The state of Marksmanship

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
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07/28/2018 04:20 AMPosted by Tyranastus
07/28/2018 02:57 AMPosted by Rambunxious
see plenty of 120 MM hunters on Beta....somebody must like how it plays

How I missed you popping into the forums and saying things that almost no one here agreed with; glad to see things haven't changed.

Of course some people will and do enjoy how it plays. Just because some Marksmanship hunters enjoyed the Vulnerable play style doesn't mean that the vast majority liked it.
Just because people are playing a spec, doesn't mean that it wouldn't benefit from significant changes and fixes. In fact, I will go a step further and say that just because people enjoy a spec doesn't mean that it wouldn't benefit from changes and fixes.

Even then your statement is a logical fallacy; I played Beast Mastery through the entirely of Legion that I was subbed, not because I enjoyed it, but because it was the least unbearable spec for Hunters in my opinion. I did not, and still don't particularly enjoy the play style of the spec, but I continue to play it because I still manage to glean some enjoyment from grouping with friends to complete content, and enjoy other aspects of the game. The fact that I don't like the spec just means that it is much harder for the parts of the game I do enjoy to keep me subbed because I don't enjoy what I feel is the most important part of it: how my class and spec feels.

Glad to see u still think only ur opinion matters read more closely and u would see others like get over urself hopefully u quit wow again and wont have to see u
bump for justice
Bump because we're about to go through 2 expansions with a poorly designed spec.
08/05/2018 07:06 PMPosted by Bertimus
The Marksmanship nerfs had to happen, despite the spec already being super bad at 120. The possibility of getting two +50% (from the baseline spell bonus against new target), +100% (from careful aim) aimed shots from stealth in an opener would always plague the spec every time damage needs to be adjusted for PvE.

If prepatch pve numbers are any indication of what beginning 120 numbers are like, MM is due a pretty substantial PvE buff to keep it competitive with the other dps specs. Think about every time a new content patch comes out and tuning is necessary, having to balance the +- of aimed shot damage against the possibility that hunters are using this particular talent setup in PvP. Aimed shot would never be able to do any real damage outside of the opener, because those would end up scaling to what you saw in prepatch from openers. By the way, these specific talents/effects were brought up MONTHS ago and discussed ad nauseum in the now capped beta thread. Credit Reimmi there.

Going forward, I think baseline damage is due to increase based on indicators from PvE, and that's discounting whether or not Blizzard puts -pvp damage modifiers with them going forward. I think the first, most obvious thing that should be done is putting scatter on disorient DR now that binding and bursting aren't loss of control and wyvern is gone. Ranger's Finesse is now a useless PvP talent because it was implemented when aimed shot was designed to be spammed. Trueshot mastery is a bad talent now because trueshot is not a super meaningful cooldown any more. Piercing and explosive shot are also so undertuned and awkward that they're basically wasted talent slots. I think those four abilities should be up for replacement/retuning, as well as scatter off trap dr and the spec might be getting close to competitive with the other hunter specs.

Quoted here from an arena forums thread. Nutshell of the spec from a PvP perspective. The spec is just overly simple and one dimensional. It also lacks a cc toolkit. There are some talents that just flat out don't make sense, and there are some with obvious changes to be made (scatter DR) that would make night and day difference.
Also why can’t explosive shot literally just be wod survival explosive shot? That playstyle was promised to us when ranged sv went away and was never delivered. Very few like the current iteration of explosive shot.

Piercing shot is another talent that just doesn’t make sense. It doesn’t ever do enough damage in a single target scenario to be worth it, but it can’t really do super impressive st because of the cleave. Due to its place on the talent tree, it just doesn’t ever make sense, and it feels like there is a spot open in the rotation for something like a strong single target “piercing shot”.

Imo if we had different iterations of these two talents that already exist, the rotation could become a lot more interesting.
Bump to make mm more interesting and not the new bm dumbed down spec.
I legit can't stand MM now. It's boring, it's terrible in pvp, and the rotation is awful for pve.

I hated the trick we had for a while there (one shotting someone is gimmicky and won't keep me entertained). I've wanted some kind fo SV play-style of old back for so long. MM has talents that don't work because they've been brought over from legion, yet were not changed and it just seems lazy (some SV ones also).

I want to use a bow, but I want a DOT based ranged physical/magical archer. Not some 1 shot pony that stands there like an idiot while the melee meta destroy my face. I can't stand it with all the CC most other classes have, I spend approx 5 seconds usually trying to cast 1 aimed shot and it hits like a wet sponge on plate wearers.

MM has the worst CC of the three specs, and just can't perform. Add on how bad things like rapid fire look and I can't help but feel the devs for it have no idea/don't care about it. I can't imagine someone, objectively, would think the class is "ok" right now. And with all the testing, and even beta feedback I provided, it shocks me it actually got to the stage it's in now.

One more thing, explosive shot barley works, I had the same issue with explosive trap in legion that didn't work on several boss fights, fix the spell, or remove it. I can't believe how this can still be a thing. Put some actually fun/interesting talents in it's place. Or turn it into a replacement of AS and make it work like old explosive shot from SV used too and let hunters enjoy specs/play-styles that we've enjoyed for years before everything you decided to do in legion and now in BFA.
Please balance us outside of aimed shot being 80% or our damage.
08/06/2018 06:26 AMPosted by Anedis

I want to use a bow, but I want a DOT based ranged physical/magical archer. Not some 1 shot pony that stands there like an idiot while the melee meta destroy my face. I can't stand it with all the CC most other classes have, I spend approx 5 seconds usually trying to cast 1 aimed shot and it hits like a wet sponge on plate wearers.

Survival's playing pretty good if you need to refugee for a while. I get you man I stuck it through legion MM. I understand if you refuse to play current SV. But they did bring back ranged and you can multi-dot and CC like beast-mode all from ranged. Melee is definitely a requirement.
08/06/2018 02:32 PMPosted by Lekai
Please balance us outside of aimed shot being 80% or our damage.

it's sad how we went from casting aimed shot half as much but it's even MORE Of our damage than in legion
08/06/2018 10:13 PMPosted by Reimmi
08/06/2018 02:32 PMPosted by Lekai
Please balance us outside of aimed shot being 80% or our damage.

it's sad how we went from casting aimed shot half as much but it's even MORE Of our damage than in legion

This. Arcane Shot needs serious attention. On top of that True Shot needs a legitimate function. Make it allow Aimed Shot castable while moving with a built in 20-25% LnL effect to make it worth our only nuke at 3m CD. Have LnL stack it an additional 5%, and this also makes Calling the Shots no longer trash. Or anything really, just make it not suck.
bump, mm is one the worst class right now. any one who plays the beta knows that.
"mm seems pretty bad with how the class work now, they seems to be low damage and not feeling very god to play" even the guys from wow head says that...
Something needs to be done, its entire playstyle and kit just doesn't work. It's an archer/hunter, give it lots of shots to choose from to deal with situations and please move away from AS being like 70+% of our damage.

Having one shot and everything hinging on it feels terrible. By the time I've managed to cast an AS that hits a plate wearer for 2-3k on live right now all the while they've got free rain to absolutely wreck me is dumb, I hate standing still to fire a "huge" shot that does very little and I don't feel rewarded/enjoy the gameplay that MM brings right now.

Move it more towards something like MOP or WOD. Give us kill shot back, roll some of SV's old ranged kit into it, anything honestly! Give us black arrow, and serpent sting as baseline so we don't just rely on AS as damage, but it supplements our damage during downtime where we can apply dots.

Just spit balling here but WHY does it keep getting designed like this, so many hunters liked older iterations of the spec and I think there is an awesome opportunity here to turn MM into a hybrid of what WOD and MOP MM and SV was, you'd make all of us so happy! Me included!

I log in almost everyday and change specs to MM for just a moment to run content and it's not long before I can't stand it and change back to SV :(
08/07/2018 08:44 PMPosted by Anedis
give it lots of shots to choose from

Said this. edit: Exotic Munitions was incredible. Focus builders are not fun (I don't think), damage dealers are. Shot threading is fun.

08/07/2018 08:44 PMPosted by Anedis
I think there is an awesome opportunity here to turn MM into a hybrid of what WOD and MOP MM and SV was

Said this too. They did add ammo types to engineering, which is pretty cool.
I had some hope that the Azerite buffs would allow us to customize the damage and play style of our builds a little bit more.

So far the ones I've seen haven't been that exciting. Maybe at higher ilevels they will get better plus stacking and other buffs might help.

I really wanted to build a MM hunter who was mobile and fast - with some decent damage. I'm sad that any kind of build like that seems to have been nerfed in order to force a slower pace.

My new main is a secret. I'm afraid if I say anything is fun it will get whacked hard with the nerf bat. I'm kidding. A little.
Bellular ranks Marksmanship as the worst ranged spec just ahead of Shadow Priest due to its boring playstyle and lack of unique gameplay.
I would like to recommend that as a Marksman, our class fantasy not be diluted down to simply aiming and shooting.

Marksmen are able to shoot arrows with unique properties in many fantasy and action movie settings (think Hawkeye).
Exploring that fantasy with a mixture of shots is something that Marksman SHOULD have as part of its core fantasy due to the lack of variability and synergy between abilities in the current iteration.

Old ranged Survival had GOOD qualities, which should allow us to have some inspiration from a beloved spec for MM to thrive in.

I understand the disinterest in the team of homogenizing SV and MM with class fantasy. They want unique characters based on spec. I think that is achievable for MM with the current SV retaining it's identity as a poison, explosive, and trap throwing melee character.

Marksmanship's fantasy just needs some synergy between abilities. So here's where I start my suggestion section:

Aimed Shot
Unchanged from live game.
Reasoning: I think this ability is a great way to nuke down priority targets. It should be strong enough to do so for PvE fights and is a useful ability.

Black Arrow
20 second cooldown, Cost 20 focus, instant cast
Shoot a tar and poison tipped arrow at the enemy, causing them to take damage over 18 seconds. When it deals damage, this ability has an 8% chance to cause Lock & Load, causing Aimed Shot to gain an additional charge and be instant cast.
Reasoning: This ability was instrumental in allowing some synergy between abilities in old SV, and would allow us to have some degree of RNG in the spec to spice things up when we get frequent procs. I think L&L as a talent could just improve the proc chance instead of giving us the proc outright.

Steady Shot
1.75 second cast, Restores 15 focus, Usable while moving
Fire a shot at the enemy, dealing x damage and restoring 15 focus. If used twice in a row, will apply Steady Focus to the Hunter, reducing the ability's cast time by 0.25 seconds for 8 seconds (is not removed on using another ability).
Reasoning: Steady Shot is just not synergetic with any abilities in BFA except through talents. There should be some sort of baseline synergy between abilities or within a single ability for good design imo.

Arcane Shot
Unchanged from live - still benefits from Precise Shots
Reasoning: This is our focus manager at high levels. Something we use after Aimed Shots but that also allows us to keep ourselves below focus cap.

Vile Shot
Instant cast, 8 second recharge, Restores 10 focus per target hit
Same as the BM Chimaera Shot talent in that it fires two arrows, generating 10 focus per target hit.
Reasoning: Rapid Fire is a cool ability, but it causes so much down time in the rotation. We need a "signature ability" (and you can call it whatever you like, Explosive Shot, Chimaera, Raining Death Shot) that restores some focus on use that allows us to manage our focus more readily.

I think having the above abilities would give us a lot to manage. And there is some RNG, some steady building and spending, and some flavor/dark ranger vibes going on. We just need to have some spice and synergy!
My suggestion is to revert to Legion and drop down a well itemized 110 fire mage. You don't even have to do that you can drop down a 100. Then just run around questing with that. Go look at your stats for fire mage pve performance, then go look at participation. This is where you went wrong with it my dudes.

It's the flow.
It's ok, MM just got a 3% buff. Everything is fine now.

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