[Feedback] Fury Warrior: Rotation & Talents

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05/30/2018 07:54 PMPosted by Throren
I hope avatar isnt removed from warriors as a whole. I always liked it as it allowed me play out my old WC3 Mountain King fantasy :(


It's baseline for Prot now.


Siegebreaker
Granted it is a talent, so this may or may not be considered a bad thing, but I do feel it's a little too "damage window"-centric, which it seemed like Fury had been trying to get away from and leave as Arms' wheelhouse.



Completely agree with this. I am dreading this talent making it to live in the same way I dread the similarly designed dark slash making to live for havoc DH. This "dps window" design is really not enjoyable and used far too often with dps classes. As always Archi is correct, leave that as an arms flavor of design and keep it away from fury.
I really liked how Sephuz pointed out the purpose to each talent tier, it really tells me that they know what they're doing.

My only complaint is that massacre isn't going to combo well with sudden death during the case in which the target drops below 35%. The sudden death procs would be dead weight in sub 35% phase since the purpose of SD is to add another button to the rotation above 35%.

Side note: Death Row (pvp talent) allowing you to execute someone at 25% hp should be modified to 40% if massacre is taken.

Siegebreaker sounds like another version of colossus smash, which isn't appealing to me at all. Unless the WOD siegebreaker verison was brought back (knockback), I would be fine taking that talent.

05/30/2018 07:13 PMPosted by Seph
Level 90 row: Meat Cleaver, Dragon Roar, Bladestorm – this row is primarily AOE


Just curious, are all 3 talent choices supposed to be AOE and ST friendly? Should I be casting Bladestorm or Dragon Roar in my ST rotation? If that's the case, I feel that meat cleaver will be lackluster in ST. However from what I've heard, WW is going to be your ST filler so I guess meat cleaver is designed for both ST and AOE? Not sure.
05/30/2018 08:07 PMPosted by Venusaur
05/30/2018 07:54 PMPosted by Throren
I hope avatar isnt removed from warriors as a whole. I always liked it as it allowed me play out my old WC3 Mountain King fantasy :(


It's baseline for Prot now.


Eh that kinda sucks

Avatar is based off of Mountain Kings who dual wielded hammers and axes. Doesnt really make sense for prot but hey.
Siegebreaker is literally avatar, but with a change of a name. If you were looking to get less cooldowns to stack so the silly "cooldowns on the global" thing you guys got going for BFA doesn't screw over specs with a lot of them, this is definetly not the right way to go with, ESPECIALLY, with you guys trying to make dragon roar the new Odyn's fury with the exception of Dragon Roar being on the global cooldown, which is extremely ridiculous.

I like the new playstyle, I kind of like the new execute although I wish with enrage it could go down to 3s instead of 4s.

I like the new massacre, but I do wish that Carnage, for example, increased rampage damage more than 10%, it should be 15%, in my opinion, or lower the rage cost of Rampage even more.
05/30/2018 08:18 PMPosted by Throren
05/30/2018 08:07 PMPosted by Venusaur
...

It's baseline for Prot now.


Eh that kinda sucks

Avatar is based off of Mountain Kings who dual wielded hammers and axes. Doesnt really make sense for prot but hey.


How about a glyph that gives Reck the Avatar animation?
I'm surprised about the negative comments regarding siege breaker. It's basically a throw back to the MoP design for Fury Warrior with the good version of CS which was a dps cool down rather than the bad version of CS for Arms which was buff management.

05/30/2018 08:14 PMPosted by Véngeancé
Completely agree with this. I am dreading this talent making it to live in the same way I dread the similarly designed dark slash making to live for havoc DH. This "dps window" design is really not enjoyable and used far too often with dps classes. As always Archi is correct, leave that as an arms flavor of design and keep it away from fury.


Can you explain why you don't think it's enjoyable. Personally, I quite like it. Practically, I think it makes a lot of sense too. Players tell Blizzard that they want options for doing priority damage, which is needed in many raiding encounters. Low-ish cool down abilities that grant a short burst window serve this purpose reasonably well.

Of course there is a balance, and I know that many top-end warriors don't enjoy the current dependence on Battle-cry on live. This is both because a) a huge amount of our over all damage is tied to BC meaning when it's not up, we do very low damage and b) the nature of CDR means you can't really hold BC at all for when it's needed so it loses a lot of flexibility and becomes a press on cool down button.

Siegebreaker seems like a really good option for Fury Warrior to have.
05/30/2018 08:31 PMPosted by Euphanicen
Practically, I think it makes a lot of sense too. Players tell Blizzard that they want options for doing priority damage, which is needed in many raiding encounters. Low-ish cool down abilities that grant a short burst window serve this purpose reasonably well.

That's a good rationalization, but is such an impractical consideration in reality. At 30s CD, it's a rotational and used on cooldown, not a "raid encounter priority damage" button.

I can't even remember the last encounter where that was a practical reality - maybe Spine of Deathwing. The only thing that comes close in recent memory is Mythic Varimathras adds, but they need to die within 3-4 GCDs anyway, making a 10s buff incredibly wasted on them.

Honestly, Siegebreaker is closer in functionality to Battle Cry on live - having a similar cooldown, duration, and function. Any currently raiding Fury Warrior can attest that Battle Cry is not used "for priority damage", it's used strictly on cooldown, as much as possible, to maintain tempo.
Interesting changes, I like your thoughts and reasoning on the cooldowns. I'm not sure if I'm fully behind the basically Colossal Smash window we're getting, but fury is probably the class it would feel best on so I'm not opposed to it.

Regarding Dragon's Roar, as someone else said, it just really doesn't fit the theme of a warrior (in fact this made me think there should be a Dragonknight class, so I posted on reddit about it lol) but you're correct in trying to make it feel more like Odyn's fury. Personally I'd prefer it if you just put Odyn's fury there instead of Dragon's Roar, because it better fits the theme of what is a Warrior.

As far as animation goes for that ability, someone else mentioned Bloodbath's animation, and I think Bloodbath's animation is definitely better than Odyn's Fury or Dragon Roar's, so perhaps you could put that animation in place of the other.

And finally, like many other Warriors I see, I would still like to see Single Minded Fury come back. Perhaps you could replace the Furious Slash talent (I hate this ability, as do most players I think) with the Single Minded Fury talent, and balance it into the idea of "speeding up or adding to rotation", where in this case it should? lead more towards speeding up, or maybe it can add some procs to the class?
05/30/2018 07:54 PMPosted by Throren
I hope avatar isnt removed from warriors as a whole. I always liked it as it allowed me play out my old WC3 Mountain King fantasy :(


Blue post says its only removed for Fury, still baseline for Prot and a talent for Arms it looks like.
05/30/2018 08:57 PMPosted by Ramayana
Blue post says its only removed for Fury, still baseline for Prot and a talent for Arms it looks like.

It will likely go away for Arms as well, given that the same basic problems and reasons to remove it exist on both specs.

From a thematic standpoint, I don't think Arms or Fury should be able to talent into Prots major CD, just like I don't think Arms or Prot should be able to talent Recklessness. Spells being unique to a spec is what makes the spec distinct.

It's also why I don't really care for Siegebreaker. It may be a strong, interesting ability with a lot of synergy, but I don't think I like the idea of Fury being able to talent into what is ostensibly a better version of Arms major cooldown.
05/30/2018 08:37 PMPosted by Archimtiros
05/30/2018 08:31 PMPosted by Euphanicen
Practically, I think it makes a lot of sense too. Players tell Blizzard that they want options for doing priority damage, which is needed in many raiding encounters. Low-ish cool down abilities that grant a short burst window serve this purpose reasonably well.

That's a good rationalization, but is such an impractical consideration in reality. At 30s CD, it's a rotational and used on cooldown, not a "raid encounter priority damage" button.

I can't even remember the last encounter where that was a practical reality - maybe Spine of Deathwing. The only thing that comes close in recent memory is Mythic Varimathras adds, but they need to die within 3-4 GCDs anyway, making a 10s buff incredibly wasted on them.

Honestly, Siegebreaker is closer in functionality to Battle Cry on live - having a similar cooldown, duration, and function. Any currently raiding Fury Warrior can attest that Battle Cry is not used "for priority damage", it's used strictly on cooldown, as much as possible, to maintain tempo.


I hear what you're saying. In fact, I made a pretty similar comment regarding battle cry above.

The closest thing this tier would be the big adds on Mythic Aggramar. During progression these required a decent bit of burst damage. I remember that my BC would typically come up just as the intermission was starting. Occasionally I'd have god like RNG and it would come up a bit earlier, but I would just hold it.

I think on a 30 second CD it has a pretty good chance of lining up well with mechanics in a raid so that you hardly delay it at all. On fights where it doesn't line up then maybe you don't take this talent.
So when is this build going up? I really want to try it out. I am really excited for most of these changes. I do agree however about Siege Breaker. Just sounds like a different version of Colossus Smash. If I liked that type of play style I would just play Arms.

I want to be a Fury Warrior and I want it to be FUN!
05/30/2018 09:09 PMPosted by Euphanicen

The closest thing this tier would be the big adds on Mythic Aggramar. During progression these required a decent bit of burst damage. I remember that my BC would typically come up just as the intermission was starting. Occasionally I'd have god like RNG and it would come up a bit earlier, but I would just hold it.

I think on a 30 second CD it has a pretty good chance of lining up well with mechanics in a raid so that you hardly delay it at all. On fights where it doesn't line up then maybe you don't take this talent.

Yeah, but that was a natural part of your toolkit; it wasn't like you only took CoF when there were mechanics that let you have BC for them, nor did you talent Dragon Roar to have better burst on those adds, despite being similar in function during Legion.

My point was that it's extremely rare for single target "burst windows" to be a practical consideration in raiding (outside of AoE of course, because of linear growth with multiple targets) when it comes to talent selection. If you're aiming for optimization, you simply take whatever single target talent has the highest total throughput; unless you're doing the job yourself (very unlikely) if your group doesn't have enough DPS to burst through those adds or that check regardless of your talent choice, yall probably have bigger problems!

Don't get me wrong, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with Siegebreaker; I think it's an interesting talent, and many people like short/frequent burst window abilities, which is why we see them so frequently on many different classes.

That said, I simply don't agree with giving this iteration of Fury a talent which is ostensibly a better version of Arms' major cooldown, Colossus Smash. It doesn't feel fair to Arms, nor does it feel unique for Fury.
05/30/2018 09:53 PMPosted by Archimtiros
That said, I simply don't agree with giving this iteration of Fury a talent which is ostensibly a better version of Arms' major cooldown, Colossus Smash. It doesn't feel fair to Arms, nor does it feel unique for Fury.


I think this is fair enough. I also agree with your comment that Dragon Roar is a weird ability and would be better of with bloodbath. I do enjoy the functionality of the newly designed pseudo odyn's fury.

Easy enough to make bloodbath a 40 seconds cds with a large initial burst damage (like dragon roar) and then add a bleed mechanic, even if we do away with the '40% of damage dealt as a bleed' buff. It's just large AoE nuke with a dot. Like odyn's fury.
Seph thank you for the update.

I'm still playing around with fury. A little sad to see wrecking ball go but sudden is nice replacement.

Still sorting out feelings on dragons roar vs bladestorm.

Not sure why everyone is hating on siegbreaker. I personally love it. Its the same with dh dark slash. Adds an option were i need to consider my next few moves carefully. Good option between spammy and planned alternating phases.
Wow a bit surprised to see anger managent return and sudden death. Did pretty well with predictions.

A lot of it makes sense and I’m super excited about seigebreaker. I guess massacre is here to stay don’t know how valuable it will be as a talent
05/30/2018 10:17 PMPosted by Bróxis
Seph thank you for the update.

I'm still playing around with fury. A little sad to see wrecking ball go but sudden is nice replacement.

Have not found any big issues. Still sorting out feelings on dragons roar vs bladestorm.

Not sure why everyone is hating on siegbreaker. I personally love it. Its the same with dh dark slash. Adds an option were i need to consider my next few moves carefully. Good option between spammy and planned alternating phases.

RE: Siegebreaker; as above, the problem isn't that it's a bad talent - the problem is that it doesn't fit the design direction that Fury has been taking, and that it infringes on something that (prior to this update) will have been intrinsic to Arms.

Options are good and I like having cool toys to play with, but I firmly believe that it's healthier to keep the two specs toolkits and their options unique.
05/30/2018 11:50 PMPosted by Archimtiros
05/30/2018 10:17 PMPosted by Bróxis
Seph thank you for the update.

I'm still playing around with fury. A little sad to see wrecking ball go but sudden is nice replacement.

Have not found any big issues. Still sorting out feelings on dragons roar vs bladestorm.

Not sure why everyone is hating on siegbreaker. I personally love it. Its the same with dh dark slash. Adds an option were i need to consider my next few moves carefully. Good option between spammy and planned alternating phases.

RE: Siegebreaker; as above, the problem isn't that it's a bad talent - the problem is that it doesn't fit the design direction that Fury has been taking, and that it infringes on something that (prior to this update) will have been intrinsic to Arms.

Options are good and I like having cool toys to play with, but I firmly believe that it's healthier to keep the two specs toolkits and their options unique.


Maybe so but regardless this was something Fury had in cata and it was very popular. Furthermore it should help with builds like carnage by giving it shorter burst windows compared to reckless abandon.

Like the best way to look at it is anger seigebreaker will be the fast pace build then anger management then reckless abanadon. It kind of makes sense.

Only alternative would have been a bleed which feels more like an arms thing

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