Retribution Downtimes and Talents

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
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06/28/2018 05:59 PMPosted by Churchmouse
TV: physical, melee range. FV: magic, 10 yd range. Scourge Strike: physical, melee range. Clawing Shadows: magic, 30 yd range.


Perhaps the fact that in your example Scourge Strike and TV are doing physical damage from a physical weapon swing what makes them "non magic".

TV in BfA and Legion does Holy Damage and BfA gives it that snazzy magical effect. There's no doubt it's a magical effect.

The range in your example is not what makes it a spell or not, it's the physical vs Holy/Shadow damage.

06/28/2018 07:24 PMPosted by Kaisarios
06/28/2018 06:43 PMPosted by Erriden
Divine Judgment


I HATE that talent. It makes zero sense from a Ret gameplay perspective.. Who the heck thought that was a good idea to implement...


It makes zero sense where it's placed in the talents either. Row of 6 AoE HoPo generators... with a ST damage increase that generates no Holy Power...

I honestly hope it sims bad, is a dead talent and gets replaced with 8.1 with something that's AoE and impacts HoPo generation so that the row becomes entirely a playstyle choice. EDS floated around as an option, and it is AoE and saves you HoPo, so it could fit the bill.
06/28/2018 07:24 PMPosted by Kaisarios
I HATE that talent. It makes zero sense from a Ret gameplay perspective.. Who the heck thought that was a good idea to implement...


It's not a bad idea, but poorly implemented and non competitive with the other talents. It's the same kind of cleave funneling that Enhancement Shaman has, but like Enhancement, should have just been a baseline passive to give Judgment more presence.

There's a couple problems: Judgement's baseline DMG is pretty low and has a 12s cooldown (reduced by haste). So even if you could consistently cap stacks, it's only a 300% bonus to a single target. So every ~12 seconds (again, assuming max stacks) Judgement will hit a single target for a little more than double what Wake of Ashes would hit ALL targets for every 45s, or about 3x the damage Consecrate would do to ALL enemies in range, again to a single target, but all the while not generating the HoPo that either WoA or Consecrate do. That being said, you could argue DJ is a little better than its competitors on fewer targets, but TV will never come remotely close to capping DJ stacks, DS is now only good on 3+ targets, and on 2 targets with DS you'd be lucky to hit 6 stacks before Judgment comes off CD, and still lose out on HoPo.

Now again, if it was baseline, it would just be a nice little bonus and slightly increase our niche priority target thing, as well as making Divine Purpose a more appealing choice. As it stands, Ret has ONE baseline offensive passive in BFA: Art of War.

There's probably a few things they could do to improve it:

* Have Divine Judgment make Judgement itself cleave like Greater Judgement did (without the auto-Crit above 50% target HP, that would be overpowered and a threat nightmare) - This would basically just create some play between Judgement and Divine Storm in AOE scenarios: Fit as many Divine Storms in between Judgement CDs as you can, buffing Judgement to the cap which would then hit ~4 targets for big Greater Judgement style hit, as well as applying the Judgment debuff to those targets which would increase the damage of your next Divine Storm. Nice little back-and-forth and a play on the Builder->spender design. I think that'd be a pretty decent fix to our AOE, again as well as promoting use of talents like Divine Purpose (and maybe FoJ?). Now this would be a HUGE buff to the talent, but for balancing you could either lower the bonus damage per stack, and/or make the stacks slightly RNG: each enemy hit has a 75%(?) chance to grant the stack; etc. I'd say keep the max stacks at 15 as that feels like an appropriate/reasonable number given Judgment's CD.

* Make the stacks based on HoPo spent, not targets hit; give it the Fist of Justice treatment. The "targets hit" thing feels like bait to get us to think it's a good talent for AOE. This would fix the lack of synergy it has with TV/ES and make it appealing for single target, but wouldn't fix the loss of HoPo gen from Consecration/WoA. In order to compensate, you could increase the damage per stack, effectively turning Judgement into the smash attack it deserves to be, although this could become a problem in PVP.

* Baseline it and replace with something better

* Replace it with Hammer of Reckoning or Divine Punisher from the PVP tree, giggidy

Edit: My latest grievance is that I just noticed Hammer of Justice and Execution Sentence have the same animation. This is a travesty.
06/28/2018 05:18 PMPosted by Beraht
06/28/2018 04:59 PMPosted by Sharrow
Not in most times and places, unless it was a very formal joust. Otherwise it's called "good tactics".


In the Paladin tradition, it would be known as dishonorable. In fact, under AD&D 2nd rules, you'd probably lose your powers temporarily and have to atone for such an act by following the guidance of a level 7+ Cleric.
Rubbish. Paladins were allowed to use any weapon and any type of armour in AD&D2. There was no restriction on using ranged weapons, and they could be just as good with a bow as any other non-fighter (as in AD&D2 only fighters could specialise). Not that WoW Paladins are AD&D2 Paladins.
06/28/2018 05:42 PMPosted by Beraht

Actually look at a log of GBoW before stating numbers on it.
I did. Then I checked a Shaman's innate mana regeneration. That's how I know that they regen 44K mp5, and GBoW grants 5.5K mp5. The great majority of mana regeneration comes from innate regen.
06/28/2018 07:24 PMPosted by Kaisarios
06/28/2018 06:43 PMPosted by Erriden
Divine Judgment


I HATE that talent. It makes zero sense from a Ret gameplay perspective.. Who the heck thought that was a good idea to implement...


Probably the same genius who implemented the new Zeal.
06/28/2018 08:52 PMPosted by Sharrow
I did. Then I checked a Shaman's innate mana regeneration. That's how I know that they regen 44K mp5, and GBoW grants 5.5K mp5. The great majority of mana regeneration comes from innate regen.


You're literally ignoring numbers from a log showing you your "8.8% of total mana for 5 minutes" was completely wrong and simply repeat your wrong information.

Tell me why I should take anything you say seriously ? Objective numbers trump your "feels".
06/28/2018 07:36 PMPosted by Beraht
It makes zero sense where it's placed in the talents either. Row of 6 AoE HoPo generators... with a ST damage increase that generates no Holy Power...

I honestly hope it sims bad, is a dead talent and gets replaced with 8.1 with something that's AoE and impacts HoPo generation so that the row becomes entirely a playstyle choice.
I think if Divine Judgment was replaced with a Greater Judgment that also reduced the CD of Judgment, it would fit perfectly in that row.

So like 2 seconds off Judgment CD + Auto crit above 50% + hits 4 targets and spreads the debuff for a stronger Divine Storm hit. (Is that too strong? lol)

Gives it the increased holy power generation like Cons and Wake, cleave like Cons and Wake, and a single target benefit like Cons and Wake. It's also fairly passive so it fits as a left column talent.
06/29/2018 12:32 PMPosted by Lunavale
So like 2 seconds off Judgment CD + Auto crit above 50% + hits 4 targets and spreads the debuff for a stronger Divine Storm hit. (Is that too strong? lol)


That would only increase AoE to 4 targets though.

I'd bring the Legion Beta talent, Mass Judgment, back, if we're doing something with Judgment.

Basically, make Judgment an AoE, debuffing all targets for the next Divine Storm. There's probably a way to tune that to not be massively OP.
06/28/2018 09:27 AMPosted by Ahron
Then competitive groups start cycling deaths and battle rezzes around buffing the whole party. They would have to balance us around it at that point because a mini-Bloodlust for the entire party is also bonkers. The nature of the competitive community makes it so that anything that can give an edge (i.e. damage/throughput/uptime) will be used in a controllable manner whenever possible, even if the intention is flavor.

While I like ideas that give Ret more identity (which I think yours does), something like what you describe could never exist as flavor if it provides a damage/amp of some kind, and even if it wasn't flavor, an ally dying as a mechanic means force certain requirements on groups and involves one person potentially sacrificing their fun in order to use it.


I was just spit-balling ideas, but that's a fair point. So instead how about something like this:

Retribution Aura - 3 min CD
Paladin extends his holy energies to engulf one group member who is below 40% life, preventing a killing blow in the next 6 seconds. If a killing blow is prevented, then the paladin turns into an holy avatar and radiates Retribution Aura for X seconds.

Ret Aura can be a flat damage/healing increase, stat boost, a boost to resource regeneration, or any other offensive buff. Gaining Ret Aura will also give you the Avenged debuff, preventing you from benefiting from it again for 3 minutes (to prevent abusing with multiple Rets).
The trick will be tuning the output value of this buff.

I know people will still be able to cheese this but at least it will require some coordination. During progression it'll be more valuable to actually use it to save people and I don't think it's harmful to have a small offensive buff on a 3min CD for farm content, that also requires coordination with a possibility of death.

Not perfect, but it sort of combines the Ret theme with BoSac I think. Feel free to iterate.
06/28/2018 05:22 PMPosted by Ahron
That said, here's a hot take on an interesting idea I had just now: Glyph of the Exorcist - Replaces Templar's Verdict with Divine Smite. Templar's Verdict is replaced by Exorcism visually (but not mechanically) with an upgraded animation (ideally at the level of quality of Final Verdict). It wouldn't be ranged, but it would have the same idea of Cleric-style Holy Bolt ability.


Having the visual option would be great and would make a lot of people happy I think. But given how pruned and bland Ret has become, return of Exo as a separate ability is an opportunity to add another layer of complexity to the spec.

Perhaps as an ability that's only usable for a short time following the use of a spender. It can be a true holy nuke, a buff that increases the chance of our procs, or have a DoT component that debuffs enemies.

It could use a damage formula similar to that of Breath of Sindragosa to make it usable in multi target without making it spin out of control.

There's really so much they could do with it since baseline Ret right now doesn't really have a core mechanic beyond get HP, spend HP.
06/29/2018 03:31 PMPosted by Tbolt
Perhaps as an ability that's only usable for a short time following the use of a spender. It can be a true holy nuke, a buff that increases the chance of our procs, or have a DoT component that debuffs enemies.


Ooh, somewhat similar to whirling dragon punch on windwalker.

I wouldnt mind exo returning alongside BoJ, I never liked BoJs animation and sound but i can tolerate it.

People think adding abilities will cause button bloat, but honestly since wod we've lost so many rotational abilities we could gain 2-3 more and still be feel fine.
06/29/2018 03:24 PMPosted by Tbolt
Retribution Aura - 3 min CD
Paladin extends his holy energies to engulf one group member who is below 40% life, preventing a killing blow in the next 6 seconds. If a killing blow is prevented, then the paladin turns into an holy avatar and radiates Retribution Aura for X seconds.


So toss it on someone and force them to die so the group gets the buff...

Yep, no abuse potential there.

06/29/2018 03:24 PMPosted by Tbolt
During progression it'll be more valuable to actually use it to save people


Err...

no, during progression it'll be used as a DPS cooldown for the raid.

06/29/2018 05:28 PMPosted by Ascetic
People think adding abilities will cause button bloat, but honestly since wod we've lost so many rotational abilities we could gain 2-3 more and still be feel fine.


We lost procs, not actual buttons. At some point, having buttons for buttons sake baseline is just insane. You have a plethora of buttons to choose from in the talents to make the spec almost need 2 bars of buttons if you want.

BfA already has the potentital to dwarf Mists in actual button presses through talents.
So toss it on someone and force them to die so the group gets the buff...

Yep, no abuse potential there.


It's an idea genius, meant to spark discussion and maybe mould it into something useful.

It's easy to find faults, but I've yet to see something useful come out of your many many posts that just seemed aimed at turning Ret into a 3 button spec riding a derp pony.

Also yes, as I already wrote the hard part will be the numbers tuning. It's not out of the realm of possibility to have it tuned so that at the beginning of the tier the life save is more important than the dps.

06/29/2018 05:53 PMPosted by Beraht
We lost procs, not actual buttons. At some point, having buttons for buttons sake baseline is just insane. You have a plethora of buttons to choose from in the talents to make the spec almost need 2 bars of buttons if you want.


Plethora of buttons? Where are they when we have dead spots in the rotation. Not all of us want to just press CS all the time.
06/29/2018 05:28 PMPosted by Ascetic
Ooh, somewhat similar to whirling dragon punch on windwalker.

I wouldnt mind exo returning alongside BoJ, I never liked BoJs animation and sound but i can tolerate it.


I only leveled a monk for the mage tower so I had to go look that up :)
But essentially yes. Something that's a slightly different system and is outside the HP gain/spend system. Even if they lowered the cd on other rotational skills, we'd still be able to use it since it'd be higher priority than CS. Another rotational ability with a strong identity could do a lot to make the spec more interesting.

I like BoJ (the FFT nostalgia is just too strong) but I also liked Exo. It has a place in the Ret paladin arsenal and our kit definitely has room to accommodate it, so seems like a pretty good move to me.
06/29/2018 12:12 PMPosted by Beraht
06/28/2018 08:52 PMPosted by Sharrow
I did. Then I checked a Shaman's innate mana regeneration. That's how I know that they regen 44K mp5, and GBoW grants 5.5K mp5. The great majority of mana regeneration comes from innate regen.


You're literally ignoring numbers from a log showing you your "8.8% of total mana for 5 minutes" was completely wrong and simply repeat your wrong information.

Tell me why I should take anything you say seriously ? Objective numbers trump your "feels".
That log you linked does not include the character's innate regen. The fight is 7m 15s long, and in that time a resto shaman regenerates 3.828 million mana. Add in the 1.1 million they start with and the 475.2K from GBoW isn't that much - 9.6% in fact - about the same as the 8.8% I gave for a 5 minute fight. I'm not counting Resurgence, because it's actually a rebate on the casting cost (it's just Holy Paladin's old Illumination, but rather weaker), not actual regen, and because it doesn't apply to other classes.
06/29/2018 07:19 PMPosted by Tbolt
I like BoJ (the FFT nostalgia is just too strong) but I also liked Exo. It has a place in the Ret paladin arsenal and our kit definitely has room to accommodate it, so seems like a pretty good move to me.


I never played fft, im not a big ff fan in general, so I have no emotional attachment to boj, but exorcism is hard not to love because it's an iconic ability that we've always had before. It was a stape of the ret paladin toolkit
Woa, this bad boy's almost off the front page.

Common sense (imo) changes

1) Reduce Judgment to a 7.5 sec CD or CS to a 4.5 sec CD to close gaps in the rotation. We know these gaps are intentional, but many of us hate them and so we'll continue to make these suggestions until our dying breath.

2) Delete Kings because it's practically worthless and Seph has stated that the devs don't want to buff it because they don't want Ret to have this sort of utility. This is ability bloat at its finest.

3) If Wisdom remains, I suggest doubling its effect to make it very noticeable. This is the only way I can think of to make an ability so inherently boring somewhat exciting.

4) Otherwise, delete Wisdom and do something interesting with that freed up design space. Raid buff / make regular blessings less situational in PvE / improve our mobility a little bit...the possibilities are endless.

5) Eye for an Eye is so obviously not useful in PvE: make it a PvP talent!

6) Do the opposite with Unbound Freedom. It has questionable use in PvP but would be loads of fun in PvE. See, common sense changes, aren't they great!

7) Selfless Healer is a very fun mechanic that I'd love to use, but I'm having trouble justifying it over Word of Glory. If it also reduced FoL's mana cost by 25% per stack that'd go a long way.

8) Very minor suggestion, but I feel WoG is trying to do too much by having a long cooldown and a holy power cost and two charges. I think it should have a 1 min CD and that's it - no charges and no holy power cost. If it ever felt too strong or too weak you could easily tweak the cooldown one way or the other.

9) Minor bugs: greater blessings have a 30 yd range (this type of ability always has a 40 yd range) and WoG's animation is always on the paladin no matter who you cast it on (this is a holdover from when WoG could only be self-cast).
06/28/2018 05:22 PMPosted by Ahron
06/28/2018 05:13 PMPosted by Churchmouse
What did I like about Exo? It was the one ability Ret had where your character put down his sword, stuck out his hand, and nonchalantly blasted the target with direct holy magic. The rest of the time we ran around swinging a massive surely-you're-overcompensating-for-something 2H weapon and engaging in various hammer related activities.

So, the vast majority of the time Ret walks around asking everyone whether or not they even lift, but that single ability where we used direct, shapeless holy energy to smite a target apparently was not in keeping with some people's objectively correct view of what a paladin is and isn't. We must show an absolute minimum of our cleric roots because we're knights, bro.

All of this sarcasm is coming from someone who enjoys Blade of Justice, btw. I just think it's ridiculous when people get so caught up on their vision that they leave no room for other interpretations.


I think it's fair, and I said earlier, I'm OK with the theming of it--just not sacrificing a more mechanically sound ability.

That said, here's a hot take on an interesting idea I had just now: Glyph of the Exorcist - Replaces Templar's Verdict with Divine Smite. Templar's Verdict is replaced by Exorcism visually (but not mechanically) with an upgraded animation (ideally at the level of quality of Final Verdict). It wouldn't be ranged, but it would have the same idea of Cleric-style Holy Bolt ability.


Why would you rather visually replace Templar's Verdict over Blade of Justice? Templar's Verdict is the coolest melee strike we've ever had, I love how it flashes wings and generates such a tremendous slash of holy energy that it looks like it's ripping the target in half. I'd rather have the option to get rid of the Blade of Justice visual since I think it looks weird as a paladin who favors hammers. Plus, a glyph converting BoJ to Exorcism or something like it makes more sense when you consider that BoJ and Exorcism aren't melee-range abilities.
Coolest melee strike?

Final Verdict would like a word with you
07/01/2018 01:21 PMPosted by Kratus
Why would you rather visually replace Templar's Verdict over Blade of Justice? Templar's Verdict is the coolest melee strike we've ever had
07/01/2018 01:30 PMPosted by Tenacius
Coolest melee strike?

Final Verdict would like a word with you
For those who aren't aware, here is a video of Final Verdict (no sound -- this was beta footage of WoD):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xchHog0d2tA&t=1m39s

Paladins being somewhat heavy mace favoring (iirc) comes from D&D and other similar fantasy settings in that bludgeoning weapons were the ideal choice against Undead (particularly skeletons). In WoW, Paladins can use Swords, Maces (i.e. Hammers), Axes, and Polearms, so having a bit of variety to reflect our capabilities is nice. Hell, Ashbringer, the most legendary Paladin weapon, is a sword rather than a mace/hammer.

If anything, I'd rather campaign for Templar's Verdict to use the Final Verdict animation by default, and then having glyph options to change it to other weapons. Imagine being able to choose from (a) slamming a hammer from behind you, (b) dropping a sword from the sky at an angle, (c) swinging an axe around the side, (d) thrusting forward with a polearm/spear/pike, or (e) bringing down a divine pillar of raw, smiting holy fire.

I argue further that TV is the ideal choice to have different forms. Outside of FV, It's never been presented as a particular weapon choice like BoJ and HoW, and it is the ultimate expression of our Holy Power (i.e. our spender, our big hitter)--it should in fact be a personal choice in how we ultimate deliver the Holy Light. And it being Holy damage means that it should be able to take on the form of literally any form of weapon we choose--even an Smite/Exorcism-style ability (i.e. raw Holy Light), for those who prefer that theme. Being able to glyph it and change the visual allows us to make it our own personal representation of how we wield Divine Fury.

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