[Feedback] Fury Warrior: Rotation & Talents

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THIS HAS BEEN UPDATED TO REFLECT THE MAY 25TH and 31ST PATCH CHANGES.

PLEASE REFER TO THE BLUE POST IN THE COMMENTS. POSTS PRIOR TO THE BLUE POST IN THIS THREAD MAY NO LONGER BE RELEVANT TO THE CURRENT STATE OF FURY WARRIOR DESIGN AND BALANCE.


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Following the revamp for Fury Warrior that has hit the Beta servers I am amending my original posts in this thread. While I believe there is room for improvement, I also believe that this incarnation of Fury Warrior is considerably more 'complete' than the it's predecessor which consisted of Legion design minus any of our Artefact and Legendary bonuses.

A quick summary of the changes (May 25th):

    - Enrage has been reworked. It now provides a flat 25% haste and 10% movement speed bonus. It's unclear at this time how this scales with our mastery. On the Beta currently Mastery still provides a flat +X% damage increase while enraged. However the duration of enrage is back to 4 seconds and appears to have that duration increased with Mastery(?). Unclear about this at this time. Could be a bug or some other unintended interaction.
    - Enrage is now proc'd by rampage and a flat 30% chance to enrage when casting BT.
    - Rage generation is significantly higher
    - RB is reworked to have 2 charges and chance for resetting the cool down and no longer required enrage to be cast
    - Execute now generates 20 rage but has a 6 second CD
    - Recklessness is now 1.5min CD and doubles the rage generation of abilities used during Recklessness. It also provides 20% critical strike chance.
    - No longer takes additional damage from Enrage, but also loses bonus 15% HP from Titan's Grip.


A quick summary of the changes (May 31st):
- The lv 45 talent row is designed to 'speed up the rotation'. Talents have been changed to Inner rage (moved from lv 90), Sudden Death and Furious Slash. Inner rage reduces the recharge time on Raging Blow, Sudden Death reset the CD of execute and make it available above 20% and Furious Slash has the old Frenzy baked into it.
- Massacre has been changed to allow Execute at 35%
- The lv 90 row has been reworked into an 'AoE' row. Talents have been changed to Bladestorm, Dragon Roar and Meat Cleaver. Bladestorm has it's duration changed to 3seconds on a 1min cd. Dragon Roar has been reworked to be more like Odyn's Fury. Meat Cleaver buffs WW and the old Meat Cleave buff still exits but has simply been renamed to 'Whirlwind' for simplicity.
- The lv 100 row modifies or adds damage bonuses. Talents have been changed to Reckless Abandon, Anger Management and Siegebreaker. RA is unchanged and AM is the same as always. Siegebreaker is very similar to Colossus smash.

There are a slew of minor changes and talent tweaks. I recommend everyone familiarise themselves with all of these. I will not state them here as this will make the post too long.

To follow the original format of the thread I will post what I think is good and bad about the spec and then talk about talents and abilities that are weird or need improvement.

THE GOOD:

    - Retains the core structure of building rage with BT and RB and spending rage on Rampages
    - The Whirlwind cleaving buff is more engaging than just spamming WW in sustained AoE scenarios
    - Rage generation means we cast Rampage a lot more often
    - We can now generate Rage while AoEing through WW which makes cleaving Rampages much more viable
    - We have a lot of haste built into the spec base line now which gives us our fast and furious class identity even at low levels of gear.


THE BAD:

    - Still reliant on talents such as Bladestorm to do competitive AoE, although now there is a dedicated 'AoE' row which makes it easier to choose Bladestorm without losing single target damage.
    - Holy auto attack damage Batman. Currently white hitting is doing ~50% of our damage. Not only does this lower the skill cap of the class, it also doesn't scale with additional targets.
    - Thematically, Dragon Roar and Siegebreaker are weird abilities. Dragon Roar feels like it belongs in Protection and Siegebreaker is a clone of Arm's major cooldown, Colossus Smash.
Talents:

Lv 15: War Machine, Endless Rage, Fresh Meat.

War Machine is now the same as Arms (rage on kill + movement speed) but also has the old Endless Rage built into it (+% rage generated from auto hits). Endless Rage is now the Legendary Helm bonus (+rage when enraged) and Fresh Meat now increases the chance of BT to proc enrage by 15% and increases the heal from 4% hp to 5% hp. These talents are all nice quality of life talents and which one ends up being stronger will probably depend on final tuning. Nothing really to say here, although I feel like Endless Rage and Fresh Meat are perhaps too similar. Ultimately they both result in more up time on Enrage.

Lv 30: Double Time, Impending Victory, Storm Bolt

Our utility row, same as in the previous build.

Lv 45: Inner rage, Sudden Death, Furious Slash

The stated goal of this row is to speed up the rotation. Inner rage now reduces the recharge time on Raging Blow and Sudden Death allows Execute to be used above 20%. Both of these talents increase the rage generation of the class, while Sudden Death adds some randomness to the class. Both of these abilities can also be cleaved via Whirlwind which makes them scale with multiple targets.

Furious slash is still a weird talent. On pure single target it simply replaces Whirlwind in our single target rotation. However, as soon as any AoE or cleave is added, it is very hard to fit FS into the rotation. I strongly suggest that Blizzard move Frenzy onto BT and dump FS all together.

LV 60: Furious Charge, Bounding Stride, Warpaint

Unchanged except warpaint now grants 10% damage reduction while enraged and will likely be a go to talent. Blizzard say they're aiming for 60% up time on enrage and our ability to ensure we have enrage up when hard hitting mechanics are going off is non existent without wasting a lot of dps by holding rage. This means that you might not have Warpaint when you need it. This is probably a needed thing to make sure this talent row is competitive.

Lv 75: Carnage, Massacre, Frothing Berserker

Carnage now reduces Rampage cost by 10 (85->75) and increases rampage damage by 10%. Massacre has the same effect as live. Frothing now simply increases the cost of Rampage by 10 (85->95) and increases both damage and haste by 10% when you use it.

Massacre allows the use of execute below 35%, and also resets the cool down of the ability when it procs. The value of this talent will depend on how much extra dps we gain when entering the 'execute phase'. If execute is a significant dps gain than this talent might end up being pretty desirable on raid encounters where the last phase is the hardest. Otherwise both Carnage and Frothing have increased value in the execute phase with the new design. Which ever talent is used on this row largely depends on training. I suggest that perhaps Massacre might also increase the damage of execute by a % in order to enhance our ability to do high dps in when the boss is sub 35% on fights where this is desirable.

Lv 90: Meat Cleaver, Dragon Roar, Bladestorm

Meat Cleaver grants WW a 10% chance to proc enrage and increases it's rage generation by 1. This is a nice hybrid talent on an otherwise AoE focused row, since it has nice bonuses for ST but also scales with multiple targets.

Dragon Roar has been redesigned to be more like Odyn's Fury is on live. The cool down has been increased to 40s and the damage increased proportionately. Additionally the ability now grants rage. The idea is that we'll use every 2nd DR with Recklessness, and the rage generation is a nice response to criticisms that the ability felt bad to use inside Recklessness due to potentially wasted rage generation.

Similarly, Bladestorm has had it's duration shortened to 3 seconds (so it might more easily fix inside an enrage window, although not perfectly) and generates 20 rage. Again, this means using it during Recklessness feels better since that rage generation is doubled. However it is now on a 1min cd and probably won't really line up with Recklessness often without Anger Management.

This talent row feels a little weird. Dragon Roar has been designed as a pseudo Odyn's Fury (which is nice) but at the expense of Bloodbath (which makes more sense for Fury thematically, while DR is more of a Protection style ability). I would like to see Bloodbath returned in Dragon Roar's place, as a large AoE 360 degree nuke followed by a powerful bleed (ie: basically what Odyn's Fury is).

Additionally it's odd that both Arms and Fury both have Bladestorm yet these two abilities are different. They have a different duration and the Fury version generates rage. I'm okay with the changes to Bladestorm in the May 31st build (even if it wouldn't have been my preferred solution) but I find this to be weird and think it should maybe get a different name and animation.
Talents (cont.):

LV 100: Reckless Abandon, Anger Management, Siegebreaker

The lv 100 row is now focused on improving our cooldowns. Reckless Abandon still increases Recklessness duration by 2 seconds (from 10 to 12) and provides 100 rage. Currently RA feels weak since increasing Recklessness from 10 to 12 seconds isn't overly strong, since Recklessness itself isn't overly strong.

Anger Management allows (in theory) Recklessness to line up with Bladestorm since it only affects Recklessness for Fury.

Siegebreaker is a clone of CS on a 30 second cooldown which actually makes it a bit better than Arm's CS. This feels a bit weird that we can talent into a better version of Arm's main cooldown. The design of the ability is that you can fit two Rampages into the Siegebreaker +% damage buff, or three rampages with Recklessness.

If this is the intended play-style, I can spot one flaw in it. Largely that you're going to always want to press Siege Breaker while enraged for that sweet mastery bonus. This shouldn't be *overly* hard during the regular rotation, however it becomes a challenge when you add Recklessness into the mix. Essentially, with a 4 second enrage, we'll need to precast Rampage, then cast Recklessness, then cast Siegebreaker, then enrage will fall off and we'll have to spend a few of our GCDs during Recklessness+Siegebreaker without enrage up as we quickly build up for another Rampage.

Reckless Abandon solves this issue, however the sucess of one talent not be dependent on a second talent.

I suggest that Siegebreaker provides enrage.

Comments and suggestions:

The following abilities are either overly weak/strong or counter intuitive:

    - Recklessness. Recklessness seems like a weak ability on a 90 second cool down. During Recklessness your rage generation is doubled. This means you spend a significant part of the cooldown pressing Rampage, which feels good and keeps our enrage up time at 100% for the burst window. However, the effectiveness of Recklessness is greatly reduced if you don't have two charges of raging blow going in. If you are to hold the use of RB in preparation for Recklessness this leaves you in a ~10 second down time period where you have little to do and doesn't feel fun.
    - Suggestion: Some combination of making Recklessness stronger (through increasing the existing +% crit component or adding a +% damage component) and Reducing the cooldown of Recklessness. It's nice that Recklessness lines up with Bladestorm now, but these talents have no synergy since all Recklessness can do for the talent is give it +20% crit. Additionally, when you activate Recklessness it should grant you two charges of Raging Blow.


    - Our AoE is lacking. We have a nice mechanism for sustained AoE through Whirlwind (the buff) which saw some really nice buffs in the May 21st build and are very exciting. However we need some kind of way to do high burst AoE. This was mitigated somewhat by the talent tree rework in the May 31st build that makes it easy to choose Bladestorm without losing too much ST damage (depending on the tuning of DR and Meat Cleaver). The other talents on this row have potential uses outside of pure AoE so it is possible that Bladestorm still ends up a weak choice in real encounters.

      - Auto attack damage is far too high. We want to do high DPS but from pressing our buttons. If our auto attack damage remains so high it will be hard for Blizzard to make any of our skills do enough damage so that they feel meaningful to use.
      - Suggestion: Auto attacks do not benefit from the +% damage component of our Mastery/Enrage.


    [ul]- Execute phase: The execute phase is now much more logical than it was during Legion where the conflict between spending rage on Executes and spending rage on Rampages was only meaningfully resolved via Massacre which made the talent feel mandatory. From my testing I'm not a fan of the 'supplementary' style of Execute that Blizzard have created in this version. I think most Fury warriors would welcome a return to spamming executes sub 20% as this is an iconic part of the class, rather than just a new button to weave in every 6 seconds.
    -Suggestion: Remove the cool down on Execute. If needed tone down the rage (maybe 20->15) generation. Alternatively, consider replacing Raging Blow with Execute sub 20%. By this I mean, the Raging Blow button actually turns into the Execute button. This gives Execute the same charge and recharge system of Raging Blow. I would also suggest that you rework Inner Rage to give Raging Blow / Execute a third charge or a faster recharge time. This would be a pretty fun talent.
Final thoughts:

I personally believe that every class and specialisation should be able to participate meaningfully in all aspects of the game without relying on any ‘key talents’. This means that you need to be able to AoE, and do Single Target damage whilst having the tools to stay alive at a sufficient base line level without needing a talent that locks you into being able to do some things but not others. I think this is what players mean when they say that they would like talents to go back towards Mists of Pandaria style design where talents were flavours and the ‘cherry on top’ rather than gating what players feel are key abilities for that class to function.

Fury on Beta is in a much better state since the May 25th patch. However there are still issues that need to be fixed before we can call it finished.
Well written and I agree on a lot of points.

Fury has always been about the raging berseker who threw caution to the wind. He is the barbarian, the hulk, the crazied maniac of the group that you don't trust but you heard he killed a 1 Thousand enemy soldiers before being found half dead sleeping next to an oak tree.

now onto the critic

05/18/2018 09:22 PMPosted by Euphanicen
- Fresh Meat has limited use in a PvE scenario since typically the early portion of the fight is the easiest and players typically choose to optimise their character for what will help them in the hard part of the fight (which is often at the end).
- Suggestion: Reverse the effect such that the talent provides +60% chance to BT crit at below 20% hp. This would also help address the problem I outlined above where the execute phase has a hard time casting executes and also keeping up enrage.


I would rather this be baseline to help with execute range. Its so needed

05/18/2018 09:23 PMPosted by Euphanicen
Fury warrior AoE is very weak currently on beta due to a) no hard hitting AOE abilities like Bladestorm or Odyn’s Fury and b) very low rage generation when AoEing resulting in very few Rampages being meat-cleaved.
- Suggestion: Return Bladestorm to Fury’s baseline kit thus ensuring that the spec can be more versatile and competitive in raiding and m+ environments. Add a new talent in its place that makes Bladestorm stronger in some way or perhaps buffs Meat Cleaving so that we have the flexibility to specialise in AoE for fights where it is useful, but avoiding a situation where we have nothing to offer in AoE situations.


I dont mind this as a talent to be honest but it should just trigger enrage. Its a crime that it doesnt.

05/18/2018 09:22 PMPosted by Euphanicen
Endless Rage
- On live this talent is fairly weak and is only used on fights where War Machine can’t be used at all. The talent is barely better than Fresh Meat, which as I outlined above is fairly weak.
- Suggestion: Increase the bonus rage generation from 30% to 50% and see how that goes. Even then that might be not enough, but it’s a step in the right direction.


It only feels this way because the rest of the attacks dont produce much rage and there is a lack of haste. If anything this needs a buff or rage generation needs a higher bump. If anything the underwhelming of this talent indicated so many issues centred around rage
05/18/2018 09:22 PMPosted by Euphanicen
- Outburst
- Currently outburst doesn’t provide a meaningful benefit in any type of game content. Enrage uptime is primarily provided by Rampages, such that the role berserker rage used to fill isn’t as useful as it has been in previous expansion to provide some bad luck protection.
- Suggestion: Return the ability to provide enrage to Berserker Rage as base line and remove the talent all together.


A very underwhelming talent. Now if it said enrage now does 100% attack power and berserker rage triggers enrage would that be better?

05/18/2018 09:22 PMPosted by Euphanicen
Avatar
- While 20% damage for 20 seconds is a decent cooldown, it’s another cooldown on the GCD that feelsbad to use.
- Suggestion: Remove Avatar from the Fury Warrior toolkit and buff Recklessness to compensate as suggested above. Avatar recently got a rework for Protection Warrior and makes sense to be a Prot specific cooldown at this state. Fury Warrior doesn’t need this cooldown if Recklessness (and Bloodbath) are desirable to use and thus removing this ability helps reduce the number of empty GCDs spent on casting buffs.


Honestly it doesnt feel very fury like. It now feels like a prot thing or even an arms thing. I say remove it

05/18/2018 09:22 PMPosted by Euphanicen
Carnage
- Carnage is probably undertuned compared to Frothing and Massacre since even during T21 when the set bonuses for Fury warrior made casting a lot of Rampages in short period of time desirable, this talent was still not useful enough to use when compared to Frothing.
- Suggestion: Add some version of the current T21 2pc/4pc set bonuses to Carnage so that it not only reduces the rage cost but it also makes Rampage do more damage either in the form of a bleed or being stronger to use during Recklessness.


My biggest issue with carnage is not carnage itself. Its the fact there is nothing to support this build. Froathing berseker is just too good.

05/18/2018 09:22 PMPosted by Euphanicen
Frenzy (and Furious Slash in general)
- The bad luck protection provided by Furious Slash isn’t very useful. The duration of the buff is short enough that it often falls off between casts of Furious Slash and thus doesn’t stack up and the +15% chance to crit on Blood Thirst isn’t overly useful as if one or two casts of Bloodthirst don’t critical strike you’re going to be able to Rampage again. The version of Fury in Legion that relies on haste (and thus rage genration) to cast Rampages to provide enrage was a sucessful one because it is less reliant on RNG.
- Suggestion: Remove the +15% crit buff to FS all together and replace it with the Frenzy effect. Pressing Furious Slash once every 15 seconds to keep the buff up should be pretty managable and the haste buff is a more meaningful contribution to keeping up enrage than the current +% Blood Thirst crit chance. This allows for a new talent to replace Frenzy on this row which will be more competitive with Inner Rage and Bloodbath.


I think this is a good idea. Make frenzy baseline and make furious attack more meaningful. I still wish Raging blow would go back to 1 stack per enrage but big damage allowing a build that mimiced CS window.

05/18/2018 09:22 PMPosted by Euphanicen
Dragon Roar
- The damage component of Dragon Roar is fairly weak and doesn’t scale with our primary cooldown (Recklessness). The +15% damage component is nice however in a world where we have so many cooldowns already, it will be very difficult to utilise this short 6 second damage buff.
- Suggestion: Substantially increase the damage of the ability and remove the ‘always critical strike’ component so that we can use it with Recklessness. Increase the +% damage component to 8 or 10 seconds. Increase the cooldown to 30 seconds in return for makign the ability stronger and so it lines up nicely with Recklessness. This ability could feel like Odyn’s Fury does now on Live if we are able to use it during Recklessness effectively.


I really like Dragon Roar... more than even bloodbath. It feels more fury like but i agree the damage buff feels pointless. If anything I would have this baseline on a 45 sec CD. Does big damage, Aoe 1.5 sec Daze, no rage cost but require enrage but thats it. Then I will make a talent says meat cleaver reduce Dragon Roar's CD by 3 seconds.
05/18/2018 09:23 PMPosted by Euphanicen
Reckless Abandon
- Reckless Abandon isn’t strictly overpowered, but it feels necessary to use to make the spec fun to play. Pressing Recklessness and then immediately using a Rampage gives us the opportunity to use two of our big hitting damage ‘spenders’ during Recklessness (assuming rage generation is brought up from where it is now) which feels fun, and it also ensures we have enrage for the duration of our Recklessness window.
- Suggestion: Give the +100 rage component to Recklessness baseline and then add additional affects to RA to compensate.


This talent is really good and allows a build like Froathing berseker. If anything the other talents need alterations so this build has competiton.

Recklessness should be 100% increase in Critical Strike and 20% increase in Critical Strike Damage. Other talents can reduce the cd...
It only feels this way because the rest of the attacks dont produce much rage and there is a lack of haste. If anything this needs a buff or rage generation needs a higher bump. So many issues here


My criticism of Endless rage is a mathematical one. Simply put the additional rage generation from auto attacks doesn't add up to a lot of extra damage, since on live most of our rage generation comes from abilities (BT, RB) and legendaries/artifact skills. It's only used as a last resort since Warmachine can't be triggered on many fights and Fresh Meat is useless in basically every situation.

I really like Dragon Roar... more than even bloodbath. It feels more fury like but i agree the damage buff feels pointless. If anything I would have this baseline on a 45 sec CD. Does big damage, Aoe 1.5 sec Daze, no rage cost but require enrage but thats it. Then I will make a talent says meat cleaver reduce Dragon Roar's CD by 3 seconds.


I also like Dragon Roar and enjoyed using it with the IR build that was popular at the start of Legion. Again, my criticism here is a mechanical one. It's a problem that the skill doesn't scale with our main damage cooldown. This is a big reason why the skill was used in the first tier and then wasn't seen again for the rest of the expansion. Simply put, it just got out scaled.

I think removing the guaranteed critical strike component of Dragon Roar and increasing it's base line damage to compensate is needed so that it keeps scaling. I also think that in the dps-cds-on-the-gcd world we live in that the duration of the buff needs to be extended. This is because if we use DR and the buff triggers, we waste 1 global waiting for our next skill, and then we use another global for Recklessness and the buff is already half way gone. This is the reason Recklessness was buffed by 2 seconds base line, to compensate for lost effective up time. Dragon Roar needs the same treatment. Additionally, it's a much better skill to use if we can first Recklessness and then Dragon Roar, buffing the Dragon Roar with the Recklessness.
05/19/2018 09:42 AMPosted by Euphanicen
It only feels this way because the rest of the attacks dont produce much rage and there is a lack of haste. If anything this needs a buff or rage generation needs a higher bump. So many issues here


My criticism of Endless rage is a mathematical one. Simply put the additional rage generation from auto attacks doesn't add up to a lot of extra damage, since on live most of our rage generation comes from abilities (BT, RB) and legendaries/artifact skills. It's only used as a last resort since Warmachine can't be triggered on many fights and Fresh Meat is useless in basically every situation.

I really like Dragon Roar... more than even bloodbath. It feels more fury like but i agree the damage buff feels pointless. If anything I would have this baseline on a 45 sec CD. Does big damage, Aoe 1.5 sec Daze, no rage cost but require enrage but thats it. Then I will make a talent says meat cleaver reduce Dragon Roar's CD by 3 seconds.


I also like Dragon Roar and enjoyed using it with the IR build that was popular at the start of Legion. Again, my criticism here is a mechanical one. It's a problem that the skill doesn't scale with our main damage cooldown. This is a big reason why the skill was used in the first tier and then wasn't seen again for the rest of the expansion. Simply put, it just got out scaled.

I think removing the guaranteed critical strike component of Dragon Roar and increasing it's base line damage to compensate is needed so that it keeps scaling. I also think that in the dps-cds-on-the-gcd world we live in that the duration of the buff needs to be extended. This is because if we use DR and the buff triggers, we waste 1 global waiting for our next skill, and then we use another global for Recklessness and the buff is already half way gone. This is the reason Recklessness was buffed by 2 seconds base line, to compensate for lost effective up time. Dragon Roar needs the same treatment. Additionally, it's a much better skill to use if we can first Recklessness and then Dragon Roar, buffing the Dragon Roar with the Recklessness.


Yeh i think removing the critical strike component of dragon roar is really needed. Whilst it makes it different, it directly clashes with recklessness. It should just be some massive attack. I would choose this over bloodbath and avat. That said I don’t like the Colossus Smash component ... should be just an aoe,
how about this:

Baseline
Bloodthrist - critical strike chance increased to 60% at 30% enemy health
Raging blow - gains 2 stack during enrage. Can’t be used unless enraged.
Furious slash - baseline frenzy buff and gives 5 rage
Whirlwind - same as thunder clap produces rage per enemy hit

Talents
15 rage - war machine, furious slash gives 2 extra stacks of frenzy, berserker rage give 30 rage and enrages
30 utility - double charge, bounding stride, storm bolt
45 aoe - ww hits twice if more than 3 targets, bladestorm that triggers enrage, dragon roar does massive aoe and triggers enrage. 20 sec CD
60 healing - charge heal, impending victory, enraged regen CD reduction
75 rampage - carnage, Enrage has a chance to reduce rampage to 30 rage, froathing berserker
90 rotation - inner rage (also removes stack mechanic), bloodthirst scales with mastery but CD increased by 2 seconds, wrecking ball ( cause some people like it)
100 CD - reckless abandon, enrage gives 120% attack damage and reduces recklessness CD by 3 seconds, bloodbath (buffed) acts like a colossal smash window.
Good set of posts. I agree with all your points. My highlights of the issues with Fury now on Beta-

Rage gen needs to go up across the board. Increase attack speed to 100% during enrage. On live, ~2/3rds of our rage gen is passive from auto attacks. This is because of enrage and the trait that makes off hand attacks not miss.

I'd just change Dragon Roar to Odyn's Fury at this point (and I'd move things around so all AoE talents on a row).

Ditch Avatar completely, leave it to Prot. Buff Reck as you mentioned because it's a weak CD now, especially on a 1min CD (and on the GCD to boot).

Bladestorm should enrage by default. Otherwise it will have to be tuned retardly high and will make it awkward to set up (because you will want to be at least enraged when you use it, preferably also with Reck).

Frenzy is fine but needs a different trigger/extension. I'd suggest Blood Thirst. But it could work if FS just gave the full haste buff; the crit BT buff is too small to bother with IMO. The spec plays better with more haste regardless IMO, so making this 'easy' to trigger and keep up at 100% is a better way to go with this talent. Heck, it could just give passive haste and it would be fine too (boring, but effective).

Agree with dumping Outburst and making Berserker Rage enrage by default. It's just underwhelming and the gaps in Enrage uptime outside of Execute aren't that big with 6s Enrage.

WW should give rage per target hit beyond 1 by default, in substantial amounts to keep enrage up without dumb luck/Reck.

I like a talent on the 'AoE' row to incorporate the WW belt effect, and I'm actually OK with a proc based Wrecking Ball build where it buffs WW enough to make it useful in ST, I'm thinking FoB style interaction. Right now there are no procs to adapt to in the rotation really.

Love the idea of inverting Fresh Meat, however it might be too strong for that tier. Really it feels like something BT should do by default to keep Execute possible. Massacre can die or modify Execute phase in some other way (Sudden Death perhaps), but you shouldn't have to take a talent to have your execute phase even make sense/flow/be sustainable (pick your adjective, I'm trying to avoid the 'c-word' here).

And I like Ryuku's 'themes' for row, you can quibble about what to put in the 'holes' made with the talent removal or changes, but the jist of what he's trying to setup I agree with.
I'd just change Dragon Roar to Odyn's Fury at this point (and I'd move things around so all AoE talents on a row).


Yeh I think ultimately if it's Dragon Roar or Odyn's Fury we're looking at a skill that serves a pretty similar role to the class. I would like Dragon Roar a lot if it wasn't a 100% crit chance and did more damage because then you can go Recklessness -> DR as your first global and then the 6 second DR buff will line up nicely with the remaining Recklessness buff.

Bladestorm should enrage by default. Otherwise it will have to be tuned retardly high and will make it awkward to set up (because you will want to be at least enraged when you use it, preferably also with Reck).


I know why you want this but I think that with not too much haste you will easily be able to Recklessness->BT->Bladestorm in the duration. If we can get an on demand enrage back in the form of berserker rage granting it baseline then this is also useful in this scenario. I don't know if Bladestorm granting enrage is the only solution to this problem.

Frenzy is fine but needs a different trigger/extension. I'd suggest Blood Thirst. But it could work if FS just gave the full haste buff; the crit BT buff is too small to bother with IMO. The spec plays better with more haste regardless IMO, so making this 'easy' to trigger and keep up at 100% is a better way to go with this talent. Heck, it could just give passive haste and it would be fine too (boring, but effective).


Yeh and considering Fury was really weak at the start of Legion due to low haste, this could be a nice way to bake a base line level of haste into the class. Would be a welcome quality of life change.
05/20/2018 07:13 AMPosted by Euphanicen
I know why you want this but I think that with not too much haste you will easily be able to Recklessness->BT->Bladestorm in the duration. If we can get an on demand enrage back in the form of berserker rage granting it baseline then this is also useful in this scenario. I don't know if Bladestorm granting enrage is the only solution to this problem.


Yes that could work too (enrage on zerker rage if it's off the GCD). I mean, if you want it to be a 'burst AoE' talent, it needs to not be hard to setup, otherwise it has to be planned if it doesn't enrage by itself. And if/when the CD aligns with Reck, well, then it definitely something we are going to want to stack somehow, even if it means clipping a bit of duration. Haste will be low at first, but maybe if Frenzy was also easier to get rolling and extend that could help too, even without Bladestorm enraging by default.
And if/when the CD aligns with Reck


Yeh I completely forgot about this aspect. One of the other reasons Arms plays nicer than Fury in AoE situations is that their main DPS cd is 45 seconds to bladestorms 90 seconds. It would a nice thing for Fury to get the same treatment.
@Euphanicen THANK YOU for taking the time to look at all of our problems and put it into one post. u hit the nail on the head on most if not all of our problems
Underpowered Talents:

-
- Frenzy (and Furious Slash in general)
    - The bad luck protection provided by Furious Slash isn’t very useful. The duration of the buff is short enough that it often falls off between casts of Furious Slash and thus doesn’t stack up and the +15% chance to crit on Blood Thirst isn’t overly useful as if one or two casts of Bloodthirst don’t critical strike you’re going to be able to Rampage again. The version of Fury in Legion that relies on haste (and thus rage genration) to cast Rampages to provide enrage was a sucessful one because it is less reliant on RNG.
    - Suggestion: Remove the +15% crit buff to FS all together and replace it with the Frenzy effect. Pressing Furious Slash once every 15 seconds to keep the buff up should be pretty managable and the haste buff is a more meaningful contribution to keeping up enrage than the current +% Blood Thirst crit chance. This allows for a new talent to replace Frenzy on this row which will be more competitive with Inner Rage and Bloodbath.
.[/ul]


heres the thing. I take Frenzy simply because the inner rage nerf is too much. and that frenzy is the only way to make fury feel "good"
I personally thought Dragon's roar would take Outburst's spot. it would seem like an "inbetween" to avatar and Wrecking ball
I personally thought Dragon's roar would take Outburst's spot. it would seem like an "inbetween" to avatar and Wrecking ball


This isn't a bad idea, but I think that Dragon Roar is just cumbersome if it's treated as a dps cool-down due to it's +% damage component.

This is alleviated somewhat if the 100% crit aspect of the ability is removed since you can use it inside Recklessness without a) wasting a gcd inside recklessness or b) wasting half your DR buff by casting Recklessness afterwards.

Still, I think many in the warrior theory crafting community would rather see it removed all together. I'm not sure I agree with this, but I think if it stays it needs to be reworked.
05/20/2018 10:44 PMPosted by Coasterslol
@Euphanicen THANK YOU for taking the time to look at all of our problems and put it into one post. u hit the nail on the head on most if not all of our problems


Bravo on your post...BUT the Dev's really could give a rats !@# about feedback, no matter how constructive, resourceful, or enlightening it is. Egon said it himself that they have ignored warrior feedback. MAYBE just MAYBE they should actually listen to the constructive, reasoned, and solutions based comments of the folks that play the spec.

I have absolutely no faith that they will or that they will get tuning correct. It will probably be same ole, same ole. Second patch of the xpac , addressing the concerns as outlined above by some fantastic "were genius devs" comments.
15: Warmachine and Endless Rage work fine, replace fresh meat with a talent that causes execute to trigger the Furious Slash buff.

30: Replace Impending Victory with a talent that heals us during enrage. Other 2 are dandy.

45: WB needs to be changed to the Lego belt effect, Outburst needs to be made baseline, replace with a talent that duplicates the Legendary legs effect, make avatar part of Recklessness (or something to reduce the CD of Recklessness).

60: These are all fine.

75: Carnage needs to have the outrage effect tacked on, Massacre would synergize well with the talent I proposed in the 15 bracket, FB works well with RA already.

90: Frenzy needs to increase the damage of FS more, or have it produce 5 rage. Inner Rage needs to be brought back to 150% OR have its CD removed during Enrage. Bloodbath needs to be made part of recklessness.

100: RA - works fine. Replace Dragons Roar with juggernaut to work with the other execute based talents. Replace Bladestorm with Odyn's Fury.

Really fury is ok, honestly putting 5 rage on Furious Slash would fix A L O T of our issues.

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