing 10% Leech/Health/Speed and the pet actives for zero gains is not.
Other than those issues, if the spec went live tomorrow as it is on the beta right now, I would be happy. Even with those issues, it's no worse off than the live iteration, it just has different problems.


This post covers every single issue I have with the spec. Seconding all of this. Only thing I'd emphasize is that it felt really bad to have arbitrarily less utility than BM this expansion - it'd be nice if MM's utility wasn't gutted this time around.

Glad Camo was mentioned. While minor, its position as a talent remains an issue. It provides no benefit in-combat, making it an irrelevant talent choice in the vast majority of PvE situations. Baseline camo with a camo talent is an excellent fix.
In addition to these issues I realllllly hope the gun animations they put in isn't final, it looks so wimpy.
The old orc ones felt like I had so much DAKKA in my hands.
06/07/2018 07:24 AMPosted by Sevenshots
I remain genuinely puzzled about people who choose to use AiS in their rotation right now. It's going to have to get some kind of buff or cast time change in the future, so I'm not worried about it yet.


It pretty much is just an opener for me . The hardest hitting shot should not be just an opener and to be honest if aimed is a stand still shot shouldn't steady shot be one also . Hey in the real world a steady shot is one fired from a stand still position , where as an aimed shot can be fired from a stand still position or even on the move and this is from actual rl experience .
The mere fact people are playing without using our signature shot is unacceptable
The mere fact people are playing without using our signature shot (AND HAVING A BETTER GAMEPLAY EXPERIENCE) is unacceptable


Fify
10 sec recharge changes our mobility from 25% stuck to 30%, which is still significantly higher than any other spec than bm.


No....haste reduces both the recharge and cast time of AiS. They both scale at the same rate. 0% haste, AiS has a 12s CD, so you can cast 60/12 = 5 AiS per minute, 3.0s each, 15s immobile. 20% haste, AiS has a 12/1.2 = 10s CD, so you can cast 60/10 = 6 AiS per minute. Each cast takes 3.0/1.2 = 2.5s. Total is 6*2.5 = 15s per minute.

What happened before is that you'd spend 25% / (1 + Haste%) of your time casting AiS. Now you simply spend 25% of your time period, because the two haste effects mathematically counter-balance each other. It's literally impossible to spend more than 25% of your time casting AiS, excepting the extra initial charge you start the fight with and the bonus one from Trueshot every 3 minutes.

They implemented mastery for all shots, and lowered mastery benefit to compensate. Multi/steady hit harder but arcane hits much less now. Dunno if that's just the mastery or if they nerfed arcane. Feels like they nerfed arcane, honestly. Seems like they're doing everything possible to make people use aimed.


Strangely, they actually didn't nerf mastery. They almost certainly will, but currently it has the exact same scaling as it did before they added the rest of the shots to it (5% range and 20% damage baseline).

They also didn't nerf Arcane, has the same base damage (read: coefficient) as before the change. Steady Shot became more powerful relative to Arcane, due to it being added to mastery, but it still deals less damage than an unbuffed Arcane in practice due to armor. Previously, unbuffed Arcane did 14.3% more damage than Steady at 0% mastery, and 72.4% more at 50% mastery. Now it does 14.3% more at all mastery levels.

However, it appears that Rapid Fire is not currently benefitting from mastery, which is problematic. It also does not appear to affect Auto Shot, despite that technically being a "shot", though the mastery is specifically annotated as "the damage of all abilities" (emphasis mine).

Warning: maths incoming

Based on that, and assuming RF is intended to scale with mastery, this change represents a 6.7% increase to DPS with no stats, and a 14.19% increase at the 850-rating-in-each baseline that I've been using as an estimate for the first raid tier.

Problem is, mastery now scales like crazy. You get 50-75% more DPS per point of mastery with this change than before it. At the 850 stat baseline mentioned above, the existing rating needed per 1% DPS is (lower is better):

Crit: 87.70
Haste: 88.35
Mastery: 79.16
Versatility: 93.50

With this change as it currently stands, except adding RF to mastery (and remember, lower is better):

Crit: 87.70
Haste: 93.31 (+5.61%)
Mastery: 50.57 (-36.12%)
Versatility: 93.50

To bring mastery back in line with the rest of the stats, we'd need to reduce the damage benefit of it to between 10% and 12% baseline (compared to the existing 20%). Crit and Versatility are not affected by this change, and haste is only mildly impacted (reducing mastery from 20% to 10% reduces haste per 1% DPS from 93.31 to 92.72, which is less than a 1% swing in scaling), so I'm going to ignore them.

The mastery needed per 1% DPS at varying base levels is as follows:

10.0%: 86.87 (8.9% worse than previous scaling)
10.5%: 83.41 (5.1% worse)
11.0%: 80.27 (1.4% worse)
11.5%: 77.40 (2.3% better than previous scaling)
12.0%: 74.77 (5.9% better)

So, overall, not a bad change, but necessitates some additional changes to balance things out. Incidentally, decreasing the scaling of mastery functionally entirely offsets the damage gain from applying it to generators, so we wouldn't even need tweaks in that area.
In WoD wasn't it backwards? Steady Shot was the one you coudln't move, and cast to build focus... but Aimed Shot you COULD move. They should flip it.

While they're at it, making Piercing Shot ignore armor. It's a PIERCING shot after all.
It's cool to see a dev respond the Feedback and hope to see more of it.

That being said, I do wanna add somethings here regarding said feed back and current state of MM beta design.

Explosive Shot is of great concern for me and I have made a separate thread on that topic. Hoping that gets seen, but to keep this part short and not repeat a whole lot, something needs to change with that talent as it is mechanically problematic and horridly undesirable to pretty much the entirety of the Hunter community at this point.

Lone Wolf is next on the list as it seems to be a balancing problem regarding the class as a whole. I use to be a huge advocate for the ability back when it was first implemented, but now I can but wonder if it wouldn't be best for the class to just be rid of it all together. However, if it is to be kept it should be balanced on a basis of Utility while keeping it set up to be a compensation to whether you want the pet or not. I also don't think it should affect AOE related abilities in the rotation as that would promote a wonky pet juggling system for the sake of AOE damage gains, which I don't think would be enjoyable long term.

Steady Focus seems like it could be made an interesting design mechanic if it were to be modified slightly. Something along the lines of letting it decrease the cast time of Steady Shot which could then be consumed with your next Aimed Shot usage to lower the Aimed Shot cast time in a similar method to the Warlock Backdraft mechanic. But for something like this to work, we'd have to address the elephant in the room.

Rapid Fire
This ability alone is just weird, especially given the context of the spec's theme. I don't think there is any salvaging it as a spender either. I mean, you could make Barrage function in a similar manner to address the rogue pulling of mobs that it is prone to, but that's about all I can think of. It also makes Steady Shot have a near useless function in the spec, and to be honest I much prefer the classic feel of Steady Shot over the spazy machine gun that is Rapid Fire.

As it stands right now, I don't see any changes being meaningful so long as we are shackled with Rapid Fire. I would honestly say get rid of it. The only way I could see it being salvage would be to scrap Barrage's mechanic and switch it out for Rapid Fire's, while keeping it as a spender and not a builder. And once Rapid Fire is gone, regardless of how it is gone, buff Steady Shot's focus generation a bit to compensate. Simple enough start.
How many times would I ever cast Steady Shot more than twice in a row?
Regardless of what they do with Rapid Fire, I think they're missing a great thematic opportunity to rename it to Windburst and have it use the Legacy of the Windrunners trait animation
06/07/2018 10:32 PMPosted by Jackson
Regardless of what they do with Rapid Fire, I think they're missing a great thematic opportunity to rename it to Windburst and have it use the Legacy of the Windrunners trait animation


I want nothing to do with elf thematics. glad to be moving on.
06/07/2018 11:37 PMPosted by Prisse
06/07/2018 10:32 PMPosted by Jackson
Regardless of what they do with Rapid Fire, I think they're missing a great thematic opportunity to rename it to Windburst and have it use the Legacy of the Windrunners trait animation


I want nothing to do with elf thematics. glad to be moving on.


How is the Legacy of the Windrunners animation "elf thematics" in anything other than name, which wouldn't be carried over
06/07/2018 11:51 PMPosted by Jackson
<span class="truncated">...</span>

I want nothing to do with elf thematics. glad to be moving on.


How is the Legacy of the Windrunners animation "elf thematics" in anything other than name, which wouldn't be carried over


i think hes talking about the last name of Windrunner but hes over thinking it i get what youre saying about how awesome that action arrow animation looked. I too wish we could of kept that i always loved seeing it proc.
Hey Blizz, any chance you could just rework Explosive Shot back into what it used to be and have it replace Aimed Shot when talented? Long shot but figured I'd throw it out there.
Currently getting to Play on beta With my char copy And the legendary ring....

the ring allows using Piercing shot and LNL. I really really feel like LNL should be baseline it feels so good to have my instant cant ability and then also have rng LNL spice up the rotation. when only using one it feels so empty..

Can we please get LNL baked in especially if its stay a low proc like 5% i don't see why not it adds flavor to the rotation and it does not proc often so when it does its a pleasant sight.

Also playing with the gloves and getting to cast AIS every other on the move feels SOOOO good it kinda makes up for the 3 sec cast time.
Reminder that scatter shot should NOT Diminishing returns with freezing trap or replace it, now that bursting shot functions differently.
06/07/2018 09:07 PMPosted by Dosten

Rapid Fire
This ability alone is just weird, especially given the context of the spec's theme. I don't think there is any salvaging it as a spender either. I mean, you could make Barrage function in a similar manner to address the rogue pulling of mobs that it is prone to, but that's about all I can think of. It also makes Steady Shot have a near useless function in the spec, and to be honest I much prefer the classic feel of Steady Shot over the spazy machine gun that is Rapid Fire.

Personally I would much rather they remove Stead Shot from the game. It's an extremely old and out of date ability and even worse boring. It has an extremely long cast time for so little focus and damage. Steady Shot is the same thing as Aimed Shot, a slow cast time shot, the difference is Aimed Shot does damage and you can't move while casting. The spec would be better off lowering the CD of Rapid Fire and removed Steady Shot from the game. With Steady Shot gone they can give the cast while moving to Aimed Shot and everyone would be happy with that.
05/30/2018 06:20 PMPosted by Nimox
Hey everyone,

I wanted to post a few things about Marksmanship, including a few things in the works.

Lone Wolf's damage at 10% may not be the final number. I changed it from 18% to 10% a while back so it being at 18% and such a big DPS swing between pet and no pet would stop dominating the conversation about Lone Wolf. Tuning will happen.

Aimed Shot's charge recovery time will be reduced by haste in a future build.

Rapid Fire's visual effects are not final.
Rapid Fire will bounce to 1 additional target when Trick Shots is active in a future build.

Sniper Training (Mastery) will be changed to affect all of your shots instead of only Focus spending shots in a future build so things like Rapid Fire are not left behind as gear progresses.

RNG - there's a lot of talents with randomness in them. We hear the feedback that you feel things are too random. Some things will probably change to be less random in general, others will have some adjustments made to how they proc to prevent the really bad luck streaks from being a thing.

As always, thanks for the feedback both in this thread and others created.


So I'm glad that Blues are shining a light on certain classes and specializations, but is this really what MM Hunters got? Lol?

All these specs getting massive and narrowly tailored feedback posts, and this is ours? After the thousands upon thousands of MM Hunter threads and forum posts I just expected a little more...
Marksmanship Hunters,

Hello again, a few notes this morning.

- Aimed Shot should still be a 12 second recharge time before Haste, I'm unsure why some people are reporting it is showing up as 10 seconds for them. Is this still happening after the build that went up yesterday?

- After lots of discussion and reading feedback and many dungeon runs and raid testing and questing, we have decided that we're going to changed Aimed Shot to 2.5 second cast time, and Steady Shot to 1.75 second cast time.

- Regarding Lone Wolf and Pet Utility, if you have your active pet out, the Command Pet button in your spellbook should change into whatever your pet's special ability is, such as Primal Rage. If you dismiss your pet as a Marksmanship Hunter and opt into Lone Wolf, Command Pet should change into Survival of the Fittest as a cooldown you can use that reduces the damage you take by 20%. This looks to have some issues currently, and will be resolved in a future build.

Thanks for the continued feedback on this thread and others.

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