Class Design: It Needs Improvement

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
Class design has lost a lot of its engaging game play and depth. I legitimately do not understand what the devs that have created the classes into what we have today were thinking. Simplicity can be good but this has just gone way too far.

I'll be a bit honest here and say that I actually enjoyed some the pruning from MoP into WoD in most cases if not all of them. I was okay with more abilities becoming passive. I was cool with a little bit less abilities to press, but even for me there's a fine line.

Legion completely ruined all desire that I have had for any class or spec.

For one, because of the pruning and "adding" those abilities back into talents or into freaking legendaries. It feels incredibly horrible having to try to farm RNG to get a Legendary that has an ability or a function that used to be baseline.

For two, the depth that we had within our dps/tanking/healing rotations has been removed. Please don't argue with me on this one, I've played all classes and all specs for years and years. Anyway...

Think of Efflorescence when we used to be able to blow it up. That was a skilled interaction. Where is it? Gone. Think of the Mage Bomb Talent tier. This mostly interacted with Fire and Frost but there was an interaction with it. Where did it go? It no longer exists. Flurry does have a chance to proc while using Frostbolt or Ebonbolt but that's barely an interaction because it plays off of the main spell you're casting. It's not nearly as exciting as it was when we had the Mage Bomb Talent tree.

If there is a dev that reads this and is trying to form up some kind of conclusion of where I'm coming from, go look at all specs from MoP and this is the kind of class design that should be in the game.

The engagement and interaction of class design was so beautiful, I literally dream of the times where I used to have fun while going through any dps rotation on any class and any spec. I'm not exaggerating here. Ask my guildies (who have now quit because of class design) how many classes I would bring to alt raids and arenas that we used to run together and ask them how good I was at everything that I picked up. I'm a natural. I pick things up really easily and really well in WoW. Anyhoo. Class design was best during MoP. I'd even take WoD over Legion or BfA.

There are a number of huge disconnect issues for players with Legion's class design and as well as BfA's.

For one, it was the pruning of abilities and "adding" them back up as either talents or legendaries or passives on artifact weapons. Taking an iconic ability from a player and re-gifting it in a less desirable form instantly creates disconnect.

Having Single Target Talents against AoE Talents on the Talent tree. Classes should have all of their abilities and everything fleshed out before talents. Having to choose between a single target or an aoe ability as a Talent instantly makes me shake my head. I'd rather have both of those "Talents" as baseline abilities and be able to use them in the different scenarios myself instead of having to choose before I go out into the world and do my daily bidding.

Less abilities creates a situation where the skill cap gets lowered immensely. Think of past class design being like Salsa Dancing and BfA's class design being like the Chicken Dance. This is how I see it. I understand that some people disagree but I will just say that numbers never lie. If you consider the attacks per minute from previous expansions compared to now and the various different abilities that we used to use with any given rotation is immensely higher than what we have with Legion or BfA. Thus reducing the skill cap.

Classes must be finished before talents/honor talents/azerite armor/heart of Azeroth. If classes are not finished before these then this creates a huge disconnect as well. Just knowingly having less abilities before getting the armor pieces creates a situation where you feel it to be mandatory to increase these things in power. The main problem is that it makes you feel weak until you get the things that make your character more powerful. We shouldn't feel weak at 110 after just killing a freaking Titan. We shouldn't feel weak being at current max level and having done all the things that we have done.

I've never felt so disconnected from Class design the entire time I've been playing WoW. I've been doin this for 10 years and the only time I've ever felt this disconnect is with Legion and BfA. There is not any other time I've felt like complaining about class design until Legion. This is a major problem and if the Blizzard devs do not know this or realize this then it really will be time for me to find another game until things get better. And I will tell you this... I do not want to find a different game but I will if things don't change from how they are now!
This is exactly how I feel.
I will say that I'm sorry for sounding so negative in this but it's just how I feel. I don't have anything else to give feedback on cause BfA looks to be pretty cool, but I personally just don't feel like I'll have fun because I won't enjoy the classes that I play.
:(
When other games innovate we get prune and rehash of old spells. Class homogenisation at an all time high (name dps classes that revolve around 4/8s damage window.. with their 4 button rotations).

Didn't think it was going to happen but I have no desire play my toons anymore. They're boring and unfun to play. At this point not sure if I'm going to comeback for BfA (and I already bought it). Don't see any major class design happening between now and launch.

Bliz.. with other games out there competing for player time.. you need to do better than to prune/shuffle same old class design. Content is always good but current class design direction ruins that experience.
05/23/2018 07:26 PMPosted by Chopskii

Bliz.. with other games out there competing for player time.. you need to do better than to prune/shuffle same old class design. Content is always good but current class design direction ruins that experience.


See this is exactly what I would tell to an important Dev for WoW. This is exactly it. I really don't want to try to sound negative on the Beta forums but this is just my honesty...

I've been looking around for other games. I'm getting close but the ONE thing that will make me become addicted to this game once again is if class design was as good and engaging as it was prior to Legion. This is the game's one downfall right now and if it gets better then I wouldn't even be thinking of playing another game whatsoever.
I would like an excuse to undelete some of my characters to play but when I think about it, I know I won't have a lot of fun on them, and I'm the kind of player that plays the whole expansion even up to the last day of one right before a new expansion launches. Now I only keep the toons that I have for gold farming and that's literally it.
The worst decision Mike Morhaime ever made was promoting Ion Hazzikostas to game director.

It reminds me of a story about General Patton being denied a promotion to the forward command and Eisenhower was quoted as saying something along the lines of "He was the best battlefield commander the world had ever known but if promoted he would be the worst commander we've ever seen".

Ion's vision isn't whatade this game great, essentially what we have now is Warcraft 2.0 which is going in a VERY different direction than the days of Rob Pardo, Jeff Kaplan, Tom Chilton.

I always get this feeling that Ion believes he is simply "managing the decline" of WoW when he should be focusing on bringing the game back to its former glory...
05/23/2018 07:45 PMPosted by Beitreana

I always get this feeling that Ion believes he is simply "managing the decline" of WoW when he should be focusing on bringing the game back to its former glory...


This is interesting. I will say that I've had similar thoughts but that's only when I see the Q&A's and watch Ion answer a question really wrong and just not anywhere near how I would hope for him to respond, much like when he responds to pruning. NO Ion, adding abilities every expansion isn't feasible but how come so many abilities have been pruned away with nothing to really replace them? Sorry but his response to that question is totally irrelevant.

There is still glory to be had in WoW, some people just don't realize it. If Class Design was much better, there's a start. There are a lot of things in BfA that show some pretty good promise, not gonna lie. If they're executed correctly to keep player's engagement and excitement then there will be much less to complain about.
One more example of class design engagement. Let's compare Combustion in Legion/BfA compared to WoD/MoP.

Currently Combustion just increases your damage done by 100% for x amount of seconds. Boooringg....

Combustion in WoD/MoP actually had player interaction and choice attached to it. If you didn't know how to explode a good combustion, this separated the good players from the bad players. Oh man I can't even count how many times I'd get an amazing combustion off and my chat would be littered with other players asking me how I was able to get my Combustion damage so high. See Blizz?

Not only does this give player interaction and depth, it makes other players want to learn and how to become better as well. There's glory in playing a class right. There's zero glory in pressing the buttons that you have just because they're there to press.
05/23/2018 07:56 PMPosted by Faraya

Currently Combustion just increases your damage done by 100% for x amount of seconds.


Combustion increases crit chance by 100% and half of your crit goes to mastery. But yeah the old combustion was way more in depth and using it at the wrong time was a big dps loss.

I read a post over on reddit, dont remember who it was by, but they made a list of spells that destruction has lost since MoP and it was something like 15 spells and nothing has been giving in return.

Was curious what Windwalker has lost since MoP and found that 7 spells got reworked (3 are pvp talents), 11 spells were removed, and 5 talents (Rip Chi Explosion) were removed. Windwalker has gain 4 things since then though.
05/23/2018 07:06 PMPosted by Faraya
For two, the depth that we had within our dps/tanking/healing rotations has been removed. Please don't argue with me on this one, I've played all classes and all specs for years and years. Anyway...

I'm not saying you're wrong with your post, there's clearly a lot of people that agree with you...but throwing the above paragraph in is pretty much asking the devs to not care. "This is fact, do not argue with me, I know what I'm talking about." Very bad feedback.
05/23/2018 07:26 PMPosted by Chopskii
Bliz.. with other games out there competing for player time.. you need to do better than to prune/shuffle same old class design. Content is always good but current class design direction ruins that experience.
Yep. Who pays a monthly fee for a game that plays like crap? I definitely won't.
05/23/2018 09:46 PMPosted by Adamology
05/23/2018 07:06 PMPosted by Faraya
For two, the depth that we had within our dps/tanking/healing rotations has been removed. Please don't argue with me on this one, I've played all classes and all specs for years and years. Anyway...

I'm not saying you're wrong with your post, there's clearly a lot of people that agree with you...but throwing the above paragraph in is pretty much asking the devs to not care. "This is fact, do not argue with me, I know what I'm talking about." Very bad feedback.


Actually I was referring to other players. Not the devs, tbh.
Classes as they stand are less than what is currently in Live. That should not happen in an expansion.

Maybe tweaks, maybe a rework, maybe staying the course. But to actually diminish during a team that you should be expecting new and exciting things is just mind boggling.

Supposedly the new armor is supposed to supplement this? but its boring. I have seen nothing from it that says this is interesting, I can't wait for this!. It looks like more of a hassle than anything else.

Classes need so much work and we only have a few months to go.
I completely agree with what Faraya said.

I have over 600 days played on the same mage and I've always been excited for a new expansion, especially when I get a beta invite.
This is the first time I've gotten beta access and no motivation to play. I always find something to get me into an expansion, this time I cant get the motivation. It makes me sad.
Feeling the same way mm Hunter is a boring slow shell of its former fast paced exciting game play :/
Classes as they stand are less than what is currently in Live. That should not happen in an expansion.

Classes need so much work and we only have a few months to go.


This precisely. I've been a MM since vanilla. I've looked forward to new abilities and perks ever since patch 1.7 and throughout TBC and beyond. Then pruning began and it just feels less and less rewarding and each xpack I find myself instead of asking, "What new stuff am I going to get?" I ask, "What abilities am I going to LOSE this time?"

That should not happen. Ever!

I know its not going to change at this point except for some tweaks(hopefully). But please realize your player base does not enjoy losing instead of gaining abilities when an xpack launches...
05/23/2018 11:19 PMPosted by Faraya
05/23/2018 09:46 PMPosted by Adamology
...
I'm not saying you're wrong with your post, there's clearly a lot of people that agree with you...but throwing the above paragraph in is pretty much asking the devs to not care. "This is fact, do not argue with me, I know what I'm talking about." Very bad feedback.


Actually I was referring to other players. Not the devs, tbh.

It doesn't matter who you were referring to, you're saying no one can disagree with you. That's extremely childish and completely removes the ability to discuss anything you've said.
I liked Legion classes... With artifacts. Without there is very little substance.

I really dislike what I've seen of BFA classes. They just don't have the synergy and flow in their kits anymore.
05/24/2018 06:09 AMPosted by Adamology
05/23/2018 11:19 PMPosted by Faraya
...

Actually I was referring to other players. Not the devs, tbh.

It doesn't matter who you were referring to, you're saying no one can disagree with you. That's extremely childish and completely removes the ability to discuss anything you've said.


This is a good point. You should leave it open to discussion. I think a lot of people agree with you but the way you compose yourself when leaving feedback does matter.

But more to the topic here...

I agree that class design feels it is lacking. I can see what they are trying to do by making each spec feel unique and have something special to offer but I think that’s a poor excuse for pruning and reducing the potential for our characters to grow. In BfA it feels like we have less than we do in previous expansions, even Legion, and honestly while it is great that we are getting new features and zones, a lot of people probably play the game to see their characters progress and learn new things.

Pruning has been done for several expansions now. I find myself wondering if we are ever really going to grow again or see things like additional talent rows.

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