Windwalker Monk Feedback

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
Its been a while since I've posted some feedback, but Windwalker hasn't really seen many changes the past few weeks, and its starting to get a little concerning. So I'll post some of the issues with Windwalker as I see it, and try to provide some alternatives or solutions. Some of these may be intentional, oversight, bugs, or something else, but it would be nice to get some insight into what is which.

I want to start by saying that overall I think the spec is in a really good place. However, there are still some concerns that I, and others, have. I understand that so much can come across as overkill and pretentious, but its well documented that this is how I do things.

Blackout Kick's damage is too high
Right now, Blackout Kick (BoK) does too much damage relative to the other damaging abilities.

The main reason that this is a problem is the hidden Windwalker Aura:
http://bfa.wowhead.com/spell=137025/windwalker-monk – Modifies nearly all abilities by -20% (Effect #1); plus extra modifiers to specific abilities relevant to these discussions; +26% to Rising Sun Kick, Blackout Kick, Tiger Palm (Effect #5); +140% to Spinning Crane Kick (Effect #8); and +50% to Blackout Kick (Effect #9).

For Reference:
  • Tiger Palm – 27% base AP * +26% (Effect #5) * -20% (Effect #1)= 27.2% AP
  • Blackout Kick – 77% base AP * +50% (Effect #9) * +26% (Effect #5) * -20% (Effect #1) = 116.4% AP
  • Rising Sun Kick – 115% base AP * +26% (Effect #5) * +70% (Rising Sun Kick) * -20% (Effect 1) = 197% AP
  • Whirling Dragon Punch – 248.7% base AP per target, no additional modifiers
  • Fists of Fury – 5 hits of 94.185% base AP * -20% (Effect #1)= 376.74% base AP
  • Spinning Crane Kick – 40% base AP * +140% (Effect #8) * -20% (Effect #1)= 76.8% AP per target


This has some unfortunate consequences:

1) Because BoK is doing more damage per Chi than Rising Sun Kick (RSK), and our normal priority is dictated by damage per Chi, we do not want to use RSK during our normal priority, except to enable the use of Whirling Dragon Punch (WDP). This takes what is currently our hardest hitting ability and turns it into a secondary thought, only used to enable WDP or dump excess Chi. It also takes the cooldown reduction mechanic of BoK and cuts its usefulness in half since we only care about Fists of Fury (FoF).

2) Because the gap between BoK and SCK is so great, in single target, when using the talent Serenity, its best for Windwalkers to ignore our Mastery bonus, and spam BoK between RSK and FoF in order to take advantage of BoK's cooldown reduction mechanic. Although its an easy rotation to do inside of Serenity, ignoring the Mastery that's been drilled into us for all of Legion doesn't feel very natural.

3) The problem of dropping Mastery in favor of spamming BoK to maximize the cooldown reduction may extend outside of Serenity. Although this isn't a likely situation, we're getting close to it being a real possiblity. Because the only Chi we HAVE to spend is into FoF and a RSK every 24 seconds, that leaves all the rest for spamming BoK to get FoF back up faster. Its hard to use all the Chi and maintain Mastery on all the BoK, so its possible that we may look to ignore Mastery at times.

Solution: Take away the 50% damage bonus to BoK from the Windwalker Aura's Effect #9. Then balance those abilities accordingly. With that bonus taken away, BoK will take its place back under the abilities with a cooldown, which has been its historical priority location.
BoK's cooldown reduction doesn't affect WDP
Although this isn't a huge pressing issue, it is one that is an annoyance at best. For all of Legion the cooldowns of WDP and FoF were the same, now, in Battle for Azeroth, FoF has its cooldown reduced by BoK, and WDP doesn't. This leads to a slightly wonky experience that just feels very different from live where the two abilities work hand-in-hand.

Solution: Make BoK reduce the CD of WDP as well.

Dual Wielding vs 2H

** Looks like this is “fixed” as FoF is back to requiring 1H weapons **

This was a debate for years, and not just for Windwalkers. However, with Legion, we got a requirement for 1H weapons in order to use Fists of Fury, an ability that we weren't going to go without. Now that requirement seems to have been removed. It seems odd to put that requirement in place when everyone uses the artifact weapons, which are 1H, so the requirement is moot at max level, then remove the requirement when there comes a point that the requirement would actually have an effect at max level.

From a personal perspective, as someone who does a lot of theorycrafting, guide writing, and helping, I am not excited to figure out, write about, and constantly answer the question of which item is best between two 1H and a 2H weapon. I understand that people are excited about this possibility from a transmog perspective, but outside of that visual perspective, this seems to be just complication for the sake of complication.

Solution: Pick one, I prefer 1H so I can transmog invisible weapons or Brass Knuckles to make my fists glow, very Monk-esque.
All the AOE and Spinning Crane Kick changes
So this is one of the few times that I will address DPS as a real concern of mine. I understand that tuning hasn't really happened, but this is more about the theory behind it.

1) Change to Fist of Fury's AOE damage method
So FoF used to split damage to all secondary targets on a "N-1" formula. This meant that it would get close to, but never reach dealing 200% of its single target damage. In Legion, this restriction was removed so that it dealt 100% damage to all targets that it hit; 10 targets = 1000% damage.

Now its been changed to deal 50% reduced damage to secondary targets. I understand that this is an appropriate change based on the direction that AOE is going for everyone. However, it does lead us to have three abilities with three different AOE interactions. FoF is a cone and does 50% damage to secondary targets, WDP is a circle around us and does 100% damage to all targets, SCK is a circle around us and does 100% damage to all targets, plus gets 10% more damage per target tagged.

2) Cyclone Strike's nerf
The stacking debuff that increases SCK's damage, Cyclone Strikes went from 50% to 40% in Legion and now to 10% in BfA. This is more than understandable. Its a mechanic that can get out of hand very quickly. Its something that was mentioned back in Legion beta as a potential point of problem.

3) Cyclone Strike's Cap
Currently on the Beta, there is a cap of 5 stacks of Cyclone Strikes. Right now on Live, there is no cap other than the 15 second duration of the debuff, so you can max out at 45 stacks. Although no one ever gets to 45, there have been situations where 20 is possible and 10-15 is regularly possible. To go from a maximum of 10-15 with top notch play, to a very achievable 5 feels like it negates the mechanic all together.

If you can only get 5 stacks, and each stack only gives 10%, is the extra 50% damage to SCK worth the time and additional work it may take to get those stacks? I'm not sure.

Because of the cap, it also means that we will always prioritize FoF and WDP over SCK. This is fine, but it leads to a furthering of the comment immediately above; if you're going to gain 50% damage to an ability that won't be your primary damage ability, is it worth the effort?

4) All together now
With all of these changes together, there is a real concern for Windwalker's ability to do AOE damage. This has long been our strength, and I fear that we've lost so much capability that we'll be behind. I know this is a matter of tuning, but with so many changes to lessen Windwalker's AOE, I fear it is overkill.

5) SCK stacks on Single Target
This isn't directly an AOE concern, but currently on Beta, you can generate all 5 stacks of Cyclone Strikes on a single target. This further negates the point of Cyclone Strikes, both mechanically and thematically. Why have the stacks at all if they can be generated in single target as well. It seems like it has moved from a skill that rewards skill, to a simple ramp-up mechanic.

Solution: Uncap Cyclone Strikes, raise the cap, or increase the benefit gained from each stack. Make it so that you can't gain more than one stack per target. FoF's damage can stay the way it is, at 50% reduced to secondary targets.
Talent Weirdness
This is something that seems to be going through a roller coaster of not being a problem, then being a problem. There have been many small changes to Windwalker's talents, but enough that its a little confusing.

Tier 1 (level 15)
Right now Chi Burst providing one chi per target hit is too strong. Even though it does less damage directly than Chi Wave and Eye of the Tiger, the extra Chi, even in single target, makes them massively imbalanced. By my calculations, Chi Wave has a maximum of 3.7% AP per second, whereas Chi Burst is at 4.75% AP per second. Although this is only a difference of 1%, it doesn't feel right that Chi Burst is best in all situations.

A possible solution would be to make it so that Chi Burst needs to hit two targets to generate Chi, either by saying "If it hits more than 1 target, generate 1 chi per target hit" or by saying "Generates 1 Chi per target hit after initial target" or however it should be worded/coded.

Tier 2 (level 30)
Nothing wrong here, nice variability and largely personal preference.

Tier 3 (level 45)
Energizing Elixir, although much easier to use and weaker than in Legion, is still significantly stronger than the alternatives. Fists of the White Tiger could be used to be buffed a little bit so it becomes closer to EE as it provides a nice steady stream of resources and synergizes well with our abilities. If they are more comparable, FotWT will be looked at as the sustained option and EE as the burst option.

Ascension just isn't anywhere close to the other two. It requires a substantial buff, or an impossible amount of haste to stand a chance. It was nerfed in Legion Beta from 20% to 10%, and it wasn't anywhere near being strong enough at 20%. It could be buffed back to 20% or even 30% and still remain safely behind the other options, but not so far behind that people who prefer it are drastically hindering themselves.

Tier 4 (level 60)
Although this is largely our "control" tier of talents, the fact that Good Karma increases the damage and absorb that your Touch of Karma can do, will mean that its the only option that directly increases your DPS, and thus will be used almost always. It just seems out of place with the other talents based around crowd control abilities

Tier 5 (level 75)
Not much wrong here, good talents, and the past change to Inner Strength made it much more of an option when the other two aren't as needed.

Tier 6 (level 90)
This tier is more difficult to talk about. Hit Combo's nerf makes it so that it will just about never be taken, and most people are rejoicing for that.

Rushing Jade Wind is a very strong AOE spell, but it sucks the life out of the rotation and really makes it play very slowly with such limited energy. The fact that you can accidentally turn it off by hitting your Tiger Palm button too quickly and thus not having enough energy just feels crippling at times.

Two options for RJW are to make it cost something like 5 energy per second, but that cost gets reduced for every target that its hit in the last 5-10 seconds. So that with more targets, the less of an impact it has on your energy regen. The other option is to have it have an initial energy or chi cost, then energy or chi spent during its duration increase its duration, similar to how Storm Earth and Fire and Spiritual Focus work. These options could both be tuned so that it becomes a burst OR a sustained damage option in AOE situations.

Xuen currently is quite fine. His 2 minute cooldown feels much better. The main problem is that from many perspectives, he's doing a little bit too much damage. However, if the goal is that he's the option in 1-3 target fights, then mission accomplished.

Tier 7 (level 100)
Similar to tier 6, this one is difficult to talk about. Serenity and WDP have been notoriously difficult to balance, with one nearly always being better than the other, and it seemingly switching every new tier in Legion. However, with the above concerns about Blackout Kick's strength and the effect it has on how we may play Serenity, this talent just feels unnatural in that form.

Whirling Dragon Punch by itself is fine. Its long been my favorite talent in this tier whether its good or bad.

Spiritual Focus is a more confusing choice. It mimics the Split Personality artifact trait, which is great, and after being used to a shorter CD on SEF, having that still is nice. However, it just pails in comparison to the other options by a large margin. Before Spiritual Focus was put into place Power Strikes was actually a shockingly balanced option for that tier, being the preferred talent for single target, but losing out to WDP immediately with a second target. This felt very well planned and balanced, with each talent having its own role as a single target, AOE, or burst option.
I recognize that I talked about a whole lot, but I'm sure my passion for this spec and my penchant for being longwinded are well documented. Windwalker is in a really good place going into Battle for Azeroth. Most of the changes have been positive, and not many changes were needed. The spec is still incredibly fun and the Blackout Kick mechanic of reducing the CD on FoF and RSK is a stroke of genius.

However, because so much of the spec feels and looks so polished and well thought out, the above concerns stick out like a sore thumb.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.
On the weirdness of a potential DPS increase talent on the CC row, I know I speak for a few when I say replace "Good Karma" with the actual Good Karma (heal) from Legion rather than this new version... then maybe throw it where Inner Strength is, or something
EE is only better than FotWT due to bok having a 50% aura

Serenity at 12 seconds does not see any mastery breaks outside of lust with potentially 1 in lust. Hardly a problem to be quite honest.

Haste with serenity is still a dead stat not worth taking
Excellent post, as always. I'd just like to add that I think Energizing Elixir needs to be changed in some way. Being a button that completely refills your energy while also being on the GCD doesn't feel good at all. I hope that blizzard either turns it into an energy gained over time spell (for all the same reasons that they made Hungering Rune Weapon the baseline, rather than ERW, for Frost DK), or that they take EE off the GCD (in the same way that they never put Marked for Death on the GCD).
06/12/2018 10:50 PMPosted by Sermet
Excellent post, as always. I'd just like to add that I think Energizing Elixir needs to be changed in some way. Being a button that completely refills your energy while also being on the GCD doesn't feel good at all. I hope that blizzard either turns it into an energy gained over time spell (for all the same reasons that they made Hungering Rune Weapon the baseline, rather than ERW, for Frost DK), or that they take EE off the GCD (in the same way that they never put Marked for Death on the GCD).


EE just feels stupidly clunky and feels terrible as a result of the GCD change. I'm all for having more things added to the GCD, but it's current iteration being on the GCD just feels punishing. Even if it's really not. Energy over X/s could definitely help alleviate it, but I doubt it'll be a flawless solution.
Good post. The base rotation does feel good. So much so, that you can get away with picking all passive talents and it’s fine. But I don’t know why you suggest balancing RJW and Chi Burst in their talent tiers. I believe these AoE spells are messing up talent tree. And it seems to me, both spells were changed in BfA beta, unnecessarily, because of their discord with the single target spells in their talent tiers.

Look around. Arms T75, Fury T90, Destro T60, Enh T90, Asn T100, Outlaw T100. All AoE tiers. In fact, the only Tier I can find where there is AoE talent(s) paired with Single Target talent(s) (outside Monk) is Sub T100 (sort of). Yet WW monk has two dodgy tiers, BrM has one (T15), and MW has both.

It seems pretty obvious to me, RJW and Chi Burst should be on the same tier…

Not sure where to fit this hypothetical AoE tier, but, aside, if left with Eye of the Tiger and Chi Wave on T15, ergh… What a ‘welcome to the monk class’. No punching or kicking for you. Power Strikes could’ve replaced Eye of the Tiger. Why not? It’s cooler. More interesting. Better. Is someone going to argue WW ‘needs’ a tier where their talents do a little bit of damage and little bit of healing and why?

I’m also cynical about the number of cooldowns WW has, especially in this GCD world. I’m talking about SEF, Touch of Death, Xuen and Tigereye Brew (pvp talent). Looking at some other classes, there seems to be a ‘relaxing’, per se, of the ‘only Warriors can Execute’. DKs Soul Reaper. Asn Blindside. Aff Drain Soul. I would even count Rogue’s Marked for Death, akin. Considering this, I would like Touch of Death to return as an Execute of some form. A Soul Reaper clone would be my preferred mode.

I was looking forward to testing the Spiritual Focus talent. I had high hopes it might be akin to Tigereye Brew or Shadow Dance, two spells I love. But the SEF has a too long of a cooldown and therefore the talent ‘feels’ underwhelming. And then again, it’s SEF.

I’d like to add, that utility tiers T30, T60 & T75, while not bad tiers, lack the impact that other classes specs have. Warriors can talent and extra charge for Charge, which feels like it has a big impact. While Celerity, which gives roll an extra charge, since roll already has charges, has less impact. Warlocks can get Burning Rush, a class that has poor mobility - big impact. An entire tier focused on giving a class that has great inherent mobility, slightly better mobility, not so much impact. So, while not bad tiers, they seem a little wasteful, and are an option, if an AoE talent tier is under consideration.
Still waiting to see TeB get placed as a 100 talent to be honest at this point.

I feel that Bab's feedback perfectly lined out the concerns of a substantially large amount of the competitively raiding monks for the spec design and playstyle at the moment. While I do agree ignoring our mastery when using Serenity is a huge concern. It could open new doors to using other stat weights instead of just stacking as much mastery as possible as we had done this entire expansion.

I'd like to give my 2 cents on a talent that's been annoying me on beta ever since I downloaded it; our 100 talents have always been counter intuitive towards one another when paired it would offer some seriously enjoyable gameplay. Spiritual focus rightly in my opinion belongs in the talent line with our Chi-Regenerators, I.E. Ascension and Energizing Elixirs.

Furthermore, It'd feel more fluent and a better move to place Fist of the White tiger into the 100 talent line and increase it's damage to give it MORE of a "Strike of the Windlord" feel to it. Possibly I'd like to see it giving us some type of bonus damage aura during the duration of our DPS cooldown whether it be SEF or Serenity to give it some type of competitiveness towards the two reigning for entire expansion ( Serenity going on strong for two expansions now) talents Whirling Dragon Punch and Serenity.

Even if it is the case that another damage modifier would be a mistake and it would not be moved to the 100 talent line; it'd be an interesting mechanic if it was to be casted during Serenity or Storm, Earth, Fire it adds an additional amount of time, For Serenity, 4 seconds and for Storm Earth Fire, 7 seconds to the duration of either, instead of granting us 3 chi which ultimately I feel is just a over-polished Tiger Palm turd and would never be taken because we have much stronger options in that talent line.
06/12/2018 10:47 PMPosted by Disrespect
EE is only better than FotWT due to bok having a 50% aura

Serenity at 12 seconds does not see any mastery breaks outside of lust with potentially 1 in lust. Hardly a problem to be quite honest.

Haste with serenity is still a dead stat not worth taking


From the math that I did yesterday, you can get an extra RSK into Serenity with 0 haste, and no lust, if you ignore Mastery. With 12 seconds, plus the GCD, you have 11 available GCD. You'd want to use FoF at the last GCD to get the free cost, as it has a lower DPET than the other abilities.

Inside Serenity, RSK has a 5s CD with no haste, the cooldown of RSK looks like this in the 11 GCD that you have available.

If you go RSK (5s CD) > BoK (3s CD) > SCK (2s CD) > BoK (0s CD) > RSK (5s CD) > BoK (3s CD) > SCK (2s CD) > BoK (0s CD) > RSK (5s CD) > BoK (4s CD) > FoF (Serenity over)

However, if you ignore Mastery;
RSK (5s CD) > BoK (3s CD) > BoK (1s CD) > RSK (5s CD) > BoK (3s CD) > BoK (1s CD) > RSK (5s CD) > BoK (3s CD) > BoK (1s CD) > RSK (5s CD) > FoF (Serenity over)

So by ignoring Mastery on the 2nd BoK, you gain another RSK into Serenity. This is worth the loss of mastery since if you have less than 37.8% Mastery (the difference between BoK and SCK), you gain more than you lose, and if you have more than that Mastery, the extra RSK makes up the difference in lost mastery damage.
Mostly agree. The majority of the beta rotation right now is spaming blackout kick, which is definitely a strange feeling after legion. Weakens the gameplay a bit for a windwalker imo. If I wanted to spam the same finisher over and over I would just play a warrior.

I actually like the ability to use 1h or 2h weapons though. I don't think the fact that it is "more difficult" to determine the best weapon should be a factor to change this. Having the option is nice, and you will still be able to determine the best weapon.

I have to say though, I absolutely despise playing windwalker with RJW. If this becomes the best talent I very much doubt I would have any interest in this spec. They would have to make it less taxing on your energy, like you mentioned. It really sucks the life out of the spec as it is currently.
06/13/2018 12:49 AMPosted by Acurai
EE just feels stupidly clunky and feels terrible as a result of the GCD change. I'm all for having more things added to the GCD, but it's current iteration being on the GCD just feels punishing. Even if it's really not. Energy over X/s could definitely help alleviate it, but I doubt it'll be a flawless solution.


Would be cool, just the way it was in mop and wod but different numbers
06/12/2018 09:36 PMPosted by Babylonius
Windwalker hasn't really seen many changes the past few weeks, and its starting to get a little concerning.

Removed
Combo Breaker (Talent): When Tiger Palm causes the Blackout Kick! effect, the cooldown of Rising Sun Kick is reset. I'm sure RSK will get tuned to do more damage than BoKx2. With the Pressure Point Trait increasing Combo Breaker chance by 15%, you know how much fun this talent could of been? Theres currently only 2 pieces of gear in beta with this trait, which would give a 38% chance to proc Combo Breaker.

Wind Strike (Talent):When you use Fists of Fury, you next 3 Tiger Palm attacks release a gust of wind that deals 150% Physical damage to all enemies 8 yards in front of you. Want some more cleave, sure why not!

I don't recall where the above talents were in the talent tree but those were some useful talents!

Power Strikes (Talent) which i've never really used... until this beta, it worked rather well with how slow our energy regen is now, ontop of giving you that extra chi to save for a FoF. Sadly It competed with WDP and Serenity.

Flying Serpent Kick got reduced down 0.5 secs, which doesnt seem like a lot but I always find myself not being able to hit the button again to get that small amount of damage in.

Fist of Fury had its stun taken away in the pvp talents. FoF is a big part of WW's damage and has a long channel time. That 1 sec let you get some of the damage off before most classes could just step out of it.

Gained
Good Karma (Talent): Touch of Karma can now redirect an additional 50% of your maximum health. Some more damage in a tier where the other 2 add utility.

Spiritual Focus (Talent): Every 2 Chi you spend reduces the cooldown of Storm, Earth, and Fire by 1.0 sec. This talents sounded good but compared to the other 2 talents and the fact that SEF is a 1.5 min CD, it just comes up short. With RSK and FoF having a CD, I don't think were going to be spending much more chi with better gear.

06/12/2018 09:36 PMPosted by Babylonius
Blackout Kick's damage is too high

Rising Sun Kick-123.165% AP per Chi spent.
Blackout Kick---145.53% AP per Chi spent.
Fist of Fury------156.975% Ap per Chi spent.
How does mastery work into this? Since RSK and FoF will always gain the benefit of mastery, it seems like a good thing to know. If 20% mastery changes RSK to 147.798% per Chi, that seems to be the point where RSK starts to do more damage per chi than a Non Mastery BoKs.

I'm guessing they will most likely nerf blackout kick. If they buff RSK to do more per Chi than FoF, we could possibly still have the same issue that we wouldn't use FoF on CD, but only when we wanted to WDP or dump excess chi.

06/12/2018 09:36 PMPosted by Babylonius
This takes what is currently our hardest hitting ability and turns it into a secondary thought, only used to enable WDP or dump excess Chi.

"dump excess chi" it is actually nice to have a way to dump extra chi that wouldn't ignore our mastery!

06/12/2018 09:39 PMPosted by Babylonius
Fists of the White Tiger could be used to be buffed a little bit so it becomes closer to EE as it provides a nice steady stream of resources and synergizes well with our abilities.
Fists of the White Tiger adds an extra button, but its so similar to Tiger Palm I'm not sure why they just don't just make it like Power Strikes and just add the Buff to Tiger Palm every 30 secs. This would let the talent proc Combo Breaker and Apply the debuff for SCK.

06/12/2018 09:41 PMPosted by Babylonius
Blackout Kick mechanic of reducing the CD on FoF and RSK is a stroke of genius.
It is nice to RSK and FOF more often. WW seems to be getting a lot of CD reduction stuff going on with BoK, Spiritual Focus, and the Trait that reduces ToD by 1 sec when you Combo Strike.

I don't enjoy the spec as much as I did during MoP and WoD but it still resembles the play style of those xpacs. I jumped over to H DH at the start of legion but halfway through found myself back on my monk.

It would be nice to have a better way to dump excess Chi than doing a Non Mastery BoK (Personally I'd like to see a different Mastery). Combo Breaker should feel more rewarding and meaningful since its one of the few RNG aspects in our rotation.

With how much time is left till Pre Patch, it really is starting to feel like this is the WW Monk we are going to get in BFA, with just some number tweaks.
06/13/2018 09:06 AMPosted by Babylonius
06/12/2018 10:47 PMPosted by Disrespect
EE is only better than FotWT due to bok having a 50% aura

Serenity at 12 seconds does not see any mastery breaks outside of lust with potentially 1 in lust. Hardly a problem to be quite honest.

Haste with serenity is still a dead stat not worth taking


From the math that I did yesterday, you can get an extra RSK into Serenity with 0 haste, and no lust, if you ignore Mastery. With 12 seconds, plus the GCD, you have 11 available GCD. You'd want to use FoF at the last GCD to get the free cost, as it has a lower DPET than the other abilities.

Inside Serenity, RSK has a 5s CD with no haste, the cooldown of RSK looks like this in the 11 GCD that you have available.

If you go RSK (5s CD) > BoK (3s CD) > SCK (2s CD) > BoK (0s CD) > RSK (5s CD) > BoK (3s CD) > SCK (2s CD) > BoK (0s CD) > RSK (5s CD) > BoK (4s CD) > FoF (Serenity over)

However, if you ignore Mastery;
RSK (5s CD) > BoK (3s CD) > BoK (1s CD) > RSK (5s CD) > BoK (3s CD) > BoK (1s CD) > RSK (5s CD) > BoK (3s CD) > BoK (1s CD) > RSK (5s CD) > FoF (Serenity over)

So by ignoring Mastery on the 2nd BoK, you gain another RSK into Serenity. This is worth the loss of mastery since if you have less than 37.8% Mastery (the difference between BoK and SCK), you gain more than you lose, and if you have more than that Mastery, the extra RSK makes up the difference in lost mastery damage.


which is a sub optimal rotation unless at sub 15% or so mastery levels with bok having a random 50% damage aura and at near 0 mastery levels if bok gets its 50% boost removed
06/13/2018 04:19 PMPosted by Disrespect
which is a sub optimal rotation unless at sub 15% or so mastery levels with bok having a random 50% damage aura and at near 0 mastery levels if bok gets its 50% boost removed


I'm not sure how thats "suboptimal" based on the current numbers.

You need 37.8% Mastery for a Mastery-buffed SCK to do more damage than a non-Mastery-buffed BoK. Since BoK does 145.53% AP and SCK does 96% AP, increased to 105.6% with the 1 stack of Cyclone Strikes that you'd definitely have. So Mastery would have to increase the damage of SCK by 37.8% in order to match the damage of an unbuffed BoK. So above that, SCK does more damage than an unbuffed BoK, below that, it does not. However, the extra RSK that you'd get in Serenity would make it worthwhile even if you were over 37.8% Mastery.

If BoK gets the 50% damage buff removed then none of this matters.
06/13/2018 05:21 PMPosted by Babylonius
06/13/2018 04:19 PMPosted by Disrespect
which is a sub optimal rotation unless at sub 15% or so mastery levels with bok having a random 50% damage aura and at near 0 mastery levels if bok gets its 50% boost removed


I'm not sure how thats "suboptimal" based on the current numbers.

You need 37.8% Mastery for a Mastery-buffed SCK to do more damage than a non-Mastery-buffed BoK. Since BoK does 145.53% AP and SCK does 96% AP, increased to 105.6% with the 1 stack of Cyclone Strikes that you'd definitely have. So Mastery would have to increase the damage of SCK by 37.8% in order to match the damage of an unbuffed BoK. So above that, SCK does more damage than an unbuffed BoK, below that, it does not. However, the extra RSK that you'd get in Serenity would make it worthwhile even if you were over 37.8% Mastery.

If BoK gets the 50% damage buff removed then none of this matters.


Because you don't determine fof damage by DPET, you determine it by DPEGCD, which at any non 0 haste is 3.

you replace a bok>bok>rsk with fof while also guaranteeing no mastery breaks. The overall AP contribution of both sequences is relatively equal in the range of 15-20% mastery and if bok loses its 50% aura a sequence with 2x fof 3x rsk serenity and no mastery breaks beats out 1x fof 4x rsk even at almost 0 mastery.

SCK has absolutely nothing to do with anything and will not be used in serenity single target ever
Also, with the changes to loot happening (forced personal), I welcome the ability to use a 2hander again because then you only need one weapon to drop instead of 2.

I just know in the past they needed “The Way of the Monk” passive to balance out the differences in damage, and I’m curious to see if they will need to reimplement it.
06/13/2018 07:02 PMPosted by Disrespect
Because you don't determine fof damage by DPET, you determine it by DPEGCD, which at any non 0 haste is 3.

you replace a bok>bok>rsk with fof while also guaranteeing no mastery breaks. The overall AP contribution of both sequences is relatively equal in the range of 15-20% mastery and if bok loses its 50% aura a sequence with 2x fof 3x rsk serenity and no mastery breaks beats out 1x fof 4x rsk even at almost 0 mastery.

SCK has absolutely nothing to do with anything and will not be used in serenity single target ever


Not that I really feel like this is the best place for this discussion, you're more than welcome to continue it with me in Discord, but....

I've never heard of "DPEGCD" which I assume is "Damage Per Effective Global Cooldown", which I guess is how many GCDs it takes for an ability. I'm not sure how FoF's is 3, when it takes 1 GCD plus 3 seconds of channel time without Haste. If you're discussing things with a certain level of haste, then I guess we've been talking about different things this whole time. I also don't see how DPEGCD is different from DPET or "Damage Per Execution Time", or the time it takes to fully execute an ability.

I don't intend to patronize you, but I'm sure this will come across that way, I just want to make sure that we're talking about the same thing.

Normally we prioritize abilities based on Damage Per Chi, but when Serenity takes the Chi cost away, the limiting resource is time, so you need to get the most out of every second, so you prioritize abilities by how much damage per how much time they take, or DPET. If we look at the damage that each ability does per their execution time, and we have to include SCK because we do currently use it as a filler to keep up mastery, so you can't say we wont use it "ever".


  • Blackout Kick – 145.53% AP over 1 second = 145.53% AP per ET
  • Rising Sun Kick – 246.33% AP over 1 second = 145.53% AP per ET
  • Fists of Fury – 470.925% AP over 4 seconds with 0 haste = 117.7% AP per ET
  • Spinning Crane Kick – 105.6% AP in single target = 105.6% AP per ET


So, if we look at the potential DPET, FoF is 3rd of the 4 abilities, so we don't want to just throw away valuable Serenity time by using it. This means that, like Serenity has been all Legion, we'll look to use FoF at the end of Serenity so that we get it for free. We won't look to get 2 casts of FoF during Serenity, we'll use FoF before Serenity so that its up again at the end. This is why we'll either need to use SCK as a filler, or ignore Mastery a little bit to spam BoK, using the sequences that I outlined above.

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