Vengeance DH Talent Feedback and Suggestions

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06/19/2018 01:36 PMPosted by Felberry
06/19/2018 11:32 AMPosted by Felgong


This tank is good to go? No. It will do good DPS and tanking, and survive well, but the talent options are horrible. Plenty of good suggestions, I'll say it again, here, if anyone cares to take a look at. I don't really think it's a question of tuning, it's that the talents that compete with the usual ones are simply put mechanically


I think you have to expect that we will lose DPS in the tuning, which means we will lose self heal from leech. I think it important to allow Blizz to reduce our aoe dps, without reminding them about it impacting our survivability.


There are some who disagree. One player tested all tanks in LFR (scaled up in ilvl and level) and he percepted that VDH didn't change much while, for example, BDK were a lot more fluid and had competitive DPS. Apparently our scaling isn't top notch, so if that's the case, it makes sense we have a better head start.
06/19/2018 03:20 PMPosted by Felgong


There are some who disagree. One player tested all tanks in LFR (scaled up in ilvl and level) and he percepted that VDH didn't change much while, for example, BDK were a lot more fluid and had competitive DPS. Apparently our scaling isn't top notch, so if that's the case, it makes sense we have a better head start.


This to a worse problem, will VDH get worse as the expansion progresses? Scaling is an issue thats harder to test in Beta but is critical as we move from patch to patch
06/20/2018 06:33 AMPosted by Felberry
06/19/2018 03:20 PMPosted by Felgong


There are some who disagree. One player tested all tanks in LFR (scaled up in ilvl and level) and he percepted that VDH didn't change much while, for example, BDK were a lot more fluid and had competitive DPS. Apparently our scaling isn't top notch, so if that's the case, it makes sense we have a better head start.


This to a worse problem, will VDH get worse as the expansion progresses? Scaling is an issue thats harder to test in Beta but is critical as we move from patch to patch


Scaling definitely looks to be a problem with VDH compared to other tanks. Just hope this is addressed in 8.1, and some of the talent tuning, buffs to meta, adding back darkness, and spirit bomb being baseline could be fixed before launch. Ideally.
Keep the feedback coming guys. We have a lot of good suggestions in this thread and even if some of the changes won’t happen until 8.1 it’s still important for the issues to be recognized.
Good suggestions. Vengeance feels strong but kind of shallow. Rocking for dungeons, but more questionable for raids. Especially as progression and gear scaling happens.
Seems like Veng would have more potential if the talents were balanced better. Some (charred warglaives, new razor spikes, etc) are not even close to competitive.

Balancing talents would not make the class any stronger per se, just more flexible and versatile for different situations. Which I hope we can all agree improves the depth and fun factor of the class/spec.
Now that:
- we were nerfed
- at least 3 other tanks are shining in M+ (monks, DK, Pally)
-Sco pointed the obvious fact that our window outside AM is the worst of all tanks and considered us the worst tank - again - for the next raid tier

I’d like to suggest buffing Feed the Demon, because we only started to have our place in tanking with the legendary pants and T21 greatly increasing the uptime of Legion’s Meta
07/15/2018 08:55 AMPosted by Felgong
Now that:
- we were nerfed
- at least 3 other tanks are shining in M+ (monks, DK, Pally)
-Sco pointed the obvious fact that our window outside AM is the worst of all tanks and considered us the worst tank - again - for the next raid tier

I’d like to suggest buffing Feed the Demon, because we only started to have our place in tanking with the legendary pants and T21 greatly increasing the uptime of Legion’s Meta


I think they should either bring DS back to 3 charges or at least bring the c/d back down to 15 secs. And of course make meta a %DR instead of being weaker then DS.
07/15/2018 02:03 PMPosted by Calistraza
07/15/2018 08:55 AMPosted by Felgong
Now that:
- we were nerfed
- at least 3 other tanks are shining in M+ (monks, DK, Pally)
-Sco pointed the obvious fact that our window outside AM is the worst of all tanks and considered us the worst tank - again - for the next raid tier

I’d like to suggest buffing Feed the Demon, because we only started to have our place in tanking with the legendary pants and T21 greatly increasing the uptime of Legion’s Meta


I think they should either bring DS back to 3 charges or at least bring the c/d back down to 15 secs. And of course make meta a %DR instead of being weaker then DS.


Agreed. I did a 14 maw this morning and got rocked every time DS would fall off. Pre-prepatch I could do 20s with less problems and stress.

My concern is not only does Vengeance feel significantly weaker now, it also feels less fun to play.

-Meta needs buffing
-DS needs 3 charged or we need another form of AM
-Need an instant on-demand soul fragments. Bring soul carver back?
-spirit bomb should be made baseline
-we could stand to have some actual raid utility besides chaos brand. Bring darkness back!!!
I just updated my addons, so i got a chance run m+ today... did a +18 kara as dh tank.... this run made me feel bad. DH tank now= Slow, dull, squishy...
07/18/2018 09:17 PMPosted by Rosewar
I just updated my addons, so i got a chance run m+ today... did a +18 kara as dh tank.... this run made me feel bad. DH tank now= Slow, dull, squishy...


All tanks are like that and its even more amplifyed for Self-healing tanks. The fact taht they reduced self-healing makes VDH, BDK and Pally feels boring now. And our mitigation wasn't greatly improved. But we're still the funniest tank to play by far due to the high movement, which is addictive.
I'm guessing they will just buff our passive armor, it is the lazy solution. Allot of the suggestions in this thread are pretty overpowering when you think about how they will interact with the rest of our spec.
Been playing DH as tank on Beta. I started tanking on my DH late in legion, and found it easy to use. I started out being impressed with how it looked on Beta. Was liking that you could still pull large groups and survive it rather well until....

Now I went by the build that was suggested on Icy Veins and it's linked in the DH discord. When set up using those talents they suggest you are left with fracture as a main attack. There wasn't any issue to pulling more than one mob, as you could survive. Then they did a change. Fracture has been given a 4.2 second recharge. This has seriously damaged the capabilities of tanking with a DH now. I did normal dungeon, before and after this change and in a normal dungeon now the whole party gets wasted. The mobs get pulled in groups no matter what you try to do and now you can't hold aggro on them all nor survive in any way. The healer has to heal the DH tank way more than they used to taking away from the rest of the group. Veng is no longer a viable tanking spec. And all because of this 4.2 recharge of fracture, a main attack. We need a new main attack that doesn't take so long to recharge. Soul cleave is a help but you aren't always able to use that, and in heavy mob situations you are at an extreme disadvantage. I have gone from being able to tank, to either dying or running and leaving team to die so I can stay alive.
07/19/2018 07:55 PMPosted by Necoalida
Been playing DH as tank on Beta. I started tanking on my DH late in legion, and found it easy to use. I started out being impressed with how it looked on Beta. Was liking that you could still pull large groups and survive it rather well until....

Now I went by the build that was suggested on Icy Veins and it's linked in the DH discord. When set up using those talents they suggest you are left with fracture as a main attack. There wasn't any issue to pulling more than one mob, as you could survive. Then they did a change. Fracture has been given a 4.2 second recharge. This has seriously damaged the capabilities of tanking with a DH now. I did normal dungeon, before and after this change and in a normal dungeon now the whole party gets wasted. The mobs get pulled in groups no matter what you try to do and now you can't hold aggro on them all nor survive in any way. The healer has to heal the DH tank way more than they used to taking away from the rest of the group. Veng is no longer a viable tanking spec. And all because of this 4.2 recharge of fracture, a main attack. We need a new main attack that doesn't take so long to recharge. Soul cleave is a help but you aren't always able to use that, and in heavy mob situations you are at an extreme disadvantage. I have gone from being able to tank, to either dying or running and leaving team to die so I can stay alive.


Unless something has changed, the only issue you're going to have tanking dungeons with a VDH, considering the current gear level, is if you're a fresh 120, and that applies to every single character.
There are empty GCDs but you can fill it with Glaive and even Taunt, they''re part of the rotation now. Don't forget your 4 sigils and purge too.
Yes, in the current build Method Sco rated DH as the worst raid tank out of all 6 tanks. Vid here:

https://youtu.be/JiiUkFdzeSg

Here is another Video From Excidas, a mythic raider and vengeance player for (I think) most all of Legion. His comments are spot on.

https://youtu.be/Y2Ebbb8uIU8

Note his review of our talent choices. Based of his video, which I agree with:

2 of 7 rows have 2 viable choices.
1 of 7 rows have 3 viable choices.
4 of 7 rows have only 1 viable pick, which is not a choice.

In the Bliz video Ion mentioned that they are tuning numbers and would be looking at talents. I presume this is for BFA launch and 8.1. Hope if anyone on the dev team is reading this, they can look at our talents to give us more viable choices for Vengeance.

As a big picture critique of the DH, what we suffer from most that negatively impacts Fun Factor, to me at least, is lack of choices.

-We have only 2 specs as a DH.

-Each faction only has one race choice as a DH.

-Very limited viable talent options. By most experienced VDH feedback, 4 of our 7 talent rows only have 1 viable choice.

-We have very few abilities in our spell book. 16 for Havoc, 17 for Vengeance. I am not suggesting to add abilities for the sake of adding abilities. The feedback here is that the VDH rotation is overly simple and boring. As a suggestion, some talents could be made baseline, thus correcting 2 issues at once.

Hope this is useful feedback that Bliz can consider.
I have always had a huge respect for Excidas, he is a very fine person and quite humble that literally fought to be a MT, saw his guild torn apart and found another one.
And I completely agree with him. Also, the tank has the depth of a puddle. Easy to learn and easy to master. Not good design
Would feel so much better if they could balance our talent rows and bake a few more skills into our toolkit, such as spirit bomb and darkness.
07/19/2018 05:38 AMPosted by Bull
I'm guessing they will just buff our passive armor, it is the lazy solution. Allot of the suggestions in this thread are pretty overpowering when you think about how they will interact with the rest of our spec.


Which was the exact same band aid in Legion and didn't help us.

It took till ToS to even get a defensive leggo released worth using on a tank class for raiding.

Probably expect another expansion of being !@#$ in raids for most of it.
Band aids are generally what you get without an overhaul, and I do not think we are high on the list when it comes to overhauls. I do not think we will really see much except a buff to passive defense, and maybe a buff to gluttony and fel devastation.

They do not want to have to rebalance the spec due to major changes, so they will bump underperforming talents and push our passives higher.
Biggest issue with Veng right now is that we're suffering from the same problem we did in Legion. We are great for M+ but weak in raids. Our self healing was buffed, but our mitigation was severely nerfed to compensate making use a poor man's DK in raids.

Our Meta is probably the weakest 3min CD defensive of all the tanks. Our DS literally gives us more mitigation than that 3 min CD ability. It should get a Shield Wall treatment and reduce all damage by X% instead of buffing our armor which is a niche DS already fills. This will also indirectly buff our Gluttony talent which is easily the worst choice in that row of talents at the moment.

DS could also use a CD reduction even if it has its mitigation nerfed a bit to compensate.

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