[Feedback] Fury Warrior: Rotation & Talents

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I think WW being the new single target filler is bad, WW should be AoE because having natural AoE means the rest of the AoE isn't going to be as impactful. PvP WW is going to be bad for cc'd targets. Also, Furious Slash should have an animation similar to a Frenzy Barb on Diablo 2!

As for Recklessness, can you remove the crit and bake in Blood Bath? It doesnt have to be OP, but the 20% crit feels.... underwhelming for a burst cd, I get the resource thing but ultimately it's like "oh cool, I press my cooldown and do the same exact thing as if I didnt use"

Other than those issues, I love the new Fury.
05/29/2018 10:30 AMPosted by Yrsal
I agree with a lot of posters here about damage cooldowns and the GCD.

In my opinion, I think Avatar should just be removed from fury. Visually it feels more like an Arms talent, and with the GCD changes it really messes with the flow of Fury.

My idea of Fury is a raging berserker that movees and acts erratically and unpredictably. Enrage happens somewhat randomly and provides a great burst. Even short duration burst cd's like recklessness and bloodbath fit much better than something like Avatar which lasts 20 seconds.

An idea I had for an alternative talent ability would be something that enhances our shouts. I also see a Fury warrior as something loud and boisterous yet our shouts are rather niche. I think throwing a talent in that adds a damage or rage building component would be a nice option and would add to the class fantasy. Kinda like battle shout back in MoP(?) when it was on a cooldown but it generated a hefty amount of rage and was used in our rotation.

Other than that though I really enjoy the changes. I was worried after hearing about the GCD changes, but with the removal of Furious Slash and the addition of more rage building mechanics it feels better than live in my opinion. I look forward to the whirlwind changes so I can see how it feels, but I like the idea of it becoming our filler. Even now, it's visually much more pleasing.


Yessss.

Fury shouts could be sick. Definitely fits the theme too.

We have three as is, maybe add a fourth or even just add some kinda utility to b-shout like you mentioned.
05/29/2018 08:57 PMPosted by Spòoky
I think WW being the new single target filler is bad, WW should be AoE because having natural AoE means the rest of the AoE isn't going to be as impactful. PvP WW is going to be bad for cc'd targets. Also, Furious Slash should have an animation similar to a Frenzy Barb on Diablo 2!


Not only that but when you must ST only it's going to be a real damper on you dps.
05/29/2018 09:28 PMPosted by Rikar
05/29/2018 08:57 PMPosted by Spòoky
I think WW being the new single target filler is bad, WW should be AoE because having natural AoE means the rest of the AoE isn't going to be as impactful. PvP WW is going to be bad for cc'd targets. Also, Furious Slash should have an animation similar to a Frenzy Barb on Diablo 2!


Not only that but when you must ST only it's going to be a real damper on you dps.


I dunno, i think you have to not think of WW has aoe but has cleave - then it makes sense, we also used WW in the fury rotation from Vanilla->Wrath so it is a nice callback. Also its not like we are the only spec in game that has the cleave issue - rogues and poison bomb, fire mages and ignite,i think frost DKS have a cone cleave has well or at least did at one point in the game.

It will also make wrecking ball so much easier to use it doesn't feel like an utter shock to have to all of a sudden to have to throw it in somewhere. And with the current changes so far, i think blade storm will also be useful once again, so that will be our main AOE above spamming whirlwind.

I also fits with out motif - A raging berserker that will relentlessly attack our target and anything that gets close.

And from what i recall, the ONLY fight i know of in legion at least that you don't want cleave is Aggramar on heroic/ mythic, even then its 95% of the time a non issue because the adds are far enough away to not hit them,
05/29/2018 09:55 PMPosted by Kazecap
I dunno, i think you have to not think of WW has aoe but has cleave - then it makes sense, we also used WW in the fury rotation from Vanilla->Wrath so it is a nice callback


This is true Fury was the AoE sustian damage spec for years, Arms was slow spiky damage. WW was in fact part of Furrys normal rotation for a long time, but back then you didn't have mechanics where you could not touch any mob but one or else bad thing would happen.

I remember not to long ago where our raid leader said "I better not see anyone attacking any other mob but the marked target, NO AOE". This happens when you have to drop mobs in a certain order and in a certain amount of time. Like when you only want one mob to explode at a time upon death.

I'm not using blade Storm it seems to be a DPS loss in ST. So unless bosses have loads of adds on them Blade Storm is going to be garbage IMO. I think its like 3,500 damage over 5 seconds, well I'm running at least 1.7k dps so far (110 starer gear), so that's like 2.5 seconds and I'v out damaged Blade Storm. Also, I think Fury is sub par on the damage right now, I think it's around 25 -30% low. Since I can keep up 2.2k pretty easy on a BM and Rogue, I can easily pull 2k+ on a pali. So I hope they still plan to buff fury some more.
There are a buttload of specs that have unavoidable aoe damage, I don't think it is intrinsically problematic.

Here is a list off the top of my head:
All tanks
Frost mage
Fire mage
Havoc
WW Monk
Frost DK
Unholy DK
Demo lock
Survival Hunter
Moonkin

All of those classes aoe to a varying degree as part of their standard ST rotation.
Simple answer is leave to all these AOE add concerns is leave FS in game , but keep these new changes to WW. For those 1 percent situations you can just add FS back to your bar.
After further looking into it, WW would fit perfectly as a filler, hoeever it should apply Frenzy rather than Furious Slash when the talent it taken.
05/30/2018 08:11 AMPosted by Spòõky
After further looking into it, WW would fit perfectly as a filler, hoeever it should apply Frenzy rather than Furious Slash when the talent it taken.


Furious slash is being removed as a base line spell and added to the frenzy talent, which means when you talent Frenzy you will get Furious Slash back in order to apply it.

I'm not a fan of this idea. Furious slash is a low priority ability that you will exclude from your rotation at the earliest opportunity in favour of better abilities.

I wrote about this a while ago regarding the conflict between Furious Slash and the +% crit buff. It's not a good design to put an important buff on an ability that you don't want to use unless you have nothing else to do. It creates a conflict of interest about either ignoring the buff or prioritising a weaker ability over a stronger one to get it.

Currently when we're AoEing we will never press furious slash. This means that Frenzy is only good in pure single target situations.

I strongly recommend that Frenzy is added to blood thirst and furious slash is just removed entirely.
05/30/2018 09:36 AMPosted by Euphanicen
05/30/2018 08:11 AMPosted by Spòõky
After further looking into it, WW would fit perfectly as a filler, hoeever it should apply Frenzy rather than Furious Slash when the talent it taken.


Furious slash is being removed as a base line spell and added to the frenzy talent, which means when you talent Frenzy you will get Furious Slash back in order to apply it.

I'm not a fan of this idea. Furious slash is a low priority ability that you will exclude from your rotation at the earliest opportunity in favour of better abilities.

I wrote about this a while ago regarding the conflict between Furious Slash and the +% crit buff. It's not a good design to put an important buff on an ability that you don't want to use unless you have nothing else to do. It creates a conflict of interest about either ignoring the buff or prioritising a weaker ability over a stronger one to get it.

Currently when we're AoEing we will never press furious slash. This means that Frenzy is only good in pure single target situations.

I strongly recommend that Frenzy is added to blood thirst and furious slash is just removed entirely.


Decisions are something they want you to make.
after 1 week of letting everything sink for me I come to accept that having WW be a filler is not actually that bad and if there is a talent row like the 100 talents I be pretty happy. That said this is what I see happening going forward.

Talents

LVL 15, 30, 60 are all fine and I really happy how they current sit. No real criticism here.

LvL 45 Cooldowns:
Reckless Abandon is great here

Outburst needs to be removed and replaced by Bloodbath to create a colossal smash window

Avatar works... not great but having 2 Cooldowns in a row can be a thing.

Hopes and dreams is Avatar and Bloodbath are just merged into Recklessness in some form

LvL 75 Rampage
Carnage is great talent but a little more of a buff to compete or other talents that supports such a fast paced rotation

Massacre had no real meaning anymore. Most like replaced by a free rampage proc from melee swings or bleed damage

Froathing berserker is great

LvL 90 Rotation.
Frenzy/ Furious strike becoming a talent works for me. Patchwerks fights this talent will be the shinning star

Inner Rage will likely change to simply buff the damage of Raging blow or give it a bleed. Not much can be done here.

Bloodbath should be replaced with Wrecking ball to reinforce WW being a filler. It makes sense.

LvL 100 Aoe.

BladeStorm is going to get buffed to be more burst. 4 sec enrage seems to counter intervene unless bladestorm hits trigger enrage upon every hit on target.

Dragon Roar will also be buffed and give 20 rage

Wrecking ball replaced by WW legendary belt talent but I would not be suprised if its more to do with something like Meat Cleaver does 80% cleave damage

Outside of that im pretty happy. I guess we will see how it goes.
05/24/2018 07:19 PMPosted by Seph
Furious SlashFurious Slash didn’t really found its place on the spec. it’s a no-cooldown free filler that didn’t feel great to press, largely as a direct result of being the lowest priority/impact ability by design. The version of Furious Slash you’re seeing this week is a first iteration, where we tried giving it more tie-ins to your core rotation/mechanics: Generates 3 Rage, has 10% chance to trigger Enrage.Playing this version some more internally, we thought the button felt better, but still didn’t feel great to press. Additionally, it overlaps some with Whirlwind, which is also a baseline no-cooldown free filler. So we’re going to try removing Furious Slash baseline and making Whirlwind the baseline filler in single-target. Whirlwind has the benefit of having better audio/visual feedback, and generally feeling better to press. It also just fits the fantasy of a whirling blademaster/berserker pretty well. It will generate 3 Rage + 1 additional per target hit, up to a maximum of 8 Rage (this is intended to also speed up the AOE rotation). Furious Slash is being merged together with Frenzy (talent) and becoming a talent in that slot, without the new experimental 10% chance to trigger Enrage mechanic.


I would really like to get a chance to test this change. Will it be in a build we can try or was this in home build change already reversed?
Furious slash is still on the beta. It has the 10% chance to enrage and generates 3 rage.

WW also currently generates rage.

Outside of personal preference either filler is fine. Neither feels great to press on their own. Wrecking balls feels awesome which give more weight to WW.

Now FS. With or without the talent frenzy, FS is just a filler. It feels meh. This fine since you only press it rarely.

Possibly could have frenzy do double its dmg and only stack twice, each stack 7.5%. Here is were things could differ.
Option 1) Frenzy is off the standard gcd. Costs a bit if rage.

Option 2) Frenzy generates no rage and has a 1.5 sec gcd.

Option 3) Rename frenzy to heroic strike. Give it a 3 second cd and remove it from gcd. Generates no rage. Cd reduced by haste.
05/30/2018 09:36 AMPosted by Euphanicen
05/30/2018 08:11 AMPosted by Spòõky
After further looking into it, WW would fit perfectly as a filler, hoeever it should apply Frenzy rather than Furious Slash when the talent it taken.


Furious slash is being removed as a base line spell and added to the frenzy talent, which means when you talent Frenzy you will get Furious Slash back in order to apply it.

I'm not a fan of this idea. Furious slash is a low priority ability that you will exclude from your rotation at the earliest opportunity in favour of better abilities.

I wrote about this a while ago regarding the conflict between Furious Slash and the +% crit buff. It's not a good design to put an important buff on an ability that you don't want to use unless you have nothing else to do. It creates a conflict of interest about either ignoring the buff or prioritising a weaker ability over a stronger one to get it.

Currently when we're AoEing we will never press furious slash. This means that Frenzy is only good in pure single target situations.

I strongly recommend that Frenzy is added to blood thirst and furious slash is just removed entirely.
It's not that hard, you just push it once every 8 seconds or so to keep the buff up for 15% haste. I always had a spot of free space though to use FS, so I did not find it hard at all.
05/30/2018 09:36 AMPosted by Euphanicen
05/30/2018 08:11 AMPosted by Spòõky
After further looking into it, WW would fit perfectly as a filler, hoeever it should apply Frenzy rather than Furious Slash when the talent it taken.


Furious slash is being removed as a base line spell and added to the frenzy talent, which means when you talent Frenzy you will get Furious Slash back in order to apply it.

I'm not a fan of this idea. Furious slash is a low priority ability that you will exclude from your rotation at the earliest opportunity in favour of better abilities.

I wrote about this a while ago regarding the conflict between Furious Slash and the +% crit buff. It's not a good design to put an important buff on an ability that you don't want to use unless you have nothing else to do. It creates a conflict of interest about either ignoring the buff or prioritising a weaker ability over a stronger one to get it.

Currently when we're AoEing we will never press furious slash. This means that Frenzy is only good in pure single target situations.

I strongly recommend that Frenzy is added to blood thirst and furious slash is just removed entirely.


Yeah, in my opinion Fury would be perfect if WW applied Frenzy buff if the Frenzy Talent is taken.
05/30/2018 10:28 AMPosted by Eolas
05/30/2018 09:36 AMPosted by Euphanicen
...

Furious slash is being removed as a base line spell and added to the frenzy talent, which means when you talent Frenzy you will get Furious Slash back in order to apply it.

I'm not a fan of this idea. Furious slash is a low priority ability that you will exclude from your rotation at the earliest opportunity in favour of better abilities.

I wrote about this a while ago regarding the conflict between Furious Slash and the +% crit buff. It's not a good design to put an important buff on an ability that you don't want to use unless you have nothing else to do. It creates a conflict of interest about either ignoring the buff or prioritising a weaker ability over a stronger one to get it.

Currently when we're AoEing we will never press furious slash. This means that Frenzy is only good in pure single target situations.

I strongly recommend that Frenzy is added to blood thirst and furious slash is just removed entirely.


Decisions are something they want you to make.


This isn't a decision, it's a conflict of interest that is resolved by maths.

Is the buff strong enough that it's worth prioritising a weak ability over a strong one? If yes then this is what you do. If no, then the talent is worthless.

Neither option feels particularly good to play with.
We’ve been iterating on Fury Warrior since last week, and the next Beta build will again be a slightly out-of-date version of Fury compared to we have internally at this moment.

To give an update: everything on the baseline spec described last week hasn’t changed. However, many talents have been adjusted, moved, or replaced to better fit together with the updates to the Fury spec.

Level 15, 30, 60 rows: No changes since last week/last Beta build.

Level 45 row: Inner Rage, Sudden Death, Furious Slash – this row speed up/adds to the rotation

Inner Rage is now -1 sec off the base cooldown of Raging Blow (which is now 8 sec base cooldown) and increases its damage. Simple and direct, and does the job of slightly speeding up/adding to the rotation.

Sudden Death is the same talent many know, adjusted for Fury – “Your attacks have a chance to reset the cooldown of Execute and make it usable on any target, regardless of their health.” It replaces Wrecking Ball in the talent tree, and fills the role of “occasionally inserts an ability into your rotation” better than Wrecking Ball does, because Whirlwind is now already used often as part of your single-target rotation. Additionally, now that Execute generates 20 Rage for Fury, this proc will also serve to slightly speed up the rotation, which is desirable on this talent row.

Furious Slash is the Furious Slash attack (from live) combined with Frenzy (the talent from live), as described last week, granting Haste per stack, stacking up to 3. It serves as the higher-complexity talent that add a brand new button to your rotation. The Haste granted has been reduced to a more appropriate level (2% per stack, pending playtesting/feedback/tuning) considering the spec now has 25% Haste baseline from Enrage, and with another talent (Frothing Berserker) also providing 10% Haste occasionally.

Level 75 row: Carnage, Massacre, Frothing Berserker

Massacre has been redesigned into “Execute is now usable on targets below 35% health”. Now that Execute has a cooldown and generates Rage, the live Legion version doesn’t make much sense anymore – it would've just amounted to a Rage proc on Execute. Additionally, Execute adds a significant amount to the rotation already when it's available – any redesign that made that Execute window even more impacted by adding more resources or buttons to press didn’t seem to overall improve the Execute rotation. Instead, widening the window during which you can use Execute, made more sense.

On Execute’s cooldown, which is currently 6 sec (reduced by Haste, ending up at ~4.2 sec with Enrage up): Currently, there are no lack of buttons to press during Execute windows, with Execute being available on every 4th ability use (at a high priority), and pushing some other buttons out to make room for itself. We think Execute being any lower cooldown makes the Fury rotation more cramped during Execute, and not any better overall.

Carnage and Frothing Berserker are unchanged since last week.

Level 90 row: Meat Cleaver, Dragon Roar, Bladestorm – this row is primarily AOE

Whirlwind still has its baseline mechanic of making your next 2 attacks strike up to 4 additional targets for 40% damage (this mechanic/buff is called Meat Cleaver on live). That proc/buff has been renamed to simply “Whirlwind” because if anyone referred to Meat Cleaver when talking about Fury, it wasn’t possible to find those words anywhere in the spellbook, which made it harder to learn about the mechanic. Meat Cleaver, the new talent, uses that name, and gives Whirlwind a 10% chance to Enrage you and causes it to generate an additional 1 Rage per target hit (up to 3 additional Rage), pending tuning.

Dragon Roar’s cooldown has been increased to 40 sec (up from 25 sec), radius has been increased to 12 yds (up from 8 yds), damage increased significantly, and it now generates 10 Rage. The goal is to put it much closer to Odyn’s Fury in usage and damage impact (high cooldown, more one-hit damage). Generating a respectable amount of Rage allows it to be used during Recklessness without you feeling like you’re missing out on its potential Rage generation increase.

Bladestorm’s duration has been reduced to 3 sec (down from 6 sec), cooldown reduced to 1 min (down from 1.5 min), and now generates 20 Rage over the duration. Shortening the duration allows Bladestorm to fit into an Enrage window (without requiring extreme amounts of Haste) if used right after after gaining Enrage, and a shorter duration/cooldown Bladestorm feels more like Fury anyways.

Level 100 row: Reckless Abandon, Anger Management, Siegebreaker – this row modifies or adds damage bonuses

Reckless Abandon is a fine talent, no changes.

Anger Management has been added to Fury, reducing the cooldown of Recklessness by 1 sec for every 25 Rage you spend. Recklessness is cool, so why not have it more often?

When looking at the third talent slot on this row, we tried various version of Bloodbath or Avatar at different cooldowns, or with different mechanics, or with up-front damage, and even a version where the talent literally just cast both Avatar and Recklessness for 15 sec with a 1.5-2 min CD. In the end we concluded:
  • Any version that was a separate self-buff damage cooldown button didn’t feel great to press consecutively with Recklessness, because you’re pressing two straight abilities which both feel more like self-buffs than attacks
  • Any version that made Recklessness stronger (high damage/amplitude) or replaced Recklessness with an ability with a 1.5 min cooldown, felt too similar to Reckless Abandon
  • Any version that made Recklessness shorter cooldown was Anger Management
  • Any version that made Recklessness a longer cooldown or replaced it with a new spell with a longer cooldown, didn’t feel great because you were taking a talent that made Recklessness available less often
  • In the end, we’re going to try a cooldown attack that debuffs the target, increasing your damage done to them for a duration. This synergizes with Recklessness in a way that feels better – Recklessness first to buff yourself, then a heavy attack against the enemy. The intended gameplay is: Build up Rage -> Siegebreaker -> Rampage -> Rebuild Rage -> Rampage before Siegebreaker ends. Correct tuning on the duration will allow 2 Rampages to be doable during one Siegebreaker, but not trivial to do mindlessly. During Recklessness you should be able to get off three Rampages in the Siegebreaker window.

    Siegebreaker (30 sec cooldown, Generates 15 Rage): Break the enemy’s defenses, dealing [120% AP] Physical damage, and increasing your damage done to the target by 20% for 10 sec.

    Notes:
    • Outburst, Bloodbath, and Avatar have been removed from Fury.
    • Auto attack damage, as a portion of your overall damage, has been reduced. This came from increasing the damage of most abilities on the spec. Our target for auto attack damage on Fury is currently much closer to 25% of your overall damage than 50%.

    Thanks for the continued feedback here and everywhere else.
    Hi Seph

    Cheers for taking on board some of the points here, specifically that Dragon Roar and Bladestorm need to generate rage in order to be useful during the new Recklessness. I also appreciate the changes to Dragon Roar to make it more of an 'odyn's fury' type ability.

    So far good looking changes.

    05/30/2018 07:13 PMPosted by Seph
    The intended gameplay is: Build up Rage -> Siegebreaker -> Rampage -> Rebuild Rage -> Rampage before Siegebreaker ends. Correct tuning on the duration will allow 2 Rampages to be doable during one Siegebreaker, but not trivial to do mindlessly. During Recklessness you should be able to get off three Rampages in the Siegebreaker window.


    If this is the intended play-style, I can spot one flaw in it. Largely that you're going to always want to press Siege Breaker while enraged for that sweet mastery bonus. This shouldn't be *overly* hard during the regular rotation, however it becomes a challenge when you add Recklessness into the mix. Essentially, with a 4 second enrage, we'll need to precast Rampage, then cast Recklessness, then cast Siegebreaker, then enrage will fall off and we'll have to spend a few of our GCDs during Recklessness+Siegebreaker without enrage up as we quickly build up for another Rampage.

    Reckless Abandon solves this issue, however the sucess of one talent not be dependent on a second talent.

    I suggest that Siegebreaker provides enrage, or maybe has a cool 'extends the duration of your current enrage by X seconds' which wouldn't overly matter during Recklessness since we're pumping Rampages, but could serve as a mini burst window outside of your Recklessness usages.
    Thanks for the update Sephuz. I gotta say, this all sounds pretty good, and I'm greatly looking forward to testing first hand, although I have a few pieces of preliminary feedback:

    Dragon Roar v Bloodbath
    If for no other reason than thematically, I think Bloodbath is a much better alternative to Dragon Roar; honestly, even if they do the same thing overall, Dragon Roar simply has little connection to the Warrior class (Prot to a small degree), and I feel like hitting things with your weapon is more visceral and "Warrior-like" than yelling at them to deal damage, despite shouts also being an inherent part of the toolkit. I realize, ultimately, it doesn't make a big difference, but felt it should be said. If Dragon Roar does stay, I certainly think it could use better audio feedback than the current Chicken Squawk.

    Bladestorm and Enrage
    I'm glad this problem has been addressed, although I still think that making it always deal damage as if Enraged, or simply trigger Enrage, is a much better solution. Despite removing Avatar and Bloodbath from the equation, using Bladestorm is a still a 3 step process:
    Recklessness - Rampage for Enrage - Bladestorm

    Not including the need to pool up enough rage to Rampage ahead of time (if not using RA, which you likely won't be for bursty AoE) and I just don't think this lead up is necessarily fun or interesting.

    Alternatively, Recklessness could just lose the 20% crit chance, to help decouple it from Bladestorm, though you'd still have the issue of trying to pool rage before Bladestorm making the button difficult to use on demand.

    Dragon Roar v Bladestorm
    I feel like these two are a bit too close together in terms of functionality. Right now the row has constant multi-target, 40s burst AoE, and 1m burst AoE, which leans it a little too heavily to the right (exactly the opposite of its previous problem with DR at 25s and BS at 1.5m). Although I'm very happy with Fury being able to better compete with Arms frequency of AoE, I think it might help to space them out a little more evenly.

    Siegebreaker
    Granted it is a talent, so this may or may not be considered a bad thing, but I do feel it's a little too "damage window"-centric, which it seemed like Fury had been trying to get away from and leave as Arms' wheelhouse.

    Enrage uptime and Haste
    Especially with the loss of innate 10% chance to Enrage on Furious Slash, I feel like Bloodthirst's chance to Enrage could be *slightly* higher (35-40% at the most). I believe most would agree that the target range for comfort throughout Legion has been around 70-75% Enrage uptime, with 60% being considered low.

    Haste also ties into this. Enrage granting a chunk of Haste is great, but I feel like there's too big of a swing between not/having extra Haste talents. One (Frenzy) may be alright, but I'd much prefer more Haste from Enrage proper and less from talents. I'd consider a target range somewhere ~60% Haste with Enrage making Fury feel unique and furious while still leaving room for Heroism effects, but that doesn't happen with Frenzy and Frothing pushing that number up toward 80%, or even higher when compounded with Enchants, Trinkets, buffs, etc.

    ------------------------------

    Just my 2c on the matter. I'm excited to test these changes and provide more feedback.
    I hope avatar isnt removed from warriors as a whole. I always liked it as it allowed me play out my old WC3 Mountain King fantasy :(

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