The state of Marksmanship

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Lastly, we're way too late in the development cycle to consider hard-swap mechanics like LnL going baseline and mastery scaling its proc chance. Hell, they still won't make RF a spender, and were even super reluctant to reduce AiS's cast time. That says to me that they are very firmly sold on the current gameplay style of MM.

We JUST had a substantial change, and they are obviously listening to us, and you are saying that it is “too late”? The actual coding for such changes is a matter of a couple hours for ONE person. Not that I expect them to make such changes, even if I justify it, but please don’t tell me its like some huge deal if it affects a few things instead of just one.

Prior to my current graduate school stint, I was a software engineer for 8 years. I know how long it takes to do things. The thing that takes the longest is actually getting to it. The coding itself is trivial. All of my suggestions are just moving around code that already exists. For example, taking away Precise Shots, which I think is one of those “issues?”, or maybe it was a “caveat?” would literally take 5 minutes, and that assumes it is 50 times more complicated than I think (it often is). The truth is, it would probably take 5 seconds, so no, its not that many addendums.
We should be trying to steer that design, not giving them what-ifs on how to replace it.

I agree that all good ideas should be offered. I just think the lack of ANYTHING reactionary in the current BfA MM Hunter is a MAJOR flaw, not a minor one. I think that things like Careful Aim, and Precise Shots make all our normal abilities feel REALLY weak, even though they aren’t, and that this is a substantial enough problem to warrant attention before it goes live, assuming we want people to actually enjoy playing MM.

To me, these are big deals, and they will get my BEST feedback on them. They are not as big as the cast time reduction we just got, but they are now next on the list of big deals. I want MM to feel good to play. I am giving feedback towards that end.
I personally think that creating another shot that is only usable when it procs is maybe the way to go. Like I mentioned earlier, we can call it Vulner..... I mean Head Shot. Every auto-shot or every focus spending abilities have X% to proc Head Shot that costs 10 focus.


I'm a huge fan of this, either as a baseline effect (ideal, baseline procs are good) or as a talent. This is a very very good suggestion.

I think that having a baseline LnL proc be something besides Aimed Shot (it could be “Aimed Shot!", or anything else you want to call it) is a better idea as well, whether it is affected by mastery or not. In my model LnL procs are not benefitting from anything else, so it is trivial to translate what I am putting forth into some other shot.

Bottom line, I welcome your criticism, but please give me something useful. Don’t hypothesize in an authoritative voice without actually looking at it critically. Don’t say you don’t like it in some indirect manner. Be direct, be specific, and maybe even work with me. We are on the same team (from my perspective).
Extended the cap for you guys on this one.
06/11/2018 09:56 AMPosted by Ythisens
Extended the cap for you guys on this one.
Much appreciated, I'm sure we will have a lot to talk about when the previously discussed changes get pushed to beta.
Wow. Feels super bad now. Feral capped it's thread days ago, never got its thread increased so we had to create a new one that already has over 60 postd
Since they upped the cap - here is what i had posted in the part 2 thread:

Well, since they seem to be listening, and making some requested changes...

How about:

LnL baseline
Make Explosive shot like previous version, have it replace aimed shot
Bring back black arrow in some form (make it replace rapid fire with less damage since it is not channeled? Give it the same functionality, but as a DoT rather than channel?).

It would be so nice if we could get the ranged SV playstyle back...
06/11/2018 09:56 AMPosted by Ythisens
Extended the cap for you guys on this one.


Greetings Ythisens!

I've been following much of Adreavor's 1300+ post thread, as well as Kaedy's Beta thread.

Could we please get some feedback from a Blue about MM's baseline rotation. I'd wager to say the vast majority of feedback either heavily involves or at least touches upon MM's base gameplay feeling incomplete. This feedback includes things like Stings, a Signature Shot, and past dynamic abilities like Kill Shot.

So far this feedback hasn't been addressed, but it would be beneficial to the Hunter community as a whole to know whether this is being looked at or it is something that Blizzard is simply not going to do.

Thanks for extending the cap.

Cheers
06/11/2018 09:56 AMPosted by Ythisens
Extended the cap for you guys on this one.


did you guys forget BM exists? or are you abandoning BM like survival in WOD. jeez.
Overall, I think there is just never a moment in the rotation where I feel powerful.

Compare it to Live, where popping Trueshot, or even getting a string of procs has a significant impact on what you can do, it feels boring.
06/11/2018 10:22 AMPosted by Stephiki

Could we please get some feedback from a Blue about MM's baseline rotation. I'd wager to say the vast majority of feedback either heavily involves or at least touches upon MM's base gameplay feeling incomplete. This feedback includes things like Stings, a Signature Shot, and past dynamic abilities like Kill Shot.


I had a random idea while playing earlier. What if they added chimera shot back to the MM tree as a rapid fire replacement? It could be the same as the BM version so you can opt-in to an instant focus builder instead of a long channel. Could replace the boring hunter's mark talent and feel like playing pre-legion again.
05/30/2018 06:20 PMPosted by Nimox
Lone Wolf's damage at 10% may not be the final number. I changed it from 18% to 10% a while back so it being at 18% and such a big DPS swing between pet and no pet would stop dominating the conversation about Lone Wolf. Tuning will happen.

The problem is that it's not possible to tune it reliably with exclusively numeric changes. Even ignoring the passive utility benefits from pets in BfA, the problem of multi-target damage and the problem of pet damage being unaffected by mastery remains.

At best, you'll have to keep re-tuning Lone Wolf every tier or so to keep them at similar states. At worst, it's going to be a game of repeatedly changing between pet and no-pet depending on if you have x number of targets or not, or you have y% of mastery or not.

If you truly intend Lone Wolf vs. pet to be reliably competitive then, in addition to precise tuning, Lone Wolf needs to only affect the primary target of any multi-target abilities (i.e., the target you're Multi-Shotting/Trick Shotting off of), and pet damage needs to be increased by mastery proportionally to the percentage of hunter damage that is increased by it.

And, of course, Lone Wolf still needs to have the passive/semi-passive utility that is lost by not having a pet. I'd personally think that Lone Wolf attaching Mortal Wounds to one of MM's shots (limit one target, regardless of which shot it's attached to) would be the best utility to add, plus, say, some passive Avoidance. Those two choices would give one utility that's primarily PvP-oriented and one utility that's primarily PvE oriented, negating some of the raw utility drawbacks of running petless, but not outshining the flexibility offered by pet choice utility.

Or somebody could just make a decision on which play-style is 'canonical', and tune damage and utility exclusively around that decision -- rather than leaving players worrying about the potential for play-style roulette as the tiers go by in BfA.
06/11/2018 10:17 AMPosted by Bheleu
Since they upped the cap - here is what i had posted in the part 2 thread:

Well, since they seem to be listening, and making some requested changes...

How about:

LnL baseline
Make Explosive shot like previous version, have it replace aimed shot
Bring back black arrow in some form (make it replace rapid fire with less damage since it is not channeled? Give it the same functionality, but as a DoT rather than channel?).

It would be so nice if we could get the ranged SV playstyle back...


Liked
06/11/2018 01:25 PMPosted by Meirá
06/11/2018 10:17 AMPosted by Bheleu
Since they upped the cap - here is what i had posted in the part 2 thread:

Well, since they seem to be listening, and making some requested changes...

How about:

LnL baseline
Make Explosive shot like previous version, have it replace aimed shot
Bring back black arrow in some form (make it replace rapid fire with less damage since it is not channeled? Give it the same functionality, but as a DoT rather than channel?).

It would be so nice if we could get the ranged SV playstyle back...


Liked


Liked your like.
06/11/2018 09:59 AMPosted by Pidooma
Wow. Feels super bad now. Feral capped it's thread days ago, never got its thread increased so we had to create a new one that already has over 60 postd


Did you report the thread and ask for a cap increase? Because that's exactly what I did with this thread.

Thank you, Ythisens, for going ahead and boosting the cap for us. More to come once the changes are pushed to live and we can see how they shake out in terms of gameplay feel.
06/11/2018 02:14 PMPosted by Kaedys
06/11/2018 09:59 AMPosted by Pidooma
Wow. Feels super bad now. Feral capped it's thread days ago, never got its thread increased so we had to create a new one that already has over 60 postd


Did you report the thread and ask for a cap increase? Because that's exactly what I did with this thread.

Thank you, Ythisens, for going ahead and boosting the cap for us. More to come once the changes are pushed to live and we can see how they shake out in terms of gameplay feel.


Yes, multiple of us did. Could have been cause it was a weekend, but when you cap out your thread that has had zero feedback in it just for another class who has received a decent amount to get their cap raised days after ours feels bad. Glad you guys are getting solid responses though. I've been following closely in case feral doesn't pan out the way we hope.
06/08/2018 10:51 AMPosted by Nimox
Marksmanship Hunters,

Hello again, a few notes this morning.

- Aimed Shot should still be a 12 second recharge time before Haste, I'm unsure why some people are reporting it is showing up as 10 seconds for them. Is this still happening after the build that went up yesterday?

- After lots of discussion and reading feedback and many dungeon runs and raid testing and questing, we have decided that we're going to changed Aimed Shot to 2.5 second cast time, and Steady Shot to 1.75 second cast time.

- Regarding Lone Wolf and Pet Utility, if you have your active pet out, the Command Pet button in your spellbook should change into whatever your pet's special ability is, such as Primal Rage. If you dismiss your pet as a Marksmanship Hunter and opt into Lone Wolf, Command Pet should change into Survival of the Fittest as a cooldown you can use that reduces the damage you take by 20%. This looks to have some issues currently, and will be resolved in a future build.

Thanks for the continued feedback on this thread and others.


I’m not trying to be rude here but I noticed you said after a lot of dungeon runs,raiding and questing you decided to make game play Changes.

Just curious is PVP not apart of this game anymore? why are classes never tested or played in pvp when being designed??

Why can’t mm hunters have Kill shot back hunters have been beggin for it back. How is a master marksman not skilled even to have a ability called kill shot. It fits the deadeye bow man theme please
Ok so I haven't played hunter for very long. I made one back when I first started playing the game and haven't touched her since like the end of MoP and even then I didn't play her. I leveled this hunter as BM for the heritage armor and decided I'd give hunter a shot on beta to see how I liked it.

This is my first time playing MM in years and honestly, it feels really freaking slow and this is coming from a caster main so I'm used to cast times. If I take proc based talents it makes it slightly more interesting but for the most part I feel like I'm just watching my cast bars and waiting.

Again I haven't touched MM hunter in a very long time but I don't remember MM ever feeling like this before but to me it just doesn't feel good. I'm under the impression that they're supposed to be a "sniper like" hunter of sorts? Correct me if I'm wrong but that's the theme I'm getting from this. But even with these long cast times nothing actually feels very impactful other than cooldowns.

From what I have tried the very basic rotation is don't sit on aimed shot charges, arcane shot to dump focus before capping, don't cap focus, steady shot & rapid fire to build focus, and then multi shot for aoe. I'm just trying to figure out if I'm missing something at the core (not talking about talents right now).

I don't know, maybe MM just isn't for me.
One thing I've always tried to employ in my life is that of empathy. Being able to take a step back and try to understand someone else's position on something, weather or not I agree, has served me well.

What I can't get my head around is this slow, plodding gameplay mechanic MM has evolved into. Do I think it's an improvement over MM in its current incarnation? Yes, believe it or not. However, again, I struggle with how the people on the other end of things feel that's the right way to go.

So here's a few things I'd like to see:

- The baseline cast time of Aimed Shot reduced, and thus it's damage reduced as well to compensate.
- The choice between Lone Wolf and the use of a pet should be simple: Lone Wolf = more damage be it AoE or single-target, w/ pet = survivability.
- Bring back stances! We were able to stance dance our way through mobile moments in fights once. Doing so sacrificed damage, which was entirely logical.
- Either increase Volley's damage significantly, or at least make it act as a small focus generator.
- The way Trueshot Aura plays with MM is awful. It's basically a free Aimed Shot. You guys can do better. Give us something truly meaningful to press.
-Make cast times as well as recharge rates (I think something about this was already done? I can't recall) significantly effected by haste.
Lock n' Load procs increased.
- Please, for the love of all you might consider holy, change back Explosive Shot. It's awful to use on live, and it's awful in beta.
- The baseline cast time of Aimed Shot reduced, and thus it's damage reduced as well to compensate.
- The choice between Lone Wolf and the use of a pet should be simple: Lone Wolf = more damage be it AoE or single-target, w/ pet = survivability.
- Bring back stances! We were able to stance dance our way through mobile moments in fights once. Doing so sacrificed damage, which was entirely logical.
- Either increase Volley's damage significantly, or at least make it act as a small focus generator.
- The way Trueshot Aura plays with MM is awful. It's basically a free Aimed Shot. You guys can do better. Give us something truly meaningful to press.
-Make cast times as well as recharge rates (I think something about this was already done? I can't recall) significantly effected by haste.
Lock n' Load procs increased.
- Please, for the love of all you might consider holy, change back Explosive Shot. It's awful to use on live, and it's awful in beta.


Of this list, all of our cast times and AiS's recharge are already affected by haste. The only rotational CD we have that isn't affected by haste is RF. In addition, they are already reducing AiS's cast time from 3.0 to 2.5s and Steady Shot's from 2.0 to 1.75s in the next build.

Volley is actually reasonably balanced on damage contribution. The problem is, it actually does too much damage per proc, requiring it to have an atrociously low proc rate (my extended testing over the weekend suggests 10% proc rate, which is about 2 procs per minute baseline). If they quartered the damage and quadrupled the proc rate, it would be a much much better talent for actual AoE damage.

Lock and Load is similar. Yes, it has a very low proc rate (though, remember that LnL on live only has an 8% proc rate), but AiS is so impactful of a shot that LnL is already in the ballpark of a 5% overall damage increase.

Lastly, I would rather that Lone Wolf not be significantly ahead on DPS. If it is, then it's simply going to feel bad whenever we're in a situation where we have to run a pet (example, a M+ group that lacks another source of Bloodlust). No other class has to sacrifice their damage in order to bring their group utility.

I'd prefer Lone Wolf to be equal or slightly ahead on DPS (talking 1-2% at the most, just so it's the default option), and also equal on utility. They are already giving us Survival of the Fittest when we don't have a pet out, which is a significant step in the right direction, but we're still lacking a passive utility buff comparable to what the pet families provide.

As for Explosive Shot, I don't think we need back WoD era version of it unless they are going to go all the way and provide a talent-based semi-full conversion towards old ranged Survival gameplay. The existing version of Explosive Shot would be perfectly fine if it worked more like Burning Wish, with or without the option to detonate early, rather than the atrocious skillshot it currently is. The only way to reliably use the current (and BfA) version is to stand up in melee range and simply double-tap the ability.

I'm ambivalent about stances.
+1 on explosive shot. I want to like this ability but it’s just a meme in application. The KJBW approach is solid and wouldn’t be a complete rework of the talent. Skill shots just don’t really work in an mmo the way they do in other games. Please address it.

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