Retribution Downtimes and Talents

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Since Arms Warrior will get a Rage-talent „rework“ in a upcoming build, and Ret has a very similar issue with Holy Power generation, and how much it changes dependend on talent choices, i want to lobby for a change once again:

Issue:

Retribution downtimes currently on BfA are very dependend on talent choices, they range from ~4% up to 17% which is a massive difference to start with.
The main reason why this occurs is because +HoPo talents are too scattered. Basically T30 is ur main +HoPo generation Tier, but T60 also has 2 talent which provide HoPo and finally in T100 there is Divine Purpose which has a chance to make Spender free, effectively giving +3HoPo.
So in T60 Divine Judgment, which has zero rotational impact, competes with two +HoPo talents. While in T100, DP has a chance to give +3 HoPo for free, but Crusade and Inquisition provide Haste, and therefore dont lower ur rotational Downtimes.
This massive difference in downtimes is both noticeable ingame but also shows in early Sims:
https://i.imgur.com/85e7jTn.png

Suggestion for Solutions:

a.
The obviously easy solution would be to exchange DP and DJ, while slightly increasing baseline HoPo generation. But thematically both dont really fit into either tier. So this would just be an easy bandaid fix.

b.
- Change DJ to also have an impact on HP generation e.g.:
Each enemy hit by an ability that consumes Holy Power increases the damage of your next Judgment by ~10%, and reduces its CD by ~0,5sec stacking up to ~10 times.

- make DP baseline, or move DP to T30 and make BoW or HoW baseline, adjust numbers ofc.

- add a new 100 talent which could be Seraphim, or something which resembles old Seals, since there are quite some requests to do so, e.g:
Crusaders Strike or Auto Attacks apply a stacking DoT with X%dmg over ~Xsec max 3 stacks per target. For each stack u gain 2% Haste up to a maximum of 3 stacks.

This however would require new talents to be implemented which im not sure is possible since we are allready really late into Beta.

Conclusion

In my oppinion some downtime for Retribution is fine. But right now the difference in certain talent combinations is way too big. Especially if setups like BoW / DJ / Crus end up as ur best DPS combo, Min-Max player will sit at 17% downtime, which i personally think is unbearable.
So even if Solution a. would be a bandaid fix, i'd still prefer it over having talent setups with more then 10% downtimes.

So long
Why not simply shorten the cd of our builders?
And giving us a baseline proc...our evil twin brothers aka deathknights (Unholy and Frost) have at least one baseline proc, Frost even two.
06/07/2018 07:31 AMPosted by Belerian
Why not simply shorten the cd of our builders?
And giving us a baseline proc...our evil twin brothers aka deathknights (Unholy and Frost) have at least one baseline proc, Frost even two.


Because the highest downtime setup is 17%! To bring it down to reasonable ~10% u would need to add alot of basline HoPo. But since there are allready 3.5% setups theres not much room to lower it.

There are a few reasons why u dont want downtime to be way lower then 4-5% with talents:

- it might lead to situations where we get more HoPo then we can spend, and overcap HoPo on purpose. since builder have a CD and do quite alot of dmg in BfA.
- it would make certain talents useless, since more HoPo wont be desireable, and leave talents like DP as dead spots once again
- there would be no room for Blizz to add +HoPo traits on azerithe gear, which i suppose they want to add at some point

And my suggestion b. would make DP / BoW aka a proc baseline.
I totally get your point and it's absolutely valid...but in Legion I could take (if I wanted to) Fires of Justice, Blade of Wrath and DP. That wasn't a problem either. Sure, with enough haste that leads to a VERY fast paced playstyle, but in BfA:
-we can't take BoW AND FoJ
-the cooldown of CS is massively increased
-BoW's proc chance is reduced
-we are not likely to get as much haste as Legion, because azerite gear has no secondaries and haste seems to be rare on items (might be subjective).
06/07/2018 09:24 AMPosted by Belerian
I totally get your point and it's absolutely valid...but in Legion I could take (if I wanted to) Fires of Justice, Blade of Wrath and DP. That wasn't a problem either. Sure, with enough haste that leads to a VERY fast paced playstyle, but in BfA:
-we can't take BoW AND FoJ
-the cooldown of CS is massively increased
-BoW's proc chance is reduced
-we are not likely to get as much haste as Legion, because azerite gear has no secondaries and haste seems to be rare on items (might be subjective).


In Legion overcapping HoPo was never an issue since spender did alot mroe dmg then builder, but this changes in BfA. So with 0% or less downtimes BfA Ret wouldnt really work imo. So we will have some rotational gaps in BfA, its just a matter of how much, and 17% seems way to much for me personally.

And Haste doenst lower Downtimes, since it deacreases GCD as well as ability CDs.
06/07/2018 09:10 AMPosted by Degstaerian
Because the highest downtime setup is 17%! To bring it down to reasonable ~10% u would need to add alot of basline HoPo.


Our downtime in Legion is about 3-4%, and the reason is that Crusader Strike has a baseline 4.5 second cooldown instead of 6 for BfA.

Otherwise, the spec is near identical, barring Wake of Ashes being 30 seconds in Legion vs 45 seconds in BfA.

06/07/2018 09:10 AMPosted by Degstaerian
- it might lead to situations where we get more HoPo then we can spend, and overcap HoPo on purpose. since builder have a CD and do quite alot of dmg in BfA.


Crusader Strike has 2 charges so can be left to recharge.

06/07/2018 09:10 AMPosted by Degstaerian
- it would make certain talents useless, since more HoPo wont be desireable, and leave talents like DP as dead spots once again


DP was dead in Legion because of Crusade being 15% damage gain. It wasn't dead because of HoPo overcap.
06/07/2018 09:44 AMPosted by Beraht
06/07/2018 09:10 AMPosted by Degstaerian
Because the highest downtime setup is 17%! To bring it down to reasonable ~10% u would need to add alot of basline HoPo.


Our downtime in Legion is about 3-4%, and the reason is that Crusader Strike has a baseline 4.5 second cooldown instead of 6 for BfA.

Otherwise, the spec is near identical, barring Wake of Ashes being 30 seconds in Legion vs 45 seconds in BfA.

06/07/2018 09:10 AMPosted by Degstaerian
- it might lead to situations where we get more HoPo then we can spend, and overcap HoPo on purpose. since builder have a CD and do quite alot of dmg in BfA.


Crusader Strike has 2 charges so can be left to recharge.

06/07/2018 09:10 AMPosted by Degstaerian
- it would make certain talents useless, since more HoPo wont be desireable, and leave talents like DP as dead spots once again


DP was dead in Legion because of Crusade being 15% damage gain. It wasn't dead because of HoPo overcap.


Im not quite sure what u are trying to mell me?
06/08/2018 03:50 AMPosted by Degstaerian
Im not quite sure what u are trying to mell me?


That the adjustment that made our wait time so high is a simple 1.5 second CD nerf on Crusader Strike.

We don't need a massive influx of Holy Power to fix the rotational downtime. Just a small cooldown adjustment on generators.
06/08/2018 05:19 AMPosted by Beraht
06/08/2018 03:50 AMPosted by Degstaerian
Im not quite sure what u are trying to mell me?


That the adjustment that made our wait time so high is a simple 1.5 second CD nerf on Crusader Strike.

We don't need a massive influx of Holy Power to fix the rotational downtime. Just a small cooldown adjustment on generators.


Its not simply only CS. Judgment got changed, we lost WoA baseline, and ontop of that ur talents are very different. And the later are the issue imo.

We have talent setups with only 4% downtime, which is absolutely fine. But there are also setups with 17% downtime.
So it is quite obvious that ur rotational problem isnt baseline, and shouldnt be fixed baseline, but with talents!

so long
06/08/2018 05:48 AMPosted by Degstaerian
Its not simply only CS. Judgment got changed, we lost WoA baseline, and ontop of that ur talents are very different. And the later are the issue imo.


CS is the only ability that suffered a major cooldown nerf. A whole 1.5 seconds was added to the ability. That's an entire GCD gone every 4.5 seconds. It's a 33% increase to its cooldown.

Judgment has the same cooldown as Legion in BfA, 12 seconds baseline modified by Haste. That hasn't changed and the debuff change doesn't impact wait time at all.

WoA was once every 30 seconds. It did not really cause a big difference in wait time.

Talenting into DP/BoW/WoA in BfA gives you pretty much the same toolkit as you have in Legion in normal Antorus talents/gear. The wait time difference though is still quite apparent.

All because of that very simple Crusader Strike cooldown nerf. It's literally the culprit.
06/08/2018 08:22 AMPosted by Beraht
06/08/2018 05:48 AMPosted by Degstaerian
Its not simply only CS. Judgment got changed, we lost WoA baseline, and ontop of that ur talents are very different. And the later are the issue imo.


CS is the only ability that suffered a major cooldown nerf. A whole 1.5 seconds was added to the ability. That's an entire GCD gone every 4.5 seconds. It's a 33% increase to its cooldown.

Judgment has the same cooldown as Legion in BfA, 12 seconds baseline modified by Haste. That hasn't changed and the debuff change doesn't impact wait time at all.

WoA was once every 30 seconds. It did not really cause a big difference in wait time.

Talenting into DP/BoW/WoA in BfA gives you pretty much the same toolkit as you have in Legion in normal Antorus talents/gear. The wait time difference though is still quite apparent.

All because of that very simple Crusader Strike cooldown nerf. It's literally the culprit.


Judgment didnt change, yes my bad.

But ur looking at the case just by picking the best setup to have minimal downtimes.
Im not.

Im looking at the worst case, and thats what i think needs to change.
I dont have an issue with 4-5% downtime at all.

However if u think DP/BoW/WoA allready is an issue, which has ~5% downtime, how can u not want the talents to be refined so that all setups are even below 10%?

so long
06/08/2018 09:16 AMPosted by Degstaerian
But ur looking at the case just by picking the best setup to have minimal downtimes.
Im not.


Go to Legion, pick GJ/VB/Crusade. Compare to BfA HoW/WoA/Crusade.

The difference between those specs is literally CS and the WoA CD.

Note the difference in wait time.

1.5 extra seconds on a 4.5 second (6.0 in BfA!) recharge ability is a huge nerf.

06/08/2018 09:16 AMPosted by Degstaerian
However if u think DP/BoW/WoA allready is an issue, which has ~5% downtime, how can u not want the talents to be refined so that all setups are even below 10%?


I do want to fix it. But I want the actual fix : Crusader Strike back down to 4.5 seconds like Legion.

No need for a massive reform of the spec. Literally 1 minor number adjustment.
06/08/2018 09:31 AMPosted by Beraht

06/08/2018 09:16 AMPosted by Degstaerian
However if u think DP/BoW/WoA allready is an issue, which has ~5% downtime, how can u not want the talents to be refined so that all setups are even below 10%?


I do want to fix it. But I want the actual fix : Crusader Strike back down to 4.5 seconds like Legion.

No need for a massive reform of the spec. Literally 1 minor number adjustment.


Im not even asking for a massive reform, 2 talent swaps DJ and DP and minor CD changes on builder.
The change in Crusader Strike's recharge means that with 0% Haste (and the ratios don't change with more Haste, so this applies even with high Haste) in BfA you can use CS 10 times per minute, and then hit a 3 HoPo finisher 3.333 times per minute. Thus in BfA CS can use 13.333 GCD/minute.

In Legion you can get 13.333 CS per minute, and 4.444 finishers from that. That's 17.777 GCD/minute, or 4.444 more than in BfA.

At 0% Haste there are 40 GCD/minute. Thus the CS change removed 4.444/40 x 100 = 11.11% of our actions per minute.

As Beraht says, this change is why the base rotation now has gaping holes in it. Adding Holy Power generation to Judgment added 1.667 finishers/minute back in, but even allowing for those the base BfA rotation is still ~7% short of the base Legion rotation's actions/minute.

Also, for most of Legion TFoJ and/or BoW were preferred talents, making the Legion rotation much less open, even after the BoW change. It's only in this last tier that this hasn't been the case, and in T21 we just about all have all the good legendaries and can choose to have DP+Crusade if we want.
I do understand how CS CD changed the rotation.

Now imagine BfA had CS with 4.5sec baseline:
Ur worst talent setup would still have ~6% downtime, but with setups like FoJ/Cons/DP u could build more HoPo then u can spend, which leaves the issues i did note above:

- it MIGHT lead to situations where we overcap HoPo on purpose. since builder do way more dmg relative to spenders compared to Legion.
- it would make certain talents hard to balance, since more HoPo wont be desireable, and probably lead to dead spots once again
- there would be no room for Blizz to add +HoPo traits on azerithe gear, which i suppose they want to add at some point

In my Oppinion, in order to avoid these things, talents need to be reshuffled first, before baseline changes can even be made.

so long
06/08/2018 10:38 AMPosted by Degstaerian
FoJ/Cons/DP u could build more HoPo then u can spend, which leaves the issues i did note above:


Then don't run DP with TFoJ ? That's what Crusade/Inq are for.

I'd rather have a build with HoPo overcapping but that leaves Crusade/Inq being usable without wait time, than be stuck speccing into Casino RNG just to manage to fill out GCDs.

06/08/2018 10:38 AMPosted by Degstaerian
In my Oppinion, in order to avoid these things, talents need to be reshuffled first, before baseline changes can even be made.


So you're arguing against a very quick fix that solves the issue, in favor of a complete talent overhaul that will probably introduce a bunch of other issues.

Let's just do the CS 4.5 seconds thing. You can just pick not to spec into TFoJ/DP.
06/08/2018 10:42 AMPosted by Beraht

06/08/2018 10:38 AMPosted by Degstaerian
In my Oppinion, in order to avoid these things, talents need to be reshuffled first, before baseline changes can even be made.


So you're arguing against a very quick fix that solves the issue, in favor of a complete talent overhaul that will probably introduce a bunch of other issues.

Let's just do the CS 4.5 seconds thing. You can just pick not to spec into TFoJ/DP.


How is swapping 2 talents a complete overhaul? like whot de fok?
06/08/2018 10:45 AMPosted by Degstaerian
06/08/2018 10:42 AMPosted by Beraht

...

So you're arguing against a very quick fix that solves the issue, in favor of a complete talent overhaul that will probably introduce a bunch of other issues.

Let's just do the CS 4.5 seconds thing. You can just pick not to spec into TFoJ/DP.


How is swapping 2 talents a complete overhaul? like whot de fok?


Swapping 2 talents can have a pretty big impact on performance, the other 4 talents on the rows with those, and build synergies.

Adjusting a cooldown doesn't have these issues.

Keep It Simple.
Ret needs a proc baseline. Either Blade of Wrath (which is effectively the old "Art of War"), Divine Purpose or Empowered Divine Storm / Divine Crusader from WoD.

If not baseline, Empowered Divine Storm / Divine Crusader should replace the "Divine Judgment" talent. I made a post about it not long ago.
Ret would need quite a bit to drop that down time.

Ret should have a baseline proc, blade of wrath would work perfectly. Itd be functionally sound and be in line with the theme of ret paladins having powerful procs since the end of wotlk.

That said, I think theyd also need a cd reduction on a few spells to also bring it back up to as quick as it is now.

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