[Feedback] Fury Warrior: Rotation & Talents

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05/30/2018 11:55 PMPosted by Ryuku


Maybe so but regardless this was something Fury had in cata and it was very popular. Furthermore it should help with builds like carnage by giving it shorter burst windows compared to reckless abandon.

Like the best way to look at it is anger seigebreaker will be the fast pace build then anger management then reckless abanadon. It kind of makes sense.

Only alternative would have been a bleed which feels more like an arms thing

Sure it was popular, no disagreement, I'd even go so far as to say it was much more popular in 5.4 MoP, although it's also fair to say that the spec has evolved considerably since those times.

That said, the issue still stands. It's taking essentially the only gameplay Arms has (burst windows) and letting Fury do it better. I don't think that's healthy, and I think the specs would both be better served by staying distinct from one another, regardless of interesting I think the option may be for Fury.

I also think its synergy with Recklessness, Frenzy, and Frothing is way too strong, but we'll have to wait and see how tuning pans out before making a call on that one.
I have to agree with Archimtiros on this one. I think Siegebreaker is too similar to the Arms theme and should stay out of Fury's kit. Regardless of how it feels to play, it just wouldn't be "Fury". Unfortunately, I have no good ideas as to what could replace it.

I completely disagree about the Dragon Roar/Bloodbath point, though. I think Seph laid out very good points as to why Bloodbath shouldn't be a talent (terrible to have extra GCD ability, having it modify Reck is just Reckless Abandon 2.0, etc). Dragon Roar being our new Odyn's Fury is a good choice.

Lastly, I have a hard time believing Furious Slash will be successful. Given the frequent use of BT and Rampage, I feel like it'll always feel terrible using Furious Slash when other abilities are waiting for us.. even if maintaining that haste buff is a DPS gain. My recommendation would be to make Furious Slash a passive that augments Bloodthirst to do something similar (maybe 1% haste 1% dmg per stack or something -- not unlike the legendary cloak), rather than adding a new ability.
I absolutely despise any iteration of Recklessness that gives partial crit chance. The rage generation mechanic is cool, but < 100% crit chance from recklessness feels bad. It means sometimes I pop my big cd and crit everything and crush everything and feel great, but the more noticeable (and much worse feeling) scenario is nothing crits and I feel I may as well have not popped reck to begin with.

Suggestions:
- If you're scared of a 100% crit chance reck devaluing crit make warrior gain crit damage when over crit cap like destro warlocks.

- If you're scared of 100% crit chance reck pushing warrior to cheesey trinkets have it only give the crit to our moves/auto attacks/racials (Light's judgement says hi).

- I think the new meat cleaver should be changed. Instead of a 10% chance to enrage why not give a 10% chance to give a free rampage proc (Maybe only stack the chance every 3 or 4 mobs?). Now we get the enrage and get to do more than whirlwind and bloodthirst alternations during cleave.

- I remember when Colossus Smash was taken away with the reason that Arms is the slow and calculated weapon master and the window makes more sense for them and fury should be about consistent damage. So then why would you all bring back Colossus Smash for fury AGAIN and just rename it Siegebreaker? This talent should be replaced with something else.
05/31/2018 02:05 AMPosted by Protege
I completely disagree about the Dragon Roar/Bloodbath point, though. I think Seph laid out very good points as to why Bloodbath shouldn't be a talent (terrible to have extra GCD ability, having it modify Reck is just Reckless Abandon 2.0, etc). Dragon Roar being our new Odyn's Fury is a good choice.

To be fair, I did specifically say "even if it does the same thing [as Dragon Roar]". My argument was more from a sense of thematics, that Dragon Roar is the odd ability out; Dragons aren't represented anywhere within the theme of the spec, whereas Bloodbath (even if it were simply direct damage without any DoT component whatsoever, exactly the same as Dragon Roar) is a better fit.

Wholly personal of course. I just like the idea of hitting things with my weapons more yelling at enemies until they die.

05/31/2018 02:10 AMPosted by Panzar
I absolutely despise any iteration of Recklessness that gives partial crit chance. The rage generation mechanic is cool, but < 100% crit chance from recklessness feels bad.

I agree, though tbh, I'd be just as happy if Reck lost the 20% crit chance and was simply a resource cooldown. It would, at least, make Bladestorming slightly easier.

05/31/2018 02:10 AMPosted by Panzar
- I remember when Colossus Smash was taken away with the reason that Arms is the slow and calculated weapon master and the window makes more sense for them and fury should be about consistent damage. So then why would you all bring back Colossus Smash for fury AGAIN and just rename it Siegebreaker? This talent should be replaced with something else.

Wholeheartedly agree, though I think I've already beat that horse to death and then some.
Im more incline to support dragon roar over bloodbath. It feels more unique and warriors have a lot of shouts already so it kind of fits thematically. Battle, commanding and I think recklessness is actually a shout too. I like it but I might be the odd one out.

In regards to seigebreaker I think 20% might be a tad too high maybe 10%

I kind of wish furious slash / frenzy remained 15% total haste buff.
Just give fury a talent that replaces Rampage with HS and fury is good.
Pretty much agree with everything Archimtiros has said. As a primary Arms player it feels bad giving fury a much better colossus. That and when switching specs it feels good to have a completely different play style.

They can just replace Dragon's Roar with Odyn's Fury instead of trying to mimic it.

Agree with pretty much everyone that furious slash needs to go. Perhaps replace it with something like the old school flurry talent? I know we have alot of white damage but it always looked really cool swinging 2 big 2handers really fast for a couple swings. Fits the raging berserker fantasy.
Everything is looking awesome except for Siegebreaker.

I don't really understand how you could play around with variations of bloodbath and come to the conclusion that straight copying Arms' major cooldown was the way to go. You could achieve a similar result by having Bloodbath be a hard hitting, rage generating, short cooldown that debuffs the target and makes a percentage of your damage in a 10 second window apply as a bleed. Same damage window play but a bit less like Arms.

Maybe Siegebreaker could apply a 10 second debuff that causes Bloodthirst to have a 1.5 second shorter cooldown when used on that target, or Raging Blow has significantly higher chance to reset on use on that target. The rest of the tier seems to be cooldown based rage generation increases and this would be a window that changes the rotation a bit rather than a flat c-smash damage window.
Anger management kind of sounds like it could be called convergence of fates.
coo coo coo coo cool. Now lets get some prot warrior updates, lol. I'm joking, prot will go live as is.
05/31/2018 03:43 AMPosted by Archimtiros
05/31/2018 02:05 AMPosted by Protege
I completely disagree about the Dragon Roar/Bloodbath point, though. I think Seph laid out very good points as to why Bloodbath shouldn't be a talent (terrible to have extra GCD ability, having it modify Reck is just Reckless Abandon 2.0, etc). Dragon Roar being our new Odyn's Fury is a good choice.

To be fair, I did specifically say "even if it does the same thing [as Dragon Roar]". My argument was more from a sense of thematics, that Dragon Roar is the odd ability out; Dragons aren't represented anywhere within the theme of the spec, whereas Bloodbath (even if it were simply direct damage without any DoT component whatsoever, exactly the same as Dragon Roar) is a better fit.

Wholly personal of course. I just like the idea of hitting things with my weapons more yelling at enemies until they die.

05/31/2018 02:10 AMPosted by Panzar
I absolutely despise any iteration of Recklessness that gives partial crit chance. The rage generation mechanic is cool, but < 100% crit chance from recklessness feels bad.

I agree, though tbh, I'd be just as happy if Reck lost the 20% crit chance and was simply a resource cooldown. It would, at least, make Bladestorming slightly easier.

05/31/2018 02:10 AMPosted by Panzar
- I remember when Colossus Smash was taken away with the reason that Arms is the slow and calculated weapon master and the window makes more sense for them and fury should be about consistent damage. So then why would you all bring back Colossus Smash for fury AGAIN and just rename it Siegebreaker? This talent should be replaced with something else.

Wholeheartedly agree, though I think I've already beat that horse to death and then some.


You should have a closer look at our artifact weapons and maybe rethink the bolded statement (even if those are now retired)...lol.

Personally, glad to see BB go as while it was very "warrior" in theme the mechanics of using it was annoying. So far, I am loving the changes and am excited to play my Fury warrior(s) in BFA.
@Archimtiros
I simply disagree that siegbreaker is not inline with current warrior direction. Already i find my self waiting to press RB to ensure i have two charges for enrage. Always weighing my option on how to max out that little window.
Colossus smash is one of the things that push me away from my warrior originally and I have no want to see it return in any form. We just got rid of it, let's not ruin a good spec by adding it back in. I just found a spec in actually happy with in BFA, I hope it stays this way.
I doubt seigbreaker will be that bad. Gives a touch of rage so it will most likely be used at 50 + to get rampage ready. Then standard rotation.

For those who worry about cs windows. Do you not consider enrage a cs window?

Here's the thing. We don't have to prep like arms. Our rotation is straight up a priority one cs window or not. When SB is up we will be spamming buttons all the same. All SB does is change priority in two spots. Reck>Rampage>SB>Rotstion and SB (to gen rage)> Rampage>Rotation.

Regardless I'm looking forward to fury even more.
Edit: Reading comprehension is not my strong suit this morning. Super stoked that Sudden Death resets Execute's cooldown and is thus useful even during the Execute phase.
05/30/2018 07:27 PMPosted by Archimtiros
Siegebreaker
Granted it is a talent, so this may or may not be considered a bad thing, but I do feel it's a little too "damage window"-centric, which it seemed like Fury had been trying to get away from and leave as Arms' wheelhouse.


I was thinking the same thing. The changed alot of classes in bfa to get away from the CS window playstyle so why would you add that in as a talent? That being said i'm alright with it as long as i can choose one of the other 2 talents and still do just as much damage. My fear though is that this will end up being the go too talent because it increases your dps alot more than the other 2 will.
1. I agree with the statements regarding Seigebreaker, it seems to similar to Arms CS window, and seems to go against the theme of the fast paced berserker. It could easily be replaced by a talent that makes one of our existing attacks, most likely Rampage or Raging Blow apply a bleed to the targets (like our current 2 set bonus does for Rampage now) - keeps in theme with the other talents in the row & while still being different from them & not giving us another CD to manage.

2. Dragon Roar & Bladestorm - why not just give us Odyn's Fury in place of Blade Storm instead of trying to make Dragon Roar mimic Odyn's Fury. Bladestorm doesn't make sense for Fury just like Siegebreaker doesn't - "Wait, let me stop and spin like a ballerina for 3 sec" Fury should have have attacks that only use the 1 global and then let you get back to your normal rotation/priority. Put Dragon Roar back to a mid-damage AoE ability with a knock-back/knock-down effect like it was for MoP, this still gives us a bit of AoE burst, but with some CC utility.

3. Meat Cleaver - will Whirlwind still generate a base amount of rage or will we need to take Meat Cleaver to gain any rage from Whirlwind? If WW still has base rage & Meat Cleaver gives us additional rage per target hit + the base to WW, I think this is good. If I we have to take Meat Cleaver to gain any rage from WW, then it'll be basically required and the other 2 talents won't compete.

4. Furious Slash - I wish the haste still stacked to a total of 15% instead of only 6%, but this would still be good to speed up game play. I also wish that instead of giving us another button to press, that the effect would be applied to one of our existing buttons, like Raging Blow or Bloodthirst. Bloodthirst would be the easier to maintain, while having Raging Blow activate & stack Frenzy would force us to decide if we want to keep stacks up or hold RB for an upcoming Enrage. Either way, this is still much better than having Furious Slash/Frenzy be separate.

5. Sudden Death - I love this talent and have missed it. I Just wish it didn't compete with Furious Slash so I could take them both! But I suppose this is the point, to force me to choose. :)

Overall, the changes to Fury are looking great IMO. Keeps the core playstyle that we have on live which is great, but fixes some of the pain points we've had and gives us some nice QoL changes. Now if we could just get Double Time baseline for Arms & Furty. (totally wishful thinking - but really would love to see this)
Enrage is not like CS, it happens so frequently that you can't really store rage, RB and BT damage is low compared to MS, and one of them is pretty much ready to go at all times.
If I was going to compose CS to something in current Beta Fury it would be recklessness.
05/31/2018 02:10 AMPosted by Panzar
I absolutely despise any iteration of Recklessness that gives partial crit chance. The rage generation mechanic is cool, but < 100% crit chance from recklessness feels bad. It means sometimes I pop my big cd and crit everything and crush everything and feel great, but the more noticeable (and much worse feeling) scenario is nothing crits and I feel I may as well have not popped reck to begin with.


Since we are no longer a crit based class I think the solution too this would just be too give us a damage increase instead of a crit chance increase.

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