[Feedback] Fury Warrior: Rotation & Talents

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Some ideas for you with regard to rage generation and talents.

Rage generation should be similar to live, but from auto attacking. So talents can be built around fast pacey generation, either hard hitting builds or, quick spammy builds and something for AoE / Cleave. Anyhow, no harm in daydreaming and giving some suggestions.

Mastery: Drop the link between enrage and flat damage done increase. Mastery would be better served increasing Crit damage done when enraged, for the oldschool Fury's out there, call it 'Impale,' for the sake of giving it a name.

Also add into the mix the idea of "Anger Management," that every mastery % would see an increasing chance of a 1 second reduction in cooldown for Recklessness on abilities used.

Remove the rage component from Recklessness talent, given rage generation would be better functioning inversly (spending not to cap, as opposed to building slowly to dump in a window). Rage now generates much more freely from auto attacks. and the point is to not over-cap.

Bloodthirst Triggers enrage on crit, when BT does not Crit your next BT gains a increased 15% chance of being a critical hit next use.

Enrage is still triggered from Rampage. Rampage is still a big spender, still enrages.

Raging Blow, used when enraged, Small rage cost 5-10

Severance - 30-40 rage: Replaces Furious Slash, given that FS is entirely vestigal and not needed. Strikes up to 3 targets in a cone in front of the warrior. Hitting two or more targets decreases the Rage cost of Carve by 50%.

Whirlwind costs rage but it's cost is reduced significantly and damage increased slightly when hitting 4 or more targets.

Talent rows -

15
War-Machine: - Keep the Attack speed buff and movement speed increase; Great talent for multi-mob / levelling / PvP situations. Feels good.

Endless Rage: Drop make it baseline. Uninteresting talent, adds little value when it is mandatory in single target / minimal cleave fights. Bake in the "bloodthirst has a chance to hit twice talent."

Fresh meat: Drop it, give it an increase damage done on mobs above 25%.

30
Double time: great, no changes

Impending victory: Great, but re-introduce victory rush as a 10% heal on killing a foe and increase the healing of Impending victory to 25% every 30 seconds. Any resets during this 30 second period return only 10% health.

Storm bolt: Quadruple damage on non- PvP mobs / mobs that are immune to stun.

45
Wrecking ball: your WW (when hitting four or more targets) and Carve (when hitting two or more targets but not the primary target) now have the chance to hit twice.

Outburst: Remove. Suggestion - Savagery - Raging blow now causes the target to bleed for 30% of damage done over 6 seconds.

Avatar: Meh, I don't know what to do with this. Its ok, but I just don't like the theme, never have. Bring back Deathwish., I miss my skulls.

60
Furious Charge: Great but the % heal could be higher, 400-500 % (which still is not a huge deal).

Bounding Stride: Heroic leap now has two charges with the sprint component, cool down not affected.

War-paint: Worst of the worst. This has to go, totally, it never should have been a talent at all. Enraged Regeneration is now affected by your mastery.

75
Carnage: Good as is.

Massacre: RB, Severance and WW crits have a chance to make your next Rampage free.

Frothing Berserker: Great as is.

90
Fenzy: BT now increases your attack speed by 5% for 15 seconds, stacks 3 times

Inner Rage: Great as is

Bloodbath: Fine as is

100:
Reckless abandon: Recklessness now lasts 4 seconds longer, removed rage component.

Dragon Roar: Damage increase 15%, lasts 8 seconds, no longer crits but is affected by Recklessness.

Blade Storm: Removed. New ability, some kinda Fury sounding sassy name, such as Avalanche of Hate or something (mind you that name sounds like a death metal band xD ): Repeatedly leap up and slam down into your opponents, striking all of them within 8 yards, three times over 6 seconds. Yeah it's basically the same, but come on, how much cooler would this look?

I'm still mulling over the execute phase. But with increased rage generation, and higher uptime on enrage, execute should actually be something you weave in between BT, RB, Rampage and Severance. I still liked Juggernaut, I guess this could be baked into the ability, with fewer stacks (6-10 stacks at 5% each).
I agree with the first point, but it is rage generation across the board, not rage generation during AoE.


If you've read any of my posts you would know that I am advocating strongly for rage generation to be increased in ALL situations. The reason I keep singling out AoE is because increasing the rage generation of RB won't really help in an AoE situation. If there are enough targets that you would rather WW over RB then you should also be generating roughly equivalent rage from a WW as you would a RB.

The second point, is merely returning to more frequent burst, again, this does not address the issues of poor rage generation and the 'feel' of fury mechanically at baseline (by baseline I mean the mechanics of the spec prior to talents and traits).


I consider the lack of multi target burst to be a serious issue for our base line functionality. If we go live without the ability to do high AoE for a short period of time, then followed by medium levels of AoE for a longer period of time then Fury will not be a competitive choice in any situation other than for ST raid encounters. This is an unacceptable design in my eyes and I will continue to advocate for change.

Lastly, I've never seen BS as a Fury ability, it was poached from arms


Yeah, and sweeping strikes was originally a Fury ability. In MoP both Fury and Arms had easy access to Bladestorm on a tier with little competition. In WoD it was baseline and in Legion it returned as a talent for Fury but baseline for Arms. This is true again for BfA.

Bladestorm is an iconic DPS warrior ability even if it started off as an Arms exclusive.

There are other solutions to our AoE woes other than Bladestorm. Odyn's fury was pretty damn good, and the WW lego belt scaled better for Fury than Arms so it was much better for us than it was for them. Even with this, Arms still strongly out shined Fury in M+ for the whole expansion. Some of this was because of defensive stance, but a lot of it was that Fury simply could not manage the levels of AoE burst required to complete high level keys on time.

If Blizzard wants to address this issue in a different way I'm fine with it. As it stands, we'll likely have to fight tooth and nail to get back to the kind of AoE we could do in Legion. However, I would really like to return to the MoP/WoD design where Fury either had Bladestorm baseline or could select it as a talent with little cost and was much more competitive as a result.
If you've read any of my posts you would know that I am advocating strongly for rage generation to be increased in ALL situations. The reason I keep singling out AoE is because increasing the rage generation of RB won't really help in an AoE situation. If there are enough targets that you would rather WW over RB then you should also be generating roughly equivalent rage from a WW as you would a RB.


I agree, but I'm suggesting a significant shift in rage generation, not arguing for a little bit more rage from abilities such as RB. As I've detailed clearly, Fury would be better placed generating so much rage the idea would be to avoid 'capping out' and wasting rage from subsequent whit hits. Not just generate a bit more for AoE or Execute. I'd be happy with the death of Meat Cleaver.

I consider the lack of multi target burst to be a serious issue for our base line functionality. If we go live without the ability to do high AoE for a short period of time, then followed by medium levels of AoE for a longer period of time then Fury will not be a competitive choice in any situation other than for ST raid encounters. This is an unacceptable design in my eyes and I will continue to advocate for change.


I do not disagree, but the burst window of the current spec is premised on the way rage is currently generated. Which without the artefact weapons and traits demonstrates the flaws in the current mechanics. Basically it seems you are asking (I could be wrong here but please bare with me) for Fury to remain 'as is' in Legion. I dissagree with this, if this is what you are saying, I'm asking for a mechanical overhaul given the GCD changes will impinge upon this playstyle. This also returns us to a one trick pony of a burst spec, which is designed in this fashion because of the rage generation and mastery. Which invariably contradicts what the Designers are trying to move away from, cooldown stacking and burst.

I'm not in dissagreement with needing more AoE burst on demand, but I'm not advocating what we have currently on live.

Yeah, and sweeping strikes was originally a Fury ability. In MoP both Fury and Arms had easy access to Bladestorm on a tier with little competition. In WoD it was baseline and in Legion it returned as a talent for Fury but baseline for Arms. This is true again for BfA.

Bladestorm is an iconic DPS warrior ability even if it started off as an Arms exclusive.


Bloodthurst is Iconic, Enrage is Iconic, Deathwish is Iconic. BS was, and for me will always be, synonymous with Arms. I'd prefer something more Fury Centric. I don't dispute its great at what it does, I'd just prefer something else, this is merely a subjective view on my part.
But your point on burst still stands.

There are other solutions to our AoE woes other than Bladestorm. Odyn's fury was pretty damn good, and the WW lego belt scaled better for Fury than Arms so it was much better for us than it was for them. Even with this, Arms still strongly out shined Fury in M+ for the whole expansion. Some of this was because of defensive stance, but a lot of it was that Fury simply could not manage the levels of AoE burst required to complete high level keys on time.


Again I'm not in disagreement, I would love to see WW increase its damage when there are more than 4 mobs, as well as potentially giving an extra spin (like the belt). I'd also like to see some kind of new cleave mechanic involved too, but to try and bake this all into meat cleaver with current rage gen is the cause of our current dismay. Simply because this was supposed to be propped up with Traits and Battle cry.

Again, this suggestion from me is premised on significantly more rage and greater and higher sustained damage, thus I'd be happy to see a return of WW costing rage, but less rage and a stronger effect when conditions are met. Basically Punished for using it outside of these conditions, but rewarded for using it in a timely appropriate manner. The 'burstyness' is going the way of the Dinosaur for BfA, I'd rather have a strong Rage costing, on demand WW that is stronger through Recklessness. Not a weak over-time-spam-forever version we currently have.

I keep wanting to broaden the discussion away from talents and abilities as it comes back to both Mastery and Enrage as mechanics being the problem, hence my suggestion these are in dire need of an overhaul.

I agree with you both in spirit and principle, and credit to you for starting this sorely needed discussion, but I think I would prefer an overall alteration to Enrage and Mastery first. Or we will continue to encounter this issue every expansion. Let the discussion continue!
The 'burstyness' is going the way of the Dinosaur for BfA


You've said this a few times but it's not really true. Blizzard has given a number of non-sensical justifications for the GCD change. It's not right to say that they're moving away from AoE burst and CD stacking, it's just that the design of some classes is better for it than others.

You really have to look no further than our other specialisation to know that AoE burst is very much alive and well. Warbreaker and Bladestorm absolutely demolish AoE pulls. It's actually obscene how much damage that combo does. Right now Arms looks like a much more well rounded specialisation.
I don't dispute that other specs have some good, yet clunky (given GCD changes) AoE, I have said that this will not solve the problems for Fury. Sure, give us Odyn's and Recklessness and Avatar with a side helping of unrivalled strength. I think you'd still see that there were flaws with the mechanics of Rage generation and poor performance outside of this.

I would agree that Arms is in a much better place (rage generation is still low though), I don't think I could, or have disagreed. I'm just interested in looking beyond a burst window, and for more engaging gameplay and feel to Fury.

I personally agree with you about the weak sustained AoE, but more burst will not address the underlying mechanics that this iteration of Fury is supporting. I also have a sense of unease that getting more burst will come from Azerite traits, which would be a poor way of propping up Fury as we move into the new expansion. I was merely trying to broaden out the dialogue through critique, opinion and suggestion.
We've wasted a lot of words on a weird argument. I generally feel like I'm repeating myself because what you're saying seems like we're having two entirely separate conversations.

me: Fury rage generation is under tuned and needs a buff. Also our AoE competitiveness is a problem and could also use some attention.

you: Buffing our AoE won't fix our rage generation problems.

Well. Um, you're not wrong I guess.

It's just not what I'm saying.
Some pretty massive fury changes just hit Beta.
Furious Slash: The Return of Bloodthirst: The Revengening!
So much win in this build. Looks like they did read the feedback. Can’t wait to get home and try this all out.

Not perfect but big improvements
05/24/2018 05:24 PMPosted by Ryuku
So much win in this build. Looks like they did read the feedback. Can’t wait to get home and try this all out.

Not perfect but big improvements


Yea, definitely some big paradigm shifts in there. Will have to playtest to see how it feels.

Finally good to see at least some real changes, even if a few of them make me scratch my head.
I love how frothing Bessemer is now built into Carnage. Glad we don’t have to rely on crit to proc enrage and furious slash actually has a chance of doing something as a filler. Also I like how they put our LEGO helmet into a talent to generate rage
I didn't try Fury before this build because everybody was saying it was the worst spec on the beta so I didn't bother.

So while I don't have tons of value to compare to previous builds, I can say that I absolutely love it right now. I will have to try out the other two warrior specs, but after doing the Lordaeron scenario on a fresh Fury warrior, it skyrocketed to the top of my main potential list.

New Frothing Berserker addresses a lot of the issues I had with the one on live, I hated having to resist pressing Rampage when it glowed because you needed to wait another 15 or wtv fury in order to get the proc. I didn't play Fury too seriously but I frequently messed it up. Now Rampage costs 95 with FB and gives 10% haste and 10% damage, fantastic.

Furious Slash feels a ton more useful to press, makes me want to take Frenzy always now that FS has a chance to proc Enrage and stack haste? Sign me up.

Enrage giving haste instead of attack speed seems really good too, I was regularly spiking up to 82% haste with FB, Enrage and Frenzy stacked. Felt absolutely incredible to play.

I also really like Raging Blow being usable outside of Enrage, makes the downtime between Enrage feel less awful.

There might be some issues with the spec that I haven't run into yet, but wow I am having a blast. Most fun I've had with a spec on the beta so far. I can't wait to go try some content with the War Mode talents on because some of them look like they're going to make 110-120 a blast.
This week's beta build caught the Fury Warrior changes mid-flight, and is an incomplete picture of the overall changes. Work is still underway – the spec is currently being iterated on. To give some more information on the overall direction of the spec, here are some points we are looking to address:
  • More tightly adjust/control Enrage uptime and Rage income (both of which heavily impact pacing, flow, and the feel of the spec) throughout the expansion, rather than letting both scale up dramatically as gearing happens.
  • Reduce the amount of stacking damage bonuses on the spec that are available simultaneously, which reduces the desire/need to stack multiple at once, which now feels much worse to do now that virtually all of them are on the global cooldown.
  • Figure out Furious Slash’s place on the spec.

Enrage
Getting mad and being better and stronger is definitely still the fantasy of Fury, and Enrage is staying as the spec’s core base mechanic and Mastery. However, Enrage is changing a bit into 25% Haste (still being adjusted) and 10% Movement speed. It’s currently 100% melee attack speed on live, and was 50% melee attack speed previously on Beta. Haste is something that’s much more felt in terms of pacing (button presses, cooldowns compressing) compared to auto attack speed, which mostly gets covered up by ability animations anyways.

The 20% increased damage taken during Enrage is being removed. Along with this, the 15% passive increased maximum health the spec had is also going away – this was largely added to counteract the increased damage drawback that Enrage had. Now, Fury will simply have the bonus of ~8% more health than other non-tanks in the same gear level, due to being able to dual-wield a pair of 2-handed weapons.

In terms of Enrage uptime, our current thought is we’d like to try targeting Enrage uptime to around ~60%, and not growing wildly throughout the expansion as gear improves. I think there exists a sweet spot for Enrage uptime where it’s not up so often that it’s taken for granted and you don’t have to think at all about playing around it, but also not so rare that it feels bad.

Because Enrage uptime is a function of Enrage duration and Rage generation (which is directly proportional to the time in between Rampages), Enrage duration going up means uptime can get too high, which means time in between Rampages can get too high, which then feels bad. Currently, Enrage duration is back to 4 sec, but Rage generation has increased significantly since this round of Fury changes, so the spec should feel much faster now and the uptime on Enrage shouldn’t feel low.

Raging Blow
Raging Blow now Generates 12 Rage, has 2 charges, 7.5 sec recharge (reduced by Haste), has a 20% chance to instantly reset its own cooldown, and no longer requires being Enraged to be usable. It’s more similar to the Inner Rage version than the live baseline version, where it has no cooldown but requires Enrage to be usable. Raging Blow is doing a lot of things for the spec here:
  • Raging Blow was changed to fit together into Rampage and Bloodthirst, both of which we thought were good and didn’t need any notable changes.
  • Being usable only while Enraged, meant you very frequently pushed it multiple times in a row for 5 Rage each time, which didn’t feel super engaging.
  • Having 2 charges baseline felt better, as a version with either a 6 or 7.5 sec cooldown but no charges meant it collided with Bloodthirst’s cooldown very frequently, which did not feel good. Additionally, charges on Raging Blow is sort of the only actual resource you manage on the spec, since Rage is technically a resource but only spent on Rampage and nothing else.
  • Having a 20% chance to reset itself is the random proc on the baseline spec that adds an amount of unpredictability to the rotation.

Furious Slash
Furious Slash didn’t really found its place on the spec. it’s a no-cooldown free filler that didn’t feel great to press, largely as a direct result of being the lowest priority/impact ability by design. The version of Furious Slash you’re seeing this week is a first iteration, where we tried giving it more tie-ins to your core rotation/mechanics: Generates 3 Rage, has 10% chance to trigger Enrage.

Playing this version some more internally, we thought the button felt better, but still didn’t feel great to press. Additionally, it overlaps some with Whirlwind, which is also a baseline no-cooldown free filler. So we’re going to try removing Furious Slash baseline and making Whirlwind the baseline filler in single-target. Whirlwind has the benefit of having better audio/visual feedback, and generally feeling better to press. It also just fits the fantasy of a whirling blademaster/berserker pretty well. It will generate 3 Rage + 1 additional per target hit, up to a maximum of 8 Rage (this is intended to also speed up the AOE rotation). Furious Slash is being merged together with Frenzy (talent) and becoming a talent in that slot, without the new experimental 10% chance to trigger Enrage mechanic.

Whirlwind's Meat Cleaver effect
Whirlwind will now cause your next 2 single-target attacks to gain the effect of striking up to 4 additional targets for 40% damage. With the changes to Raging Blow, it made sense to add Raging Blow to this effect, but at that point the only thing not included was Execute and Furious Slash, so we've added them too.

Execute
Execute being a Rage spender caused it replace Rampage entirely during execute range (against enemies below 20% health). We are trying a version of Execute where it has a short 6-sec cooldown, and generates 20 Rage instead of spending it, so that it adds to your rotation and helps fuel your Rampages, rather than replacing one of your core buttons. In the current design of the spec, it feels more correct for Rampage to remain the almighty and only Rage spender, and Execute to be a more support role (rather than the spammed Rage spender), even if it deals similar damage to Rampage on paper (because Execute is available less frequently and Rampage Enrages you).

Recklessness
With Enrage no longer coming from Bloodthirst critical strikes and instead coming from Bloodthirst at a consistent 30% rate, the spec no longer has a core critical strike mechanic, and it made less sense to have 100% critical strike chance as Fury’s baseline cooldown. Thinking about it more, 100% critical strike chance would make more sense as Arm’s cooldown, because that spec is slower-paced and more about setting up for fewer, larger hits. Fury is currently much more about flurries of many smaller hits, speed/haste, and Rage generation. To that end, Fury’s cooldown turning into double Rage generation from all sources (and some critical strike chance for flavor) made more sense, both in terms of feel, theme, and gameplay.

As a side note, one of the upsides of Fury’s resource model is that it can support a huge amount of burst/temporarily increased resource income in a way that feels great (something many other specs can’t do as well), because Rampage spends 85% of the Rage bar – we’re consciously leaning into this more with the Recklessness mechanics changes.

As always, thanks for all of the feedback.
Think you can allow Fury Warriors to transmog their 2H weapons to look like 1-handers?
Since Single-minded Fury isn't returning. Also because I liked 1H fury
I like what I’m reading. I can test tomorrow, I’m excited.

Question - is furious slash going to be removed? Whirlwind as the replcement? So what’s frenzy going to be?

Thanks for removing the enrage penalty. Keep up the good work; thanks for the changes.
Playing these changes on live feels much better than it did previously. It's much more fluid with short bursts of quick button presses. The movement of some talents feels great as well as the adjustments to others.

My only question is, now that enrage no longer causes us to take more damage and Titan's grip only gives us a bit more stamina, are we going to be able to use single-minded fury again?

With all the changes to abilities no longer scaling with weapon damage and instead being based on our attack power, now would be a good time to bring back the option to players. While I didn't mind using two two-handers during legion, I'll be the first to admit missing my two one-handed axes and feeling like a berserker attacking crazy fast.
Thank you Steph for the insight.

Fresh meat has had a great change but I noticed talents like outburst and massacre remain. Is there any intent to change these talents in the future?

Besides that things are looking very good
My current issues with fury with the latest build.

First off, if I understand correctly, the tier 100 row is supposed to be both aoe and single targeted friendly. However, bladestorm still continues to feel bad since enrage doesn't last long enough or line up properly and you're doing nothing for X seconds while your AA's generate rage.

Wrecking ball and dragon roar seem to be usable on any target scenario while bladestorm doesn't seem ST friendly at all to me.

Massacre talent still needs to go or be revamped, it's very situational and it's either really too strong or too weak, at least compared to the other 2 talents.

I am still not understanding the purpose behind outburst. Berserker Rage should enrage you by default. Another rage regen talent should take its place.

Other than that, I must say fury warriors really REALLY improved a lot with the recent build, I wasn't expecting any word on fury.

Very impressive.
05/24/2018 07:19 PMPosted by Seph
Furious Slash
Furious Slash didn’t really found its place on the spec. it’s a no-cooldown free filler that didn’t feel great to press, largely as a direct result of being the lowest priority/impact ability by design. The version of Furious Slash you’re seeing this week is a first iteration, where we tried giving it more tie-ins to your core rotation/mechanics: Generates 3 Rage, has 10% chance to trigger Enrage.

Playing this version some more internally, we thought the button felt better, but still didn’t feel great to press. Additionally, it overlaps some with Whirlwind, which is also a baseline no-cooldown free filler. So we’re going to try removing Furious Slash baseline and making Whirlwind the baseline filler in single-target. Whirlwind has the benefit of having better audio/visual feedback, and generally feeling better to press. It also just fits the fantasy of a whirling blademaster/berserker pretty well. It will generate 3 Rage + 1 additional per target hit, up to a maximum of 8 Rage (this is intended to also speed up the AOE rotation). Furious Slash is being merged together with Frenzy (talent) and becoming a talent in that slot, without the new experimental 10% chance to trigger Enrage mechanic.


Good post, and I agree on most points, but I'd highly recommend against the suggested Frenzy change (merging FS into Frenzy as a standalone talent). The spec is already GCD locked, and already suffers the problem of losing Rage/Enrage uptime anytime it uses a non-rotational ability. The last thing it needs is another talented button when it's already saturated with them.

Instead, I'd recommend simply tying Frenzy's effects to Bloodthirst.

05/24/2018 07:19 PMPosted by Seph
In terms of Enrage uptime, our current thought is we’d like to try targeting Enrage uptime to around ~60%, and not growing wildly throughout the expansion as gear improves. I think there exists a sweet spot for Enrage uptime where it’s not up so often that it’s taken for granted and you don’t have to think at all about playing around it, but also not so rare that it feels bad.


I'd suggest closer to 70-75% for that sweet spot, as that's generally what's been considered comfortably paced throughout Legion.

Finally, I've already posted this elsewhere, but I'd like to reiterate a few problem areas:

First, Fury still has far too many talented cooldowns. I highly recommend either removing them (in the case of Avatar, as it makes little sense to talent in to Prot's major cooldown), or making them passive modifiers to Recklessness (in the case of Bloodbath) since they're always going to be used in conjunction with Recklessness anyway. As stated before, the spec already has problems in pressing any non-rotational button which doesn't generate rage/enrage, and doesn't need more.

Second, Bladestorm is still an issue in that it quite simply does not fit into Enrage without 90% Haste, which is fairly unreasonable even with the specs emphasis on Haste buffs. A much better solution would be for Bladestorm to simply always deal damage as if enraged, streamlining its use without changing the statistical benefit.

Lastly, auto-attack damage is still far too high. 40-60% of the specs damage from one mostly-passive source is simply unnecessary and feels unengaging, even if its damage is actually based on the players input. An easy solution would be for Enrage's damage bonus to only apply to ability damage, lowering auto-attacks to a much more reasonable 25-35% damage - still a major source, but no longer the sole majority.
Hey K and class team,

I submitted these as bug reports but figured post them here for awareness:

===

The baseline talent Endless Rage does not proc from the pvp talent Enduring Rage

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All rage gen abilities are lower than their tooltip value:
Bloodthirst: 6 (instead of 8)
Raging Blow: 10 (instead of 12)
Furious Slash: 3 (instead of 4)

===

For those curious for calculating the new rage generations:
    Weapon swing speed is 3.6 seconds modified by haste.
    Main hand seems to be ~6.28 rage per swing
    Offhand seems to be ~3.1 per swing

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