Healers for BfA

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
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05/27/2018 05:03 AMPosted by Saiyoran

Shamans feel the same as live. Their kit is okay, but they don't pump enough burst healing on demand without cooldowns, and their survivability is still awful. The interrupt is nice, but they offer almost no dps, low mobility, and low survivability.
It's weird, because in part expansions with basically the same toolkit and the same Mastery Resto Shamans had really strong AoE and ST burst healing (and their Mastery is really good for that, in fact). It's amazing what a few nerfs (in Legion, and a few more in BfA for good measure) to the strength and flexibility of those tools will do.

I miss having a Healing Tide Totem that didn't need other cooldowns stacked on it to do any good.
05/27/2018 08:00 AMPosted by Tiberria
Resto Druid is a bit of a mess right now. Also, all the people claiming "Resto Druid is always a top healer" are ridiculous - unless they are talking about 5 mans and not raids. Even when the spec is dominating every other spec in throughput - Nighthold is a ridiculous example - it was still only considered #3 as a must have component of a raid comp - Holy Pallies and Resto Shaman were still more valuable/mandatory.

Top 2 in M+ and top 3 in Raids is quite good, it's in the top half on both categories, only Holy Paladin was better than that in Legion. Resto Druid kit is just very versatile, it will still be a very desired healer, as for the topic of being mandatory, the issue is not Resto Druids not being mandatory, the issue with the ones that are (Holy Paladin). As for Resto Shamans I don't think is mandatory, my guild is doing fine in Mythic w/o one, sure it would be nice to have but is not mandatory outside of maybe top 100 guilds.

05/27/2018 08:00 AMPosted by Tiberria
- Bear Form was nerfed. Frenzied Regen was nerfed. Frenzied Regen was cut down to 1 charge instead of 2. Survivability is nowhere near what it is on live.

Yet it is still better than any other healer except maybe Holy Paladin.
05/27/2018 08:00 AMPosted by Tiberria
- The spell based tuning is completely messed up right now. In particular, Wild Growth at current tuning numbers is basically not worth casting period (except maybe once every 90 seconds with Flourish). Wild Growth is lower HPM than just spamming Rejuv, so the spec is going to be very close to a 1 button spec without Abundance, and a Rejuv/Regrowth alternating spec with Abundance. Combine that with losing Germination as a playstyle option (there is no way you can drop Flourish to take it in a raid), and there isn't much left in terms of playstyle options at all. Wild Growth needs to be fixed.

That's just tuning.

05/27/2018 08:00 AMPosted by Tiberria
Unless the spec is #1 or #2 in terms of output, like it was in Nighthold or Firelands, it's going to be absolute garbage as a raiding spec.

Agree that it may need some compensation for all the stuff that they lost but that doesn't mean they'll be garbage, Holy Priests and MW monks didn't bring anything special in Legion and while they were not the best for top en raiding they weren't garbage either for the other 99% of players. I actually think it will have higher throughput thanks to tranq being stronger (its gonna takeover Aura of Sac as the strongest raid CD).
05/27/2018 05:03 AMPosted by Saiyoran
People sleeping on BfA Mistweaver Monk in this thread. Aside from the usual issues of Pally/Druid being unkillable monsters, MW's actual throughput is really strong on beta atm. They have the tools to deal with sustained tank damage, burst single target damage, sustain group damage, and burst group damage effectively, which is more than can be said for them in m+ in Legion. Their issue is only going to be when we get to key levels that one shot repeatedly, and I'm still holding out hope that the devs aren't dumb enough to strap half the bosses in the xpac with "targets random player x with damage that's twice their hp bar every 30 seconds" mechanics like they did in Legion.

Disc also feels really strong. It's basically Legion Disc with some QoL changes that improve its ability to deal with 5-man damage. We'll see how Sins of the Many and the Lenience reposition play out, but right now they look decent.

Shamans feel the same as live. Their kit is okay, but they don't pump enough burst healing on demand without cooldowns, and their survivability is still awful. The interrupt is nice, but they offer almost no dps, low mobility, and low survivability.

Druids will be strong again. Bear form on demand is enough to make sure of it.

Paladins feel significantly weaker than live, which is nice since they're unbelievably good on live, but I think a lot of it is numbers tuning and they'll be dominant again after being buffed. They have too much utility not to be a good pick.

Holy is still bad.


Agree with you 100%, I actually just got my MW to 120 a few days ago and was finally able to test it in Dungeons got the gear to do heroics and gotta say it feels super strong compared to my Disc priest (even though my MW is 305 and my Disc is like 325).

I think it's not just a matter of tuning, the kit MW have now gives them really good burst both single target and AOE, almost felt like the priest needed to Purge/MassDispel things to prevent big damage otherwise I would not be able to heal it while on the MW I could just heal through it (since ofc the shaman in the group had no clue of what purge was), but not all damage is based on purgable buffs so.. The issue with Disc priest is that atonement scales well in large groups but is not strong enough in 5-mans, the new talent 'Sins of the Many' may fix that but the initial version at least looks too weak to make any real difference.

In legion and with a good group Disc was clearly behind Pallys and Druids but wasn't super bad (even saw a couple in MDI) mainly because on most cases Legion dungeons had periods of no damage (where the rDruid would even go cat form) and others of strong burst or one-shot mechanics so having bad sustained healing wasn't a super big deal for Disc. BFA is looking a lot different though and there's a higher requirement for sustained healing so in it's current state it feels to me like Disc will not have enough throughput.

As for Holy Priest, I think it's pretty clear that it has good throughput, specially sustained but it is super frail and immobile.

Looking to me like Holy Paladin will still be at the top, all their issues are tuning-related and is easy to see that's gonna be fixed, they need to be competitive in raids where for the most part what they do is spot healing, so that needs to be on par with other healers doing AOE stuff, translate that to a 5-man and it clearly favors the spot healing style.

I think MW, Resto Druid, and Shaman will also be good and swap positions depending on the dungeon/affixes.. For Burst healing you take MW, for sustained you take Druid and for utility (purge is a big deal now) you take shaman.

And sadly for me I see priest (both specs) being at the bottom.

Ofc is beta and things may change
Druid and HPal gonna be fine - still the best damage mitigation of all heals. Disc will be alright with monk. Shaman lookin rough with hpriest. As long as the gaps are lessened from Legion I don’t think it’ll matter a ton, but that’s a big if.
As a tank up to heroics, I can safely say that most healers are ok.
Concerned with shamans in 5man. Their spells don't "hit like a truck" like I expected since they have to stop to cast and they are the only healer that I have seen wipes even when everything is under control.
I'm impressed with Holy Priest and Monks, they are really fine, as all the other healers. They need to drink now and than, but ok. H Pallies are really balanced.
RDruids are simply the best, seldom have to drink and do the job fine than, go do DPS.
If you don't like to sweat to do the job other healers do, play Rdruid IMHO. when you're sweating, other healing specs would already let the grp wipe, so Rdruids can go further.
05/28/2018 03:49 PMPosted by Felgong
H Pallies are really balanced.

05/28/2018 10:36 AMPosted by Aforethought
HPal gonna be fine

05/28/2018 10:16 AMPosted by Holymonky
Looking to me like Holy Paladin will still be at the top, all their issues are tuning-related


Please don't make claims about things you do not understand, you mislead the devs, Holy Paladins are not okay.

Notice the people making claims that Holy Paladins are fine are not Holy Paladins. Leave the Holy Paladin feedback to those who have main the spec.

It is not just tuning, not only do our heals need massive buffs but our mechanics need adjustments too.
Care to elaborate Arnath?

And just because you don’t main something doesn’t mean you don’t understand the class. You can be knowledgeable of more than one class/spec.

And to me it’s felt fine. Just need numbers to be tuned. The only thing that feels off is the new Aura of Sac. But that’s one talent.
05/27/2018 12:58 AMPosted by Arnath
Holy Paladins are currently (on Beta) the weakest healers. Tuning will not fix this. We need mechanic changes.

The main Holy Paladin thread has been discussing this for weeks but the devs haven't responded.

I'm glad i got my Monk to 110 because it looks like that will be my new healer main in BfA.
You're wrong. Paladins are strong because of mechanics, not numbers. Numbers will be changed, but h.pld mechanics remain strong.

People commenting on threads like this more often than not have not only multiple characters they heal on, but also multiple accounts (wink wink). Don't pretend you know more because you're posting on a paladin.
05/28/2018 08:12 PMPosted by Arnath
05/28/2018 03:49 PMPosted by Felgong
H Pallies are really balanced.

05/28/2018 10:36 AMPosted by Aforethought
HPal gonna be fine

05/28/2018 10:16 AMPosted by Holymonky
Looking to me like Holy Paladin will still be at the top, all their issues are tuning-related


Please don't make claims about things you do not understand, you mislead the devs, Holy Paladins are not okay.

Notice the people making claims that Holy Paladins are fine are not Holy Paladins. Leave the Holy Paladin feedback to those who have main the spec.

It is not just tuning, not only do our heals need massive buffs but our mechanics need adjustments too.


I’ve been playin holy Paladin for years. Just because I post on a priest doesn’t mean I haven’t played every healer to a significant degree. Or do I have to wake up and put on armor every morning and yell some olde English to “be a paladin”?
05/28/2018 10:16 AMPosted by Holymonky

I think MW, Resto Druid, and Shaman will also be good and swap positions depending on the dungeon/affixes.. For Burst healing you take MW, for sustained you take Druid and for utility (purge is a big deal now) you take shaman.

And sadly for me I see priest (both specs) being at the bottom.

Ofc is beta and things may change
Remember that Priests also have purge.
05/28/2018 08:38 PMPosted by Phatori
Care to elaborate Arnath?


It has been discussed heaps in the main Paladin thread, no point repeating it again here.

But the basics: Our heals need massive buffs, half our talents are dead or useless, and our gameplay is far to simple, boring and problematic with a single spell carrying this broken spec.

05/28/2018 09:08 PMPosted by Delekii
You're wrong. Paladins are strong because of mechanics, not numbers. Numbers will be changed, but h.pld mechanics remain strong.


By mechanics you mean Devotion Aura and double Beacons? Sure, perhaps you are right, those two things will make sure at least one Holy Paladin has a raid spot. But if that is the only thing keeping this spec afloat then Holy Paladins are far worse than i feared.
05/28/2018 08:12 PMPosted by Arnath
Notice the people making claims that Holy Paladins are fine are not Holy Paladins. Leave the Holy Paladin feedback to those who have main the spec.


The feedback Holy Paladins provided about Holy Paladins for Legion is exactly why Holy Paladins are stupidly strong on Live and have been for the whole expansion. I can't think of a time where any healer was as blatantly OP relative to all other healers as Holy Paladins are right now and sustained it for years.

Holy Paladins won't like being brought into line with other healers in BfA and I bet Holy Paladin feedback will reflect that but that is tough. I'm hoping BfA brings Holy Paladins back to the real world where specs have weaknesses rather than just strengths stacked ontop of unparalleled utility and defense.

Maybe thanks to feedback provided by healers who aren't Blizzard's favoured healing spec will mean the next MDI won't have 100% Holy Paladin compositions.
05/28/2018 11:38 PMPosted by Ryfe
The feedback Holy Paladins provided about Holy Paladins for Legion is exactly why Holy Paladins are stupidly strong on Live and have been for the whole expansion.


Notice the only people attacking Holy Paladins and spreading lies about them are Priests. I don't blame you, considering throughout Legion Holy Priests were seen as "subpar Paladins".
Please don't use your own specs problems to drag down another class, provide feedback and vent all you like but dragging down Holy Paladins will not achieve anything.

Holy Paladins are not "stupidly strong", we have many weaknesses and to make up for those weaknesses we preform strong in certain areas. We are equal to many of the other healers.

05/28/2018 11:38 PMPosted by Ryfe
I can't think of a time where any healer was as blatantly OP relative to all other healers as Holy Paladins are right now and sustained it for years.


I have been playing since Classic WoW, i can not think of a single time when Holy Paladins were OP. Strong yes, but not OP.

05/28/2018 11:38 PMPosted by Ryfe
Holy Paladins won't like being brought into line with other healers in BfA and I bet Holy Paladin feedback will reflect that but that is tough. I'm hoping BfA brings Holy Paladins back to the real world where specs have weaknesses rather than just strengths stacked ontop of unparalleled utility and defense.


On live we are already in line with most healers, the current healer balance on live is for the most part the best it has ever been, at least in regards to raiding.

Currently on Beta we are the weakest healers, the facts clearly show this, the data is there to see. I understand you dislike Holy Paladins but under-performing is not equal.

Out of all other healers in this game Holy Paladins have the mot weaknesses, in fact out of all specs in the game, tanks and dps included, Holy Paladins have the most weaknesses. We have nearly no AoE heals with the one AoE heal we do have being limited to a problematic cone, no smart heals, no HoTs, our own heals and cooldowns damage us for Elunes sake!
05/29/2018 01:37 AMPosted by Arnath
05/28/2018 11:38 PMPosted by Ryfe
The feedback Holy Paladins provided about Holy Paladins for Legion is exactly why Holy Paladins are stupidly strong on Live and have been for the whole expansion.


Notice the only people attacking Holy Paladins and spreading lies about them are Priests. I don't blame you, considering throughout Legion Holy Priests were seen as "subpar Paladins".
Please don't use your own specs problems to drag down another class, provide feedback and vent all you like but dragging down Holy Paladins will not achieve anything.

Holy Paladins are not "stupidly strong", we have many weaknesses and to make up for those weaknesses we preform strong in certain areas. We are equal to many of the other healers.

05/28/2018 11:38 PMPosted by Ryfe
I can't think of a time where any healer was as blatantly OP relative to all other healers as Holy Paladins are right now and sustained it for years.


I have been playing since Classic WoW, i can not think of a single time when Holy Paladins were OP. Strong yes, but not OP.

05/28/2018 11:38 PMPosted by Ryfe
Holy Paladins won't like being brought into line with other healers in BfA and I bet Holy Paladin feedback will reflect that but that is tough. I'm hoping BfA brings Holy Paladins back to the real world where specs have weaknesses rather than just strengths stacked ontop of unparalleled utility and defense.


On live we are already in line with most healers, the current healer balance on live is for the most part the best it has ever been, at least in regards to raiding.

Currently on Beta we are the weakest healers, the facts clearly show this, the data is there to see. I understand you dislike Holy Paladins but under-performing is not equal.

Out of all other healers in this game Holy Paladins have the mot weaknesses, in fact out of all specs in the game, tanks and dps included, Holy Paladins have the most weaknesses. We have nearly no AoE heals with the one AoE heal we do have being limited to a problematic cone, no smart heals, no HoTs, our own heals and cooldowns damage us for Elunes sake!


You mean to tell me that aura of sacrifice doing more healing as a PASSIVE ability than any other healer's CASTED heals does not constitute as being overpowered? This was in MYTHIC level content alongside a disc priest who timed their lights wrath down to half a second to burst heal people back to full; for much of legion they were leaps and bounds above other healers because of insanely strong spot healing (holy words from holy priests being comparable, however holy shock frequently out healed even that).

Your argument speaking about weak aoe heals- that's a tuning issue (also slightly intentional, holy paladins !@#$ing niche since vanilla, which I saw you mention here, has been tank/single target spot healing)- weak hps currently- that's a tuning issue- the one singular weakness holy paladins have that is not outshone by other aspects (mobility being a potential weakness, though they do have one cd, is largely combated by survivability; hence paladins being one of the two best classes for high M+) is healing multiple targets a large amount at the same time; beacons help with this obviously, but without the overpowered piece of garbage that was aura of sac you don't have an option to carry a raid anymore.

Half of your argument is basically" I see that class having something shiny I don't have" and not looking at what you do which, after proper tuning, is insanely high spot healing and consistent tank healing with some very powerful(after tuning- looking at you blessing of sac) cooldowns.

Yes, the class is boring; they were intended to be a simpler healer because their niche is to heal single targets at a time (multiple due to beacons), a niche which they (again, with proper tuning) do WELL. Each healer is supposed to have something that is their "own" whether it be hots, versatility, utility, single target/spot, aoe, etc etc... holy paladins just happens to be a niche which you do not enjoy.

However, I will agree that several talents are dead talents, and in most cases (not aura of sacrifice, it needs to be removed instead of buffed) better tuning can help; not all talents can be fixed with tuning, but to imply that holy paladins have it the worst when most of the issues do in fact come from tuning (again, you can't really refute this as you mentioned raw data- which in this case is a tuning issue) and then telling people that they can't possibly know or comment on a class they don't post on is absurd. Like many have mentioned here it is not hard to learn another class, especially one as simple as holy paladin, so understand that your point of view is in fact biased.
05/29/2018 03:02 AMPosted by Auntehbelz
You mean to tell me that aura of sacrifice doing more healing as a PASSIVE ability than any other healer's CASTED heals does not constitute as being overpowered?


Do you mean active? AoS was strong when active, but one strong ability doesn't make us over powered. No one was stacking Holy Paladins for AoS. It was basically a stronger Tranquility. But the Aura has been destroyed now, making it never worth taking.

05/29/2018 03:02 AMPosted by Auntehbelz
Your argument speaking about weak aoe heals- that's a tuning issue (also slightly intentional, holy paladins !@#$ing niche since vanilla, which I saw you mention here, has been tank/single target spot healing)


Tuning will not make us viable AoE healers, that is a mechanic change. But i don't want to be a strong AoE healer, i know that is not our niche, i just used that as an example of one of our weaknesses to explain why we are stronger in other areas.

Also our niche has changed over the years, in Cataclysm when healing was homogenized all healers looked similar. But now we are "sniper support healers" but on Beta we fail to meet that niche.

05/29/2018 03:02 AMPosted by Auntehbelz
Half of your argument is basically" I see that class having something shiny I don't have"


I'm not saying that at all... my argument is we have a unique niche and we should be able to perform that niche stronger than other healers because we lack many things other healers have. Currently on Beta other healers perform our niche better than we do.

05/29/2018 03:02 AMPosted by Auntehbelz
holy paladins just happens to be a niche which you do not enjoy.


I have been playing a Holy Paladin in every expansion since classic WoW and i have enjoyed playing it in every expansion until this BfA Beta.
05/28/2018 11:38 PMPosted by Ryfe
The feedback Holy Paladins provided about Holy Paladins for Legion is exactly why Holy Paladins are stupidly strong on Live and have been for the whole expansion.


Notice the only people attacking Holy Paladins and spreading lies about them are Priests. I don't blame you, considering throughout Legion Holy Priests were seen as "subpar Paladins".
Please don't use your own specs problems to drag down another class, provide feedback and vent all you like but dragging down Holy Paladins will not achieve anything.

Holy Paladins are not "stupidly strong", we have many weaknesses and to make up for those weaknesses we preform strong in certain areas. We are equal to many of the other healers.
Who do you think you are convincing? I'm really interested to know. Holy paladins are ubiquitous in raid content and ubiquitous in high level mythic plus (beside druids). Saying that "a couple of abilities prop you up" is just nonsense, it has no meaning. The package of holy paladins as a whole is strong enough to make them top healers in all types of high level pve play.

If you want to make the argument that you don't enjoy that style or think it is cheesy or something go ahead, but arguing that is anything other than fact is straight nonsense.

On live we are already in line with most healers, the current healer balance on live is for the most part the best it has ever been, at least in regards to raiding.

Currently on Beta we are the weakest healers, the facts clearly show this, the data is there to see. I understand you dislike Holy Paladins but under-performing is not equal.

Currently on beta paladins are the weakest healers because their heals are absurdly undertuned, and for no other reason. The utility that paladins bring that made them strong in legion is largely untouched in bfa; this is particularly true of the reasons why they were strong in mythic+.

Out of all other healers in this game Holy Paladins have the mot weaknesses, in fact out of all specs in the game, tanks and dps included, Holy Paladins have the most weaknesses. We have nearly no AoE heals with the one AoE heal we do have being limited to a problematic cone, no smart heals, no HoTs, our own heals and cooldowns damage us for Elunes sake!

You describe things as weaknesses that simply aren't weaknesses. The only weakness from the above list that is actually a weakness is that your aoe healing is limited, and in that regard you make up for it by having aoe utility instead. Regardless, healers don't need to trade 1 for 1.

You don't have direct aoe heals, but you have aoe auras and redirect healing toward priority targets. You don't have hots, but you have strong cooldowns. You don't have smart heals, but you have beacons.

If you are somehow convinced that the package of holy paladin isn't strong given its relative non-change from BfA there is no way anyone is going to convince you. Needless to say, when numbers are tuned Holy Paladins will remain ubiquitous thanks to the utility that they still have and have had for a long time.

I'm not saying that at all... my argument is we have a unique niche and we should be able to perform that niche stronger than other healers because we lack many things other healers have. Currently on Beta other healers perform our niche better than we do.

I have been playing a Holy Paladin in every expansion since classic WoW and i have enjoyed playing it in every expansion until this BfA Beta.

Then stop playing it in the BfA Beta until numbers have been fixed. Mechanically it is the same spec with extremely minor changes, especially compared to most other specs. Holy paladin will be back to filling its unique niche at the top of the crop just as soon as numbers are balanced. Until that time, take a chill pill and play something else that you can enjoy.
Arnath and his dreams vs the world. What a thread.
Notice the only people attacking Holy Paladins and spreading lies about them are Priests. I don't blame you, considering throughout Legion Holy Priests were seen as "subpar Paladins".
Please don't use your own specs problems to drag down another class, provide feedback and vent all you like but dragging down Holy Paladins will not achieve anything.


If your spec is overtuned compared to others, you need to be brought in line. That's just how it goes. That being said, I have very little knowledge of PVE stuffs, so I'm not sure if Paladins are overtuned (even though the vast majority here says they are).
05/29/2018 08:00 AMPosted by Saiyangang
Notice the only people attacking Holy Paladins and spreading lies about them are Priests. I don't blame you, considering throughout Legion Holy Priests were seen as "subpar Paladins".
Please don't use your own specs problems to drag down another class, provide feedback and vent all you like but dragging down Holy Paladins will not achieve anything.


If your spec is overtuned compared to others, you need to be brought in line. That's just how it goes. That being said, I have very little knowledge of PVE stuffs, so I'm not sure if Paladins are overtuned (even though the vast majority here says they are).

Paladins aren't really overtuned on live, they just have specific strengths that are mandatory for mythic+. To whit: paladins and druids survive mechanics that other healers don't, and thus are ubiquitous in high mythic+.

The aren't problematic in raiding and won't be in bfa either. Blizzard have hopefully learned from legion and there won't be as many one-shot mechanics that necessitate higher hp to survive, because if there are it won't matter what toolkit or healing any healer brings; it'll only be who can survive the mechanics again.

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