Remember When: No Flying In WoD

General Discussion
Prev 1 4 5 6 Next
There wasn't much reason to fly in WoD, since you were rewarded with raid quality gear just for sitting in your Garrison. At least in Legion, you have to leave your base to get the resources for the mission table.
Remember the disgusting promise of yearly expansions and we got a selfie camera as content??? ^_^ Fun days.
05/23/2018 03:32 PMPosted by Natoriân
Good post.

1. If people knew flying was going to be removed, and from my understanding most people did know, then why did they purchase the expansion?

2. Blizzard promised many things and delivered on very little. Throughout the history of commerce this tends to be a major factor on whether or not people remain true to a product.

3. Once Flying was reintroduces why then did players not
a. Have a massive return to the game and sends subscription threw the roof
b. Trickle back into the game and repopulate the servers.
Neither of those things happened.

I am glad to hear you like flying. Too bad more people were not like you and simply explained their position instead of telling everyone they have to like flying or gtfo.

My position, by the way, if you have not picked it out of my statements is I don't care if flying exists or not. I just hate wasting resources on something so trivial.


I just don't understand how people can overlook the fact that WoD simply lacked stuff to do, and that includes things to even fly towards when it got reinstated. True we can't poll every single person, but its just illogical for them to claim that flying was the reason when WoD had so many actual problems in regards to gameplay aide from how people got from point A to B.
05/24/2018 09:50 AMPosted by Searik

I just don't understand how people can overlook the fact that WoD simply lacked stuff to do, and that includes things to even fly towards when it got reinstated. True we can't poll every single person, but its just illogical for them to claim that flying was the reason when WoD had so many actual problems in regards to gameplay aide from how people got from point A to B.


It's safe to presume that anyone who claims that no flying was the reason why so many people left are projecting their own grievances onto that former player base.
Yes, I remember. I remember just leveling via the garrison.
05/24/2018 09:37 AMPosted by Teufelgott
05/23/2018 06:41 PMPosted by Ahleah
...

how dare you bring up this quote. Meritha said ion had nothing to do with the flying fiasco in WoD, it was all Chilton. I believed Meritha because she is so knowledgeable about these matters.
WoD was released on November 14, 2014. The quote is from an interview published by Polygon.com on May 22, 2015.
https://www.polygon.com/2015/5/22/8645293/world-of-warcraft-no-flying-tanaan-jungle-warlords-of-draenor-mmo-pc-blizzard

Legion was released on August 13, 2016.

Tom Chilton announced his departure as Game Director, and that Ion Hazzikostas would be taking his place on October 13, 2016.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20749706380

There... that should pretty definitive establish the timeline of who was in charge of what, and who should get the blame for what. Chilton was the game director, and therefore ultimately responsible for all design decisions, until well after Legion launched. Ion was 'just' the lead designer until then.


A change like that is a process that occurs over weeks or months with individual duties of a position being transferred at appropriate stages. A smooth transition occurs over months. A press release just tells you it's happening, and who to send information to after a set date. A timeline is a simplified visual of events that doesn't accurately depict the process as it really occurs.
05/24/2018 05:22 AMPosted by Mvura
05/23/2018 07:37 PMPosted by Lorsaire
It's fact.

And easily seen.


This isn't how we decide if something is a fact.

Concrete correlations don't imply causation.

Vague anecdotal correlations supported by people with a clear agenda definitely don't imply causation either.

Here's a simple reality. 5 million players don't agree on anything. You're making the assumption that hordes of people give a damn. They don't. Most people don't devour themselves constantly over video game angst.


So you are saying that voting is imaginary? Oops got ya there didn't I. Millions of people can and do agree on many issues every day. Wow is no exception.
Try again.
05/24/2018 09:40 AMPosted by Teufelgott
05/24/2018 06:08 AMPosted by Diro
Ion hates that flying is in the game. You can see it in his face and in his demeanor when he has to answer questions about it in the Q & A videos. Based on what I see in those vodcasts and his interviews duing the WoD no flying BS, I have zero faith in him not doing whatever he can to kill flying in the game.
Maybe, just maybe, after four years, he's just really tired of questions about flying


Maybe, just maybe, after four years, he should revert his flying changes and make the issue he created go away.
05/24/2018 09:43 AMPosted by Oldgoat
There wasn't much reason to fly in WoD, since you were rewarded with raid quality gear just for sitting in your Garrison. At least in Legion, you have to leave your base to get the resources for the mission table.
Lol raid finder gear. I do miss my Horde garrison though. Have a ton of followers go on missions while I'm out about in the world. I also like the environment of the Horde garrison, barbaric architecture and the snow flying around! I love snowy environments, I go back to my garrison sometimes just to get the snowy environment barbaric nomadic feel, I love it!
05/24/2018 10:17 AMPosted by Nagchompa
05/24/2018 09:43 AMPosted by Oldgoat
There wasn't much reason to fly in WoD, since you were rewarded with raid quality gear just for sitting in your Garrison. At least in Legion, you have to leave your base to get the resources for the mission table.
Lol raid finder gear. I do miss my Horde garrison though. Have a ton of followers go on missions while I'm out about in the world. I also like the environment of the Horde garrison, barbaric architecture and the snow flying around! I love snowy environments, I go back to my garrison sometimes just to get the snowy environment barbaric nomadic feel, I love it!


Yea I was actually a fan of the Horde garrison as well (layout and aesthetics), but I think we're in the minority as everyone always gushes over the alliance one. Personally I would have liked racial themed bases, as a goblin Garrison or a forsaken garrison in that snowy landscape would have looked amazing as well.
05/24/2018 10:06 AMPosted by Drbombay
05/24/2018 09:37 AMPosted by Teufelgott
WoD was released on November 14, 2014. The quote is from an interview published by Polygon.com on May 22, 2015.
https://www.polygon.com/2015/5/22/8645293/world-of-warcraft-no-flying-tanaan-jungle-warlords-of-draenor-mmo-pc-blizzard

Legion was released on August 13, 2016.

Tom Chilton announced his departure as Game Director, and that Ion Hazzikostas would be taking his place on October 13, 2016.
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20749706380

There... that should pretty definitive establish the timeline of who was in charge of what, and who should get the blame for what. Chilton was the game director, and therefore ultimately responsible for all design decisions, until well after Legion launched. Ion was 'just' the lead designer until then.


A change like that is a process that occurs over weeks or months with individual duties of a position being transferred at appropriate stages. A smooth transition occurs over months. A press release just tells you it's happening, and who to send information to after a set date. A timeline is a simplified visual of events that doesn't accurately depict the process as it really occurs.

May 22, 2015 - Ion announces the intention to not introduce flight to any current or future content.
October 13, 2016 - Tom Chilton announces his departure as Game Director and Ion's promotion from lead designer to game director.

Is it your assertion that Ion's transition into the position of game director took in excess of a year and a half?

I understand that a 'smooth transition occurs over months', but Great Scott, man, it only takes two and a half months to transition the POTUS. Can I assume that you are implying that the development of WoW is at least as complex as the entirety of the executive branch of the U.S. government?
05/24/2018 10:15 AMPosted by Drbombay
Maybe, just maybe, after four years, he should revert his flying changes and make the issue he created go away.
It's only an issue because players continue to make it an issue.
05/23/2018 03:32 PMPosted by Natoriân
1. If people knew flying was going to be removed, and from my understanding most people did know, then why did they purchase the expansion?

Because most people probably don't care and will play the game regardless of flight/no flight

05/23/2018 03:32 PMPosted by Natoriân
2. Blizzard promised many things and delivered on very little. Throughout the history of commerce this tends to be a major factor on whether or not people remain true to a product.

This is a Blizzard issue but Warlords always felt very rushed and unfinished

05/23/2018 03:32 PMPosted by Natoriân
3. Once Flying was reintroduces why then did players not
a. Have a massive return to the game and sends subscription threw the roof
b. Trickle back into the game and repopulate the servers.
Neither of those things happened.

Because players who want flight for gold at max level don't want to do pathfinder. Some of those players returned others haven't
05/24/2018 10:42 AMPosted by Teufelgott
05/24/2018 10:15 AMPosted by Drbombay
Maybe, just maybe, after four years, he should revert his flying changes and make the issue he created go away.
It's only an issue because players continue to make it an issue.


That makes no sense. It's equivalent to saying it's only an issue because players dislike it. Well, yeah.
05/24/2018 10:39 AMPosted by Teufelgott
05/24/2018 10:06 AMPosted by Drbombay
...

A change like that is a process that occurs over weeks or months with individual duties of a position being transferred at appropriate stages. A smooth transition occurs over months. A press release just tells you it's happening, and who to send information to after a set date. A timeline is a simplified visual of events that doesn't accurately depict the process as it really occurs.

May 22, 2015 - Ion announces the intention to not introduce flight to any current or future content.
October 13, 2016 - Tom Chilton announces his departure as Game Director and Ion's promotion from lead designer to game director.

Is it your assertion that Ion's transition into the position of game director took in excess of a year and a half?

I understand that a 'smooth transition occurs over months', but Great Scott, man, it only takes two and a half months to transition the POTUS. Can I assume that you are implying that the development of WoW is at least as complex as the entirety of the executive branch of the U.S. government?


I wouldn't assume anything. It implies nothing other than:
1) Transitions are complex and take time.
2) Timelines are a simple representation of complex processes.
Please excuse my ignorance as I've recently started playing WoW again in the past few months and have literally been binging through Draenor quests so that I can fly there. Blizzard is really taking that privilege away? When is this supposed to happen?
05/23/2018 09:21 PMPosted by Natoriân
The only place your explanation fails is in the fact that subscriptions fell off the cliff the first 3 months of the expansion due to lack of decent content. Flying or the lack there of wasn't even on the radar. It wasn't until a year later that there was any reversal of decisions, at that point everyone had already left.
There is no failure. People leaving Warlords because of a lack of content was a distinct and separate issue from people leaving warlords due to a lack of flight. Both things happened. Both issues contributed to some people leaving. For some people, lack of flight alone was sufficient. For some people lack of flight may have been the straw that broke the camels back on top of the lack of content.

Either way, Blizzard knows what happened. At the time, they were still asking people why they were unsubscribing when they unsubscribed. Companies have dedicated data analytics and business intelligence teams that parse this kind of information to help executive teams make decisions, and Blizzard is no exception.

So again, Blizzard deciding to put flight back, and changing their minds after making the announcement it would be gone forever as rapidly as they did tells you everything you need to know. It was a major issue for them, and it was going to cost them a lot of money. This happens sometimes in business, a company will make a decision based on what they think is an educated guess on customer/client reaction, and then things don't wind up going the way they expect. The players reaction to the issue clearly caught them off guard in terms of scope and scale.

But it wasn't people on the forums here complaining about it that made them change their minds. They do look at and take player feedback into account, but any real look at they way they operate, major decisions frequently get made and then they stick to them, even when many players present a cogent rational debate on why they shouldn't do something.

In the end, the only thing that gets them to make a major reversal like this, is money. Blizzard was set to lose too much profit over the flight decision. It's the only thing that made them change back and put it back into the game.

05/24/2018 05:22 AMPosted by Mvura
This isn't how we decide if something is a fact.

Concrete correlations don't imply causation.

Vague anecdotal correlations supported by people with a clear agenda definitely don't imply causation either.

Here's a simple reality. 5 million players don't agree on anything. You're making the assumption that hordes of people give a damn. They don't. Most people don't devour themselves constantly over video game angst.
There is nothing vague about it. Businesses operate to maximize their long term profits. When they make decisions those decisions are executed in accordance with that goal. Decisions made that act counter to that goal in error, are then corrected and reversed.

So outline the facts:

1) Blizzard did not put flight into Warlords to start in November 2014, but did announce they may put it in later, before and during the beginning of the xpack.

2) Blizzard in roughly end of May 2015 announced via an interview with Ion Hazzikostas that they would not be putting flight back into the game for Warlords, and planned to not introduce flight in later expansions going forward, though they might occasionally in certain zones.

3) Blizzard in the beginning of June 2015, roughly 3 weeks later, announced that they would be putting flight back afterall, that it would be put in with an achievement to unlock it that they would be putting that achievement in starting with the next patch even though they needed some time to get the world ready in Warlords for flight to return and that could take a bit more time (which wound up being in September 2015).

These decisions were major. They weren't something done willy nilly. They certainly were not something done with no look into what it would do to the company bottom line.

So, then you tell me...

If the decision to remove flight which was going to save them money in creating the game was walked back a scant 3 weeks after their decision to announce it, a decision that meant they weren't just going to get the cost savings from offering less game through lack of flight, but also were going to have to spend additional money invested through developer hours to get the Warlords content ready to have flying in it over the course of about 4 months...

what caused them to make that decision?

What else, except for them understanding the decision was going to cost them a lot more lost future profits than they expected could drive them to reverse course, and reverse course that rapidly?
05/24/2018 11:14 AMPosted by Lorsaire
05/23/2018 09:21 PMPosted by Natoriân
The only place your explanation fails is in the fact that subscriptions fell off the cliff the first 3 months of the expansion due to lack of decent content. Flying or the lack there of wasn't even on the radar. It wasn't until a year later that there was any reversal of decisions, at that point everyone had already left.
There is no failure. People leaving Warlords because of a lack of content was a distinct and separate issue from people leaving warlords due to a lack of flight. Both things happened. Both issues contributed to some people leaving. For some people, lack of flight alone was sufficient. For some people lack of flight may have been the straw that broke the camels back on top of the lack of content.

Either way, Blizzard knows what happened. At the time, they were still asking people why they were unsubscribing when they unsubscribed. Companies have dedicated data analytics and business intelligence teams that parse this kind of information to help executive teams make decisions, and Blizzard is no exception.

So again, Blizzard deciding to put flight back, and changing their minds after making the announcement it would be gone forever as rapidly as they did tells you everything you need to know. It was a major issue for them, and it was going to cost them a lot of money. This happens sometimes in business, a company will make a decision based on what they think is an educated guess on customer/client reaction, and then things don't wind up going the way they expect. The players reaction to the issue clearly caught them off guard in terms of scope and scale.

But it wasn't people on the forums here complaining about it that made them change their minds. They do look at and take player feedback into account, but any real look at they way they operate, major decisions frequently get made and then they stick to them, even when many players present a cogent rational debate on why they shouldn't do something.

In the end, the only thing that gets them to make a major reversal like this, is money. Blizzard was set to lose too much profit over the flight decision. It's the only thing that made them change back and put it back into the game.

05/24/2018 05:22 AMPosted by Mvura
This isn't how we decide if something is a fact.

Concrete correlations don't imply causation.

Vague anecdotal correlations supported by people with a clear agenda definitely don't imply causation either.

Here's a simple reality. 5 million players don't agree on anything. You're making the assumption that hordes of people give a damn. They don't. Most people don't devour themselves constantly over video game angst.
There is nothing vague about it. Businesses operate to maximize their long term profits. When they make decisions those decisions are executed in accordance with that goal. Decisions made that act counter to that goal in error, are then corrected and reversed.

So outline the facts:

1) Blizzard did not put flight into Warlords to start in November 2014, but did announce they may put it in later before and during the beginning of the xpack.

2) Blizzard in roughly end of May 2015 announced via an interview with Ion Hazzikostas that they would not be putting flight back into the game for Warlords, and planned to not introduce flight in later expansions going forward, though they might occasionally in certain zones.

3) Blizzard in the beginning of June 2015, roughly 3 weeks later, announced that they would be putting flight back afterall, that it would be put in with an achievement to unlock it that they would be putting that achievement in starting with the next patch even though they needed some time to get the world ready in Warlords for flight to return and that could take a bit more time (which wound up being in September 2015).

These decisions were major. They weren't something done willy nilly. They certainly were not something done with no look into what it would do to the company bottom line.

So, then you tell me...

If the decision to remove flight which was going to save them money in creating the game was walked back a scant 3 weeks after their decision to announce it, a decision that meant they weren't just going to get the cost savings from offering less game through lack of flight, but also were going to have to spend additional money invested through developer hours to get the Warlords content ready to have flying in it over the course of about 4 months...

what caused them to make that decision?

What else, except for them understanding the decision was going to cost them a lot more lost future profits than they expected could drive them to reverse course, and reverse course that rapidly?


I agree 100%. Brilliant explanation. Now can you please help me understand how the "lawyer" who caused all this loss and continues to cause much anger, still works for Blizzard?
In my opinion, Pathfinder is a poor compromise because of the rep grind. I think there should be more options to accomplish it.
05/23/2018 12:08 PMPosted by Diro
If you two don't realize that there were shenanigans going on you obviously didn't learn your lesson from the past today.

Just because you are a "conspiracy theorist" doesn't make what you say true. Dual Faction requirements were NEVER a thing. It was always a bug.

Just stop already.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum