Retribution Downtimes and Talents

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
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06/08/2018 11:05 AMPosted by Auras
Ret would need quite a bit to drop that down time.


You say as the math in this very thread shows a mere reduction on CS' cooldown is enough.

The only reason we have such high wait time in BfA is literally all 1 small change : CS having a baseline 6.0 cooldown instead of 4.5.

A tiny change, a big impact on wait time.
Hey all,

Since the first round of changes to Retribution early on in alpha, we've been letting the spec settle into a steady-state, but have been very much keeping it in mind. Like many have suggested, the spec is almost all the way there, but is missing a little bit baseline.

Blade of Wrath
Blade of Wrath's mechanic is becoming baseline, named Art of War: Your auto attacks have a chance to reset the cooldown of Blade of Justice. Any many correctly pointed out, this is a sort of unpredictability that the spec needed in its baseline rotation.

Blade of Wrath, the talent, will now increase the frequency of Art of War resets and cause its proc to also increase the damage of the next Blade of Justice by 25%. Numbers are pending tuning, but the gameplay is there.

Divine Purpose
Divine Purpose's proc chance has been reduced to 15% (down from 20%), but it now also increases the damage and healing of that free Holy Power spender by 20%.

The entire value of this talent was in the free Holy Power proc, which is a huge swing on button presses and pacing, but which neither of its talent match-ups provide. This change reduces that difference slightly and gives Divine Purpose a little more nuance to its gameplay – now you may consider saving or waiting for that proc to use on a different Holy Power spender from usual.

Thanks for the patience and continued feedback.
06/08/2018 05:47 PMPosted by Seph
Hey all,

Since the first round of changes to Retribution early on in alpha, we've been letting the spec settle into a steady-state, but have been very much keeping it in mind. Like many have suggested, the spec is almost all the way there, but is missing a little bit baseline.

Blade of Wrath
Blade of Wrath's mechanic is becoming baseline, named Art of War: Your auto attacks have a chance to reset the cooldown of Blade of Justice. Any many correctly pointed out, this is a sort of unpredictability that the spec needed in its baseline rotation.

Blade of Wrath, the talent, will now increase the frequency of Art of War resets and cause its proc to also increase the damage of the next Blade of Justice by 25%. Numbers are pending tuning, but the gameplay is there.

Divine Purpose
Divine Purpose's proc chance has been reduced to 15% (down from 20%), but it now also increases the damage and healing of that free Holy Power spender by 20%.

The entire value of this talent was in the free Holy Power proc, which is a huge swing on button presses and pacing, but which neither of its talent match-ups provide. This change reduces that difference slightly and gives Divine Purpose a little more nuance to its gameplay – now you may consider saving or waiting for that proc to use on a different Holy Power spender from usual.

Thanks for the patience and continued feedback.

This sounds pretty cool. I can live with this. Kinda wish there was more to our AOE in general and wish we could get any type of word on mobility, but it does feel like we’re close to a good spot overall mechanically.
06/08/2018 05:47 PMPosted by Seph
Hey all,

Since the first round of changes to Retribution early on in alpha, we've been letting the spec settle into a steady-state, but have been very much keeping it in mind. Like many have suggested, the spec is almost all the way there, but is missing a little bit baseline.

Blade of Wrath
Blade of Wrath's mechanic is becoming baseline, named Art of War: Your auto attacks have a chance to reset the cooldown of Blade of Justice. Any many correctly pointed out, this is a sort of unpredictability that the spec needed in its baseline rotation.

Blade of Wrath, the talent, will now increase the frequency of Art of War resets and cause its proc to also increase the damage of the next Blade of Justice by 25%. Numbers are pending tuning, but the gameplay is there.

Divine Purpose
Divine Purpose's proc chance has been reduced to 15% (down from 20%), but it now also increases the damage and healing of that free Holy Power spender by 20%.

The entire value of this talent was in the free Holy Power proc, which is a huge swing on button presses and pacing, but which neither of its talent match-ups provide. This change reduces that difference slightly and gives Divine Purpose a little more nuance to its gameplay – now you may consider saving or waiting for that proc to use on a different Holy Power spender from usual.

Thanks for the patience and continued feedback.


Thank you for the changes!
Really wish we could get more of a direct back and forth with the Devs, but it's great to see that you're at least considering our feedback.

I don't suppose we can expect anything to change for our mobility/utility?
Nice. It'll be good to be able to take hammer of wrath while having the baseline blade of wrath talent. Really keep the flow of holy power generation.

Now if only we could get things like blessing of sac back.
Are the numbers for Art of War the same as the current Blade talent? If not, I just feel like there still isn't much of a choice. That proc is so important.
dear blizzard friend,

Are you guys open to the idea of taking judgements holy power away, and replacing it in the form the current 4set as a buff to reduce the spender cost by 1, it's pretty much the same thing but different. I don't know if it's just me but I honestly feel that the 4 set version plays a lot better the current one outright granting it.

Currently u can just judge off cd cause of the 4set, but on beta you have 3 power with a blade reset/judge now you have to judge>spender blade to avoid over capping power, so blade is sitting for 2-3 gcds off cooldown not waiting in the wings for a reset because of judge outright giving a power.

It may not be much but it does feel a lot better then being pigeonholed into that and maybe even more so now with the new art of war increasing blade reset proc rate.
06/08/2018 06:04 PMPosted by Elizavette
Are the numbers for Art of War the same as the current Blade talent? If not, I just feel like there still isn't much of a choice. That proc is so important.

That’s just tuning. Hopefully they will try to turn AoW in such a way that it is reasonably impactful without the talent and the other two have sufficient damage to offset the need for the talent.

In my dearest opinion, Hammer or Wrath doesn’t hit that hard for an execute. But I haven’t mentioned it because it’s all numbers tuning. They can either up the window of access, or increase the damage to make the GCD potent in the windows that it exists because I’D love to play HOW.
dear blizzard friend,

Are you guys open to the idea of taking judgements holy power away, and replacing it in the form the current 4set as a buff to reduce the spender cost by 1, it's pretty much the same thing but different. I don't know if it's just me but I honestly feel that the 4 set version plays a lot better the current one outright granting it.

Currently u can just judge off cd cause of the 4set, but on beta you have 4 power with a blade reset/judge now you have to judge>spender blade to avoid over capping power, so blade is sitting for 2-3 gcds off cooldown not weighting in the wings for a reset because of judge outright giving a power.

It may not be much but it does feel a lot better then pigeonholed into that and maybe even more so now with the new art of war increasing blade reset proc rate.

I wouldn’t like this for the main purpose of PvP. It’s nice to be able to poke my head out and build HP for a better entry. It’s pretty important to have that ranged HP generation.
06/08/2018 06:05 PMPosted by Valdro
dear blizzard friend,

Are you guys open to the idea of taking judgements holy power away, and replacing it in the form the current 4set as a buff to reduce the spender cost by 1, it's pretty much the same thing but different. I don't know if it's just me but I honestly feel that the 4 set version plays a lot better the current one outright granting it.

Currently u can just judge off cd cause of the 4set, but on beta you have 4 power with a blade reset/judge now you have to judge>spender blade to avoid over capping power, so blade is sitting for 2-3 gcds off cooldown not waiting in the wings for a reset because of judge outright giving a power.

It may not be much but it does feel a lot better then being pigeonholed into that and maybe even more so now with the new art of war increasing blade reset proc rate.


Even on Live you would still need to Judge > Spender > Blade. Blade generates 2HP and we can only store 5HP. We do not want to overcap HP with Blade.
06/08/2018 05:47 PMPosted by Seph
Hey all,

Since the first round of changes to Retribution early on in alpha, we've been letting the spec settle into a steady-state, but have been very much keeping it in mind. Like many have suggested, the spec is almost all the way there, but is missing a little bit baseline.

Blade of Wrath
Blade of Wrath's mechanic is becoming baseline, named Art of War: Your auto attacks have a chance to reset the cooldown of Blade of Justice. Any many correctly pointed out, this is a sort of unpredictability that the spec needed in its baseline rotation.

Blade of Wrath, the talent, will now increase the frequency of Art of War resets and cause its proc to also increase the damage of the next Blade of Justice by 25%. Numbers are pending tuning, but the gameplay is there.

Divine Purpose
Divine Purpose's proc chance has been reduced to 15% (down from 20%), but it now also increases the damage and healing of that free Holy Power spender by 20%.

The entire value of this talent was in the free Holy Power proc, which is a huge swing on button presses and pacing, but which neither of its talent match-ups provide. This change reduces that difference slightly and gives Divine Purpose a little more nuance to its gameplay – now you may consider saving or waiting for that proc to use on a different Holy Power spender from usual.

Thanks for the patience and continued feedback.


This is a good change. Any word on AoE?
06/08/2018 06:11 PMPosted by Ilivath
06/08/2018 06:05 PMPosted by Valdro
dear blizzard friend,

Are you guys open to the idea of taking judgements holy power away, and replacing it in the form the current 4set as a buff to reduce the spender cost by 1, it's pretty much the same thing but different. I don't know if it's just me but I honestly feel that the 4 set version plays a lot better the current one outright granting it.

Currently u can just judge off cd cause of the 4set, but on beta you have 4 power with a blade reset/judge now you have to judge>spender blade to avoid over capping power, so blade is sitting for 2-3 gcds off cooldown not waiting in the wings for a reset because of judge outright giving a power.

It may not be much but it does feel a lot better then being pigeonholed into that and maybe even more so now with the new art of war increasing blade reset proc rate.


Even on Live you would still need to Judge > Spender > Blade. Blade generates 2HP and we can only store 5HP. We do not want to overcap HP with Blade.


My example might be more prudent if my example was 3 power instead of 4, will edit. thank you sir. I do honestly think the 4set version would be smoother though, might just be me though.
06/08/2018 06:05 PMPosted by Valdro
dear blizzard friend,

Are you guys open to the idea of taking judgements holy power away, and replacing it in the form the current 4set as a buff to reduce the spender cost by 1, it's pretty much the same thing but different. I don't know if it's just me but I honestly feel that the 4 set version plays a lot better the current one outright granting it.

Currently u can just judge off cd cause of the 4set, but on beta you have 3 power with a blade reset/judge now you have to judge>spender blade to avoid over capping power, so blade is sitting for 2-3 gcds off cooldown not waiting in the wings for a reset because of judge outright giving a power.

It may not be much but it does feel a lot better then being pigeonholed into that and maybe even more so now with the new art of war increasing blade reset proc rate.


I doubt they would do that for the simple fact that it allows 2 TV's in a row, which could potentially cause issues for PVP tuning (pretty big burst potential).
06/08/2018 06:10 PMPosted by Shyja
I wouldn’t like this for the main purpose of PvP. It’s nice to be able to poke my head out and build HP for a better entry. It’s pretty important to have that ranged HP generation.


maybe, but we haven't had it all legion, even so I see the value but possibly just stuck in 4set ways.
wow nice
06/08/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Dazanna
06/08/2018 06:05 PMPosted by Valdro
dear blizzard friend,

Are you guys open to the idea of taking judgements holy power away, and replacing it in the form the current 4set as a buff to reduce the spender cost by 1, it's pretty much the same thing but different. I don't know if it's just me but I honestly feel that the 4 set version plays a lot better the current one outright granting it.

Currently u can just judge off cd cause of the 4set, but on beta you have 3 power with a blade reset/judge now you have to judge>spender blade to avoid over capping power, so blade is sitting for 2-3 gcds off cooldown not waiting in the wings for a reset because of judge outright giving a power.

It may not be much but it does feel a lot better then being pigeonholed into that and maybe even more so now with the new art of war increasing blade reset proc rate.


I doubt they would do that for the simple fact that it allows 2 TV's in a row, which could potentially cause issues for PVP tuning (pretty big burst potential).

I don’t see this as an issue big enough that they couldn’t balance around. The talent that gives free HP spenders already does this, you can go 3-4 TV in a row, all based on luck, and it doesn’t break the game so far.
06/08/2018 05:47 PMPosted by Seph


Blade of Wrath
Blade of Wrath's mechanic is becoming baseline, named Art of War: Your auto attacks have a chance to reset the cooldown of Blade of Justice. Any many correctly pointed out, this is a sort of unpredictability that the spec needed in its baseline rotation.

Blade of Wrath, the talent, will now increase the frequency of Art of War resets and cause its proc to also increase the damage of the next Blade of Justice by 25%. Numbers are pending tuning, but the gameplay is there.


This is pretty good change, it will differently help with the rotation. The new talent portion may be a bit concerning though, depending on how often AoW procs and how much more this new talent benefits it.

This could totally eclipse HoW and Fires of Justice because it is a "2 Holy Power Gain" vs HoW generating 1 holy power and Fires of Justice just reducing the cost of the next finisher by 1.

The bonus to getting 2 Holy Power feels like it will always outweigh the others.

HoW still only feels usable with Crusade too. =/

06/08/2018 05:47 PMPosted by Seph
Divine Purpose
Divine Purpose's proc chance has been reduced to 15% (down from 20%), but it now also increases the damage and healing of that free Holy Power spender by 20%.

The entire value of this talent was in the free Holy Power proc, which is a huge swing on button presses and pacing, but which neither of its talent match-ups provide. This change reduces that difference slightly and gives Divine Purpose a little more nuance to its gameplay – now you may consider saving or waiting for that proc to use on a different Holy Power spender from usual


This is quite questionable just because our tier 100 is so boring already.

The tier 100 talents alone don't feel all that great. Crusade without HoW is just passive +damage, Inquisition is just a finisher you push every 45 seconds. No numbers pop up. Divine Purpose now having a 5% less chance to proc can make it feel pretty bad, especially on some shorter fights.

I like this in theory, but it feels like you'll become either a lucky God, doing 20% more damage every other TV, or be the unluckiest person in the game and just feel like it's a wasted talent. Varying length of fights of course.

It multiples the value of JV and WoG by a lot, making Selfless Healer even more undesirable. And could also lead into ES being the best tier 15 talent, if you "saved" or got a DP every 20 seconds.

I think it'll just swing to many other talents into having to spec into DP.
Very nice changes, will have to try them out to see how this affects down time. We still may need a cooldown reduction somewhere, but this is certainly an improvement. Hopefully some of our other issues will be touched on before long as well, like mobility.
06/08/2018 06:22 PMPosted by Valdro
06/08/2018 06:10 PMPosted by Shyja
I wouldn’t like this for the main purpose of PvP. It’s nice to be able to poke my head out and build HP for a better entry. It’s pretty important to have that ranged HP generation.


maybe, but we haven't had it all legion, even so I see the value but possibly just stuck in 4set ways.

True we did without, but it was honestly one of my biggest peeves lol. I hated that our furthest ranged attack wasn’t an HP builder because it’s the most natural button to press on the way in. Designing it as a button to use prior to a finisher felt really weird.

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