The state of Marksmanship

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
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06/08/2018 10:51 AMPosted by Nimox
Marksmanship Hunters,

Hello again, a few notes this morning.

- Aimed Shot should still be a 12 second recharge time before Haste, I'm unsure why some people are reporting it is showing up as 10 seconds for them. Is this still happening after the build that went up yesterday?

- After lots of discussion and reading feedback and many dungeon runs and raid testing and questing, we have decided that we're going to changed Aimed Shot to 2.5 second cast time, and Steady Shot to 1.75 second cast time.

- Regarding Lone Wolf and Pet Utility, if you have your active pet out, the Command Pet button in your spellbook should change into whatever your pet's special ability is, such as Primal Rage. If you dismiss your pet as a Marksmanship Hunter and opt into Lone Wolf, Command Pet should change into Survival of the Fittest as a cooldown you can use that reduces you take by 20%. This looks to have some issues currently, and will be resolved in a future build.

Thanks for the continued feedback on this thread and others.


Awesome! Really appreciate you taking the time to communicate with us and accept feedback, really happy to see aimed shot cast time getting lowered and lone wolf getting looked at
06/08/2018 10:51 AMPosted by Nimox
Marksmanship Hunters,

Hello again, a few notes this morning.

- Aimed Shot should still be a 12 second recharge time before Haste, I'm unsure why some people are reporting it is showing up as 10 seconds for them. Is this still happening after the build that went up yesterday?

- After lots of discussion and reading feedback and many dungeon runs and raid testing and questing, we have decided that we're going to changed Aimed Shot to 2.5 second cast time, and Steady Shot to 1.75 second cast time.

- Regarding Lone Wolf and Pet Utility, if you have your active pet out, the Command Pet button in your spellbook should change into whatever your pet's special ability is, such as Primal Rage. If you dismiss your pet as a Marksmanship Hunter and opt into Lone Wolf, Command Pet should change into Survival of the Fittest as a cooldown you can use that reduces you take by 20%. This looks to have some issues currently, and will be resolved in a future build.

Thanks for the continued feedback on this thread and others.


Thank you soooo much!!!!! Ais reduced cast time has been something every hunter has been asking for.

Added utility to lone wolf to make up for loss of utility of not taking a pet is amazing as well!!

my last grip with MM that I would like the devs to look at binding shot and post haste Being on the same tier this feels very punishing and leaves mm with only have freezing trap baseline for cc/peels while playing lone wolf you need that since you don’t have a pet tanking for you.

Also scatter shot should no longer replace bursting shot since it no longer has a disorient effect. Mm is a very squishy class and when being trained by melee the bursting shot knock back to survive is needed.

Scatter shot should return to being a disorient like it was for years.

SV/bm got a stun baseline MM got nothing

Scatter shot should become baseline

That would give us the old Scatter/trap combo back we had for years
Slowly getting harder to pick Beast or Marks for launch, and edging out the Druid fallback options, so things are finally coming together.

Would have been nice if class design was the *first* thing instead of the last during this alpha+beta cycle, but that's a subject for another day.
06/08/2018 10:51 AMPosted by Nimox
Marksmanship Hunters,

Hello again, a few notes this morning.

- Aimed Shot should still be a 12 second recharge time before Haste, I'm unsure why some people are reporting it is showing up as 10 seconds for them. Is this still happening after the build that went up yesterday?

- After lots of discussion and reading feedback and many dungeon runs and raid testing and questing, we have decided that we're going to changed Aimed Shot to 2.5 second cast time, and Steady Shot to 1.75 second cast time.

- Regarding Lone Wolf and Pet Utility, if you have your active pet out, the Command Pet button in your spellbook should change into whatever your pet's special ability is, such as Primal Rage. If you dismiss your pet as a Marksmanship Hunter and opt into Lone Wolf, Command Pet should change into Survival of the Fittest as a cooldown you can use that reduces you take by 20%. This looks to have some issues currently, and will be resolved in a future build.

Thanks for the continued feedback on this thread and others.


So, you really dont want us using Lone Wolf then? Why not just remove it if this is thne case as this doesnt help it at all

I mean youre not addressing it under parsing using a pet and giving us the damage reduction versus lust and other such skills we get with pets makes it a literally useless talent.

And not to mention still forcing into a small handful of pets that i personally have no interest is using outside of BM?

Time to move on i think, i have lost all interest in BFA MM at this point.
Marksmanship Hunters,

- Regarding Lone Wolf and Pet Utility, if you have your active pet out, the Command Pet button in your spellbook should change into whatever your pet's special ability is, such as Primal Rage. If you dismiss your pet as a Marksmanship Hunter and opt into Lone Wolf, Command Pet should change into Survival of the Fittest as a cooldown you can use that reduces you take by 20%. This looks to have some issues currently, and will be resolved in a future build.

Thanks for the continued feedback on this thread and others.


I'm kind of concerned that this will take away too much from tenacity pets. Tenacity pets already have survival of the fittest, so making it baseline makes it feel like you're only summoning the pet for the passive. Maybe the pet version can be like a self rally, where it still gives you the 20% damage reduction and increases your health by an extra 10% on top of the passive 10% for the duration?
Aim Shot cast time was my last serious grief with the MM changes.

I can now say I'm pumped to play MM in BFA.

Great job to everyone for not giving up on feedback!

F everyone who said it was a waste of time...
06/08/2018 10:51 AMPosted by Nimox
Marksmanship Hunters,

Hello again, a few notes this morning.

- Aimed Shot should still be a 12 second recharge time before Haste, I'm unsure why some people are reporting it is showing up as 10 seconds for them. Is this still happening after the build that went up yesterday?

- After lots of discussion and reading feedback and many dungeon runs and raid testing and questing, we have decided that we're going to changed Aimed Shot to 2.5 second cast time, and Steady Shot to 1.75 second cast time.

- Regarding Lone Wolf and Pet Utility, if you have your active pet out, the Command Pet button in your spellbook should change into whatever your pet's special ability is, such as Primal Rage. If you dismiss your pet as a Marksmanship Hunter and opt into Lone Wolf, Command Pet should change into Survival of the Fittest as a cooldown you can use that reduces the damage you take by 20%. This looks to have some issues currently, and will be resolved in a future build.

Thanks for the continued feedback on this thread and others.
Absolutely fantastic on both points. That completely addresses the issues that many players have with both Aimed Shot and Steady Shot, and the Lone Wolf change is fantastic as well.

2 quick questions:

1) Can we get Tranquilizing Shot back? Without it, we have no (petless) means to offensively dispel, which arbitrarily limits pet options in both PvE and PvP, and prevents Lone Wolf MM Hunters from dispelling entirely.

2) Can we get a small passive utility boost associated with Lone Wolf? Ferocity has Leech, Tenacity has Health, Cunning has movement speed, perhaps Lone Wolf could award a portion of each (jack of all trades, master of none) or something entirely different (increased Dodge? Avoidance?). Tuning Lone Wolf to be slightly better damage-wise would accomplish the same goal, but at the cost of making pet/petless a choice based on output, rather than desired utility or flavor.
I still think that 2,5 seconds is too slow of a cast time for Aimed Shot.

I still think that 1,75 seconds is too slow a cast time for a focus generating shot.

I still think AoE is going to feel bad for MM Hunters.

I still think that Lone Wolf Utility is lacking. If damage is even, then it's still a net loss in power.

Steps in the right direction, but not arrived at the goal yet.
06/08/2018 11:43 AMPosted by Adreaver
06/08/2018 10:51 AMPosted by Nimox
Marksmanship Hunters,

Hello again, a few notes this morning.

- Aimed Shot should still be a 12 second recharge time before Haste, I'm unsure why some people are reporting it is showing up as 10 seconds for them. Is this still happening after the build that went up yesterday?

- After lots of discussion and reading feedback and many dungeon runs and raid testing and questing, we have decided that we're going to changed Aimed Shot to 2.5 second cast time, and Steady Shot to 1.75 second cast time.

- Regarding Lone Wolf and Pet Utility, if you have your active pet out, the Command Pet button in your spellbook should change into whatever your pet's special ability is, such as Primal Rage. If you dismiss your pet as a Marksmanship Hunter and opt into Lone Wolf, Command Pet should change into Survival of the Fittest as a cooldown you can use that reduces the damage you take by 20%. This looks to have some issues currently, and will be resolved in a future build.

Thanks for the continued feedback on this thread and others.
Absolutely fantastic on both points. That completely addresses the issues that many players have with both Aimed Shot and Steady Shot, and the Lone Wolf change is fantastic as well.

2 quick questions:

1) Can we get Tranquilizing Shot back? Without it, we have no (petless) means to offensively dispel, which arbitrarily limits pet options in both PvE and PvP, and prevents Lone Wolf MM Hunters from dispelling entirely.

2) Can we get a small passive utility boost associated with Lone Wolf? Ferocity has Leech, Tenacity has Health, Cunning has movement speed, perhaps Lone Wolf could award a portion of each (jack of all trades, master of none) or something entirely different (increased Dodge? Avoidance?). Tuning Lone Wolf to be slightly better damage-wise would accomplish the same goal, but at the cost of making pet/petless a choice based on output, rather than desired utility or flavor.
Yes, MM doesn't compete in terms of survivability, or utility. It doesn't have access to tranq without nerfing our damage via lone wolf. If anything, can Lone Wolf just like.. idk.. go away. It's an unfun mechanic in every regard, and seeing as how it's going to be a balance issue in BFA I'd rather it just go away and give us the utility of pets, if you're not gonna buff us in other ways without a pet.

Also.. what's the purpose of Steady Shot? It doesn't hardly ever get used, and the talents don't justify its use any more-so. If you want us to have a weird "only Aimed Shot while a target is above 80% or below 35% style" then make that talent baseline, or make it work like One with the Pack, where it just increases the chance of that happening. Also, if you do that, i'd propose making Arcane Shot deal more damage to targets between 35-80% hp, to compensate using it without Aimed Shot. This would definitely give hunters this sort of "mastery" of knowing what shots to use when. The major frustration would then be getting an AiS out before they drop below 85%. Personally, I'd rather Rapid Fire have a longer cooldown, reduced by Steady Shot casts, making us utilize Steady Shot more frequently.

You could also change Steady Focus to be like it used to be, somewhat. Make using double Steady Shot casts rotational, baseline, to keep a damage and/or haste buff up, making us have to consider taking Steady Shot talents, which you could then change other talents around, or make Steady Shot deal ricochet damage, similar to Rapid Fire, after using Multishot.

Edit: For Lone Wolf to be desirable, and an interesting mechanic. Dismiss pet, for Marksman only, should be instant. Lone Wolf should no longer slowly stack, but still provide the 10% damage buff. It should however provide passives that make it so using Lone Wolf isn't a survivability loss. Lone Wolf, in my opinion, should also buff the damage of Trickshots and Multishot to make it more desirable for AoE situations.

This would give pet swapping a place for MM, and would allow us to use LW for AoE situations, while using a pet for single target. Personally I'd still advocate against having Lone Wolf anyways. Never enjoyed the idea of not having a pet as a hunter, they've been a thing since vanilla. It's class fantasy. WoD and Legion babies can complain all they want. :)
A quick clarification post because I've seen some confusion:

Lone Wolf will ONLY give you the extra Survival of the Fittest button, regardless of what pet you dismissed to get the Lone Wolf effect. It will not change the ability you get depending on your dismissed pet's specialization.
06/08/2018 11:58 AMPosted by Nimox
A quick clarification post because I've seen some confusion:

Lone Wolf will ONLY give you the extra Survival of the Fittest button, regardless of what pet you dismissed to get the Lone Wolf effect. It will not change the ability you get depending on your dismissed pet's specialization.


wow... not good, not good at all.
what about it under parsing?
06/08/2018 11:58 AMPosted by Nimox
A quick clarification post because I've seen some confusion:

Lone Wolf will ONLY give you the extra Survival of the Fittest button, regardless of what pet you dismissed to get the Lone Wolf effect. It will not change the ability you get depending on your dismissed pet's specialization.


Why don't make it switch like it did back in WoD? Are you against Lone Wolf having access to the utility the other 2 pet specs offer or do you feel the Damage Reduction CD is too strong to let it pass?
06/08/2018 11:50 AMPosted by Vesira
Yes, MM doesn't compete in terms of survivability, or utility. It doesn't have access to tranq without nerfing our damage via lone wolf. If anything, can Lone Wolf just like.. idk.. go away. It's an unfun mechanic in every regard, and seeing as how it's going to be a balance issue in BFA I'd rather it just go away and give us the utility of pets, if you're not gonna buff us in other ways without a pet.
Damage wise, it's not a balance issue, at all, in BfA as it stands right now. My DPS as of the previous several builds was within 1-2% pet vs petless, well within the margin of error, especially given that tuning isn't in place yet. Keep in mind that pet damage does not scale with Mastery, and scales poorly with Haste, so Lone Wolf will naturally pull ahead as we gear up.

The issue is utility balancing. Active utility balancing is handled with Survival of the Fittest being the default if you have no pet.

That leaves passive utility and/or damage. Ferocity gives 10% Leech (sustain and a little damage), Tenacity gives 10% Health, and Cunning gives 8% Movement speed. Lone Wolf gives nothing. If Lone Wolf gave 3% each of Leech/Health/Speed, or some other comparable buff, they would be as close to perfectly balanced as possible while still allowing players to choose whether or not they want to play with a pet (assuming that Tranquilizing Shot comes back - otherwise pets are going to be inherently better any time your enemy target can self-buff).

Given the changes coming, I want to amend my list from the earlier post:
  • Aimed Shot cast time is slow. Not anymore it isn't!
  • Damage tuning across the board is way out of whack.
    - Duh, it's beta. Damage numbers will be tuned as beta progresses. Don't expect proper tuning until prepatch at the earliest, and probably we won't have firm numbers until the week after raids open and Blizzard has some real data.
  • Lone Wolf. Near-perfect balance right now in terms of damage and actives, needs a passive to compete with the passive Leech/Health/Movement.
  • Tranquilizing Shot. Needs to come back, otherwise certain pets (Bat, Nether Ray, Stag, Moth, Sporebat, Crane) will be required in scenarios where your enemy target applies a dispellable buff.
  • Scatter Shot. Should come back as a baseline ability, preferably as a stun, mirroring Intimidation that is now baseline for BM and SV.
    • Talents:
    • Master Marksman is a Focus talent on a DoT row, change it to something else.
    • Swap Careful Aim and Barrage.
    • Change Explosive Shot to function like KJBW trinket, with the option to explode early if desired.
    • Change Trailblazer to fall off on damage taken, not damage dealt.
    • Baseline Camouflage as it is now, talented Improved Camouflage that gives you perma-stealth out of combat, and lets you use it in combat for 8s of invisibility and healing 2% per second, possibly with a longer cooldown (2 mins?) when used in combat.
    • Revert Steady Focus to the current live incarnation - When you cast Steady Shot twice in a row, you increase your Focus regeneration by X% for 12 seconds. Let this apply to both active and passive gains during that period.
    • Change Lethal Shots to affect the next Aimed Shot or Rapid Fire from the same buff.
      - This forces you to make a conscious decision about where you want to spend the proc, which is more engaging than buffing one or the other at random. Do I want to use the proc on Aimed Shot which is available now, or do I want to delay until Rapid Fire is available in a few seconds? That depends - Would delaying cause me to cap Aimed Shot charges or Focus? Am I going to ricochet? To how many targets? Am I in Careful Aim range?
    • Buff the proc rate of Lock and Load or front load the proc rate when entering combat so it doesn't feel like you have no 100 talent 95% of the time.
    • Reduce the CD of Piercing Shot so it becomes a centerpiece of the rotation, and properly tune the damage.
2.5 sec Aimed Shot is still too long. Cast time should be less or same as on LiIve. I don't like charges on it as well.
Our AOE is lacking. Do something about it.
Lone Wolf utility is lacking.
Make Camouflage baseline. Put something else in it's place.
Explosive Shot should just be a target spell, instead of that poor implementation that is on live and beta.
Tranquilizing Shot baseline is a must since I hate those pets that bug out all the time.
06/08/2018 10:51 AMPosted by Nimox
Marksmanship Hunters,

Hello again, a few notes this morning.

- Aimed Shot should still be a 12 second recharge time before Haste, I'm unsure why some people are reporting it is showing up as 10 seconds for them. Is this still happening after the build that went up yesterday?

- After lots of discussion and reading feedback and many dungeon runs and raid testing and questing, we have decided that we're going to changed Aimed Shot to 2.5 second cast time, and Steady Shot to 1.75 second cast time.

- Regarding Lone Wolf and Pet Utility, if you have your active pet out, the Command Pet button in your spellbook should change into whatever your pet's special ability is, such as Primal Rage. If you dismiss your pet as a Marksmanship Hunter and opt into Lone Wolf, Command Pet should change into Survival of the Fittest as a cooldown you can use that reduces the damage you take by 20%. This looks to have some issues currently, and will be resolved in a future build.

Thanks for the continued feedback on this thread and others.

That .5 second off the cast of Aimed Shot is great and will help in the long run though I still feel 2 second would be better.

As for Lone Wolf is there a way to make Command pet retain whichever ability it would have been without having the pet out? Also one thing that doesn't make sense to me about lone wolf is the pet utility. If pets now have passive utility like leech and so on and the damage is equal between lone wolf and having a pet what is the point of lone wolf when it will always be worse to not use a pet. Shouldn't the passive abilities of the pet also carry over to a hunter without a pet or more so only be active without a pet and not with it? Having leech is great but when your pet is tanking and your not taking damage whats the point? When you don't have a pet and are taking damage that makes more sense to have the leech.
06/08/2018 12:13 PMPosted by Killshót

Our AOE is lacking.

Are you claiming baseline AoE is bad or just in general? Because I know for a fact with barrage I top the meter on most trash pulls in 5 mans at the moment.
06/08/2018 10:51 AMPosted by Nimox
Marksmanship Hunters,

Hello again, a few notes this morning.

- Aimed Shot should still be a 12 second recharge time before Haste, I'm unsure why some people are reporting it is showing up as 10 seconds for them. Is this still happening after the build that went up yesterday?

- After lots of discussion and reading feedback and many dungeon runs and raid testing and questing, we have decided that we're going to changed Aimed Shot to 2.5 second cast time, and Steady Shot to 1.75 second cast time.

- Regarding Lone Wolf and Pet Utility, if you have your active pet out, the Command Pet button in your spellbook should change into whatever your pet's special ability is, such as Primal Rage. If you dismiss your pet as a Marksmanship Hunter and opt into Lone Wolf, Command Pet should change into Survival of the Fittest as a cooldown you can use that reduces the damage you take by 20%. This looks to have some issues currently, and will be resolved in a future build.

Thanks for the continued feedback on this thread and others.


Can't wait to try out the changes, thank you!
06/08/2018 12:39 PMPosted by Belerian
Hello Blizzard...this is retribution speaking. Could you perhaps come over to one of our threads and react somehow? Would be great. Thx for your business.


Ret is largely unchanged, lighten up francis

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