Retribution Downtimes and Talents

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06/08/2018 05:47 PMPosted by Seph
Hey all,

Since the first round of changes to Retribution early on in alpha, we've been letting the spec settle into a steady-state, but have been very much keeping it in mind. Like many have suggested, the spec is almost all the way there, but is missing a little bit baseline.


PS.

that "little bit baseline" includes Raid Buffs, group utility and our little pony, right? :D

(Just make a speed of light glyph for us PvPing Cows....)
Our AoE is in a terrible place right now, why did you guys remove Divine Hammer? I am starting to think Blizzard has no idea how bad our AoE is at the moment. We don't seem to be getting info on the serious problems, and the lack of AoE is a serious concern, please tell me why Divine Hammer Was removed and why it was so game breaking it had to be removed.
its lit
06/08/2018 06:22 PMPosted by Shyja
06/08/2018 06:19 PMPosted by Dazanna
...

I doubt they would do that for the simple fact that it allows 2 TV's in a row, which could potentially cause issues for PVP tuning (pretty big burst potential).

I don’t see this as an issue big enough that they couldn’t balance around. The talent that gives free HP spenders already does this, you can go 3-4 TV in a row, all based on luck, and it doesn’t break the game so far.


I kind of agree, that being said build power at ranged via judgement if your waiting for them to come to you or whatever is kind of nice but also kind of lame.
06/08/2018 05:47 PMPosted by Seph
Hey all,

Since the first round of changes to Retribution early on in alpha, we've been letting the spec settle into a steady-state, but have been very much keeping it in mind. Like many have suggested, the spec is almost all the way there, but is missing a little bit baseline.


Like the Leap that every Paladin hero has? Hmmmm!? Love the changes by the way.
06/08/2018 06:22 PMPosted by Shyja
...
I don’t see this as an issue big enough that they couldn’t balance around. The talent that gives free HP spenders already does this, you can go 3-4 TV in a row, all based on luck, and it doesn’t break the game so far.

I think it’s awesome lol. Getting dragged across the floor is humiliating. Poke and heal like a boss until they over extend. That’s fun to me.

I kind of agree, that being said build power at ranged via judgement if your waiting for them to come to you or whatever is kind of nice but also kind of lame.
I just feel like there is nothing fun or interesting about Ret Paladins at the moment. I have played a Ret for years and this is the most bored I have ever been with it.

They are slow, have significant ramp up time and bring nothing unique to Melee DPS. Their talent tree is underwhelming and really doesn't offer too much of a possibility of significantly altering play styles. Rets just feel like a weak Arms warrior minus the charge and heroic leap...

For the life of me, I just cant figure out why Bliz refuses to give Rets any real mobility skills outside of a cheesy feeling cavalier. I don't know, maybe its just me.
I just feel like there is nothing fun or interesting about Ret Paladins at the moment. I have played a Ret for years and this is the most bored I have been with it ever.

They are slow, have significant ramp up time and bring nothing unique to Melee DPS. Their talent tree is underwhelming and really doesn't offer too much of a possibility of significantly altering play styles. Rets just feel like a weak Arms warrior minus the charge and heroic leap...

I don't know, maybe its just me.


That's because Ret is lacking it's flavor niche. It's been that way since Legion, to be honest.

We're a dps spec, but nothing exciting to offer the group outside of it, and filling no niche role.

Warriors are dps spec but tanky and slightly mobile, DHs are a melee spec but extremely mobile, and DKs are walking death balls of slows, pets and diseases. The classes all have great identities, but Ret really doesn't.

Our healing hasn't been to relevant since Cata days and we have no unique buffs that Prot and Holy don't also bring. Our mobility isn't that strong and there's just nothing there.

If our FoL gets buffed like crazy, and shamans and monks nerfed, then maybe will will have more value, but in PvE, being a "good off healer" kindof sucks when you're a dps spec.

Paladins need another buff, and GBoW and GBoK ain't doin' it.

06/08/2018 06:41 PMPosted by Nikolaos
Their talent tree is underwhelming and really doesn't offer too much of a possibility of significantly altering play styles.


The talent tree does, it's just more builds than stand alone options. I'm not sure if a lot of classes are like this or not, but the Ret talent tree revolves around having a number of build options.

It's hard to justify going HoW and Inquisition, because Crusade is just better for that HoW ability. It's hard to go zeal, but not take BoW, since BoW works off auto attacks.

It's more like multiple builds, then free lance talents.

Fast Attacking- More Passive=
Zeal and BoW synergize very well together and power an Inquisition build.

Burst Window Warrior =
Execution Sentence, HoW and Crusade go very well together and work off one another very well.

Procs on Procs=
Divine Purpose and almost everything go together well too.

The talents alone are pretty boring, especially tier 100, but when you build a certain way, you can have a lot of things work together very fluidly.
Interesting changes.

Instead of just moving DP's proc chance, would it be possible to move it to a PPM system, so that it has less streaks both of no-procs and of procs ? The % damage gain on finishers with DP was quite a long time in the coming and does make for interesting gameplay. Will definately synergize well with Righteous Verdict for single target.

Blade of Wrath baseline is a nice addition, glad you picked that as its proc is just "right" for baseline, not too streaky, not too rare. The new talent replacing it is definately interesting for those who want to further push the reactionary gameplay of procs.

That said, I'm unsure if this will be enough to address the nerf to the cooldown of Crusader Strike. I still feel we might need to move that up a bit. Though I'll definately have to test the new feel of the class.

Addressing some mobility concerns like you did with Death Knights would be appreciated.

Finally, L60 remains of some concern. Divine Judgment being a poor pick for the row in general (doesn't fit the overall theme) and Consecrate having the mobility issues you fixed for Prot/Holy.
06/08/2018 06:58 PMPosted by Zaim
We're a dps spec, but nothing exciting to offer the group outside of it, and filling no niche role.

Warriors are dps spec but tanky and slightly mobile, DHs are a melee spec but extremely mobile, and DKs are walking death balls of slows, pets and diseases. The classes all have great identities, but Ret really doesn't.

Our healing hasn't been to relevant since Cata days and we have no unique buffs that Prot and Holy don't also bring. Our mobility isn't that strong and there's just nothing there.

If our FoL gets buffed like crazy, and shamans and monks nerfed, then maybe will will have more value, but in PvE, being a "good off healer" kindof sucks when you're a dps spec.


We definitely could use an offensive utility in PvE group play. A dps spec that is name Retribution should not be standing in the corner throwing out heals. Not in the current design at least. No one has said let's bring that Ret for his off-healing in a long time...

For PVP Ret's off-healing was great in Cata, back when we had Sacred Shield and its interaction with WoG. It actually allowed you to support your team until it was time to go on the offensive. It was unfortunate that it was taken away.
06/08/2018 05:47 PMPosted by Seph
Hey all,

Since the first round of changes to Retribution early on in alpha, we've been letting the spec settle into a steady-state, but have been very much keeping it in mind. Like many have suggested, the spec is almost all the way there, but is missing a little bit baseline.

Blade of Wrath
Blade of Wrath's mechanic is becoming baseline, named Art of War: Your auto attacks have a chance to reset the cooldown of Blade of Justice. Any many correctly pointed out, this is a sort of unpredictability that the spec needed in its baseline rotation.

Blade of Wrath, the talent, will now increase the frequency of Art of War resets and cause its proc to also increase the damage of the next Blade of Justice by 25%. Numbers are pending tuning, but the gameplay is there.

Divine Purpose
Divine Purpose's proc chance has been reduced to 15% (down from 20%), but it now also increases the damage and healing of that free Holy Power spender by 20%.

The entire value of this talent was in the free Holy Power proc, which is a huge swing on button presses and pacing, but which neither of its talent match-ups provide. This change reduces that difference slightly and gives Divine Purpose a little more nuance to its gameplay – now you may consider saving or waiting for that proc to use on a different Holy Power spender from usual.

Thanks for the patience and continued feedback.

Awesome to hear the BoW mechanic is going to be baseline. The change to Divine Purpose sounds interesting. A little afraid it might feel punishing to take on shorter fights, but the increased damage on the next HP spender is a nice touch. Will there by chance be any touches on divine judgement? Also, will there any potential changes to our mobility in general?
Because unpeelable wings would be ridiculous in PvP for one.
06/08/2018 05:47 PMPosted by Seph
Hey all,

Since the first round of changes to Retribution early on in alpha, we've been letting the spec settle into a steady-state, but have been very much keeping it in mind. Like many have suggested, the spec is almost all the way there, but is missing a little bit baseline.

Blade of Wrath
Blade of Wrath's mechanic is becoming baseline, named Art of War: Your auto attacks have a chance to reset the cooldown of Blade of Justice. Any many correctly pointed out, this is a sort of unpredictability that the spec needed in its baseline rotation.

Blade of Wrath, the talent, will now increase the frequency of Art of War resets and cause its proc to also increase the damage of the next Blade of Justice by 25%. Numbers are pending tuning, but the gameplay is there.

Divine Purpose
Divine Purpose's proc chance has been reduced to 15% (down from 20%), but it now also increases the damage and healing of that free Holy Power spender by 20%.

The entire value of this talent was in the free Holy Power proc, which is a huge swing on button presses and pacing, but which neither of its talent match-ups provide. This change reduces that difference slightly and gives Divine Purpose a little more nuance to its gameplay – now you may consider saving or waiting for that proc to use on a different Holy Power spender from usual.

Thanks for the patience and continued feedback.


Seph is the best!
Nice changes but getting some sort of aoe back would be nice. No idea why Divine Hammers was taken out. Feels pretty lame having to use single target abilities to build up for aoe. =/
06/08/2018 05:47 PMPosted by Seph

Blade of Wrath
Blade of Wrath's mechanic is becoming baseline, named Art of War: Your auto attacks have a chance to reset the cooldown of Blade of Justice. Any many correctly pointed out, this is a sort of unpredictability that the spec needed in its baseline rotation.

Blade of Wrath, the talent, will now increase the frequency of Art of War resets and cause its proc to also increase the damage of the next Blade of Justice by 25%. Numbers are pending tuning, but the gameplay is there.

One step forward and no steps back yet, which is weird when it comes to Ret. A lot of ground to cover still though.

AoW should be baseline with it's current proc rate. BoW could be used to address two issues with Ret right now, identity and mobility. Replace the talent with Exorcism, functions the same as BoW and is reset by AoW procs but has a 30 yd range with the old animation.

I may not fit the theme of the talent row being extra holy power but it wouldn't be the first time there's an outlier talent in a row. It would still be extra HP for PvP at least and in PvE in some fights where you have to stay out of range for some time. But most importantly it would bring back some identity and flavor to the spec.

On unrelated news; Blessing of Sac for PvP talents? Pretty please?
06/08/2018 06:23 PMPosted by Zaim

The tier 100 talents alone don't feel all that great. Crusade without HoW is just passive +damage, Inquisition is just a finisher you push every 45 seconds. No numbers pop up. Divine Purpose now having a 5% less chance to proc can make it feel pretty bad, especially on some shorter fights.

I like this in theory, but it feels like you'll become either a lucky God, doing 20% more damage every other TV, or be the unluckiest person in the game and just feel like it's a wasted talent. Varying length of fights of course.

It multiples the value of JV and WoG by a lot, making Selfless Healer even more undesirable. And could also lead into ES being the best tier 15 talent, if you "saved" or got a DP every 20 seconds.

I think it'll just swing to many other talents into having to spec into DP.
It's also a nerf to the talent overall. 15% proc rate is 0.75 of 20%. +20% damage/healing means the overall value of the talent will be 0.75 x 1.2 = 0.9 -> 90% of the current version. More interesting, but less powerful unless you play better after than before.

That said, at least it's interesting.

I approve of BoW going baseline, too.
06/08/2018 08:35 PMPosted by Sharrow
06/08/2018 06:23 PMPosted by Zaim

The tier 100 talents alone don't feel all that great. Crusade without HoW is just passive +damage, Inquisition is just a finisher you push every 45 seconds. No numbers pop up. Divine Purpose now having a 5% less chance to proc can make it feel pretty bad, especially on some shorter fights.

I like this in theory, but it feels like you'll become either a lucky God, doing 20% more damage every other TV, or be the unluckiest person in the game and just feel like it's a wasted talent. Varying length of fights of course.

It multiples the value of JV and WoG by a lot, making Selfless Healer even more undesirable. And could also lead into ES being the best tier 15 talent, if you "saved" or got a DP every 20 seconds.

I think it'll just swing to many other talents into having to spec into DP.
It's also a nerf to the talent overall. 15% proc rate is 0.75 of 20%. +20% damage/healing means the overall value of the talent will be 0.75 x 1.2 = 0.9 -> 90% of the current version. More interesting, but less powerful unless you play better after than before.

That said, at least it's interesting.

I approve of BoW going baseline, too.

Not entirely one-to-one math, actually, because of the moment you take advantage of the buff, if you were GCD locked, you’re actually getting a net benefit there too. Overall, i’d say it’s pretty close.
Real questions: will Art of War proc baseline at the same rate that Blade of Wrath does now?
06/08/2018 08:54 PMPosted by Goo
Real questions: will Art of War proc baseline at the same rate that Blade of Wrath does now?


It'll probably drop to 2.5 procs per min. With BoW increasing it up to 4.5, keeping in mind it'll also do more damage.

Hopefully more damage will get shifted around so these procs aren't doing the same damage as TVs though.
06/08/2018 05:47 PMPosted by Seph
Hey all,

Since the first round of changes to Retribution early on in alpha, we've been letting the spec settle into a steady-state, but have been very much keeping it in mind. Like many have suggested, the spec is almost all the way there, but is missing a little bit baseline.

Blade of Wrath
Blade of Wrath's mechanic is becoming baseline, named Art of War: Your auto attacks have a chance to reset the cooldown of Blade of Justice. Any many correctly pointed out, this is a sort of unpredictability that the spec needed in its baseline rotation.

Blade of Wrath, the talent, will now increase the frequency of Art of War resets and cause its proc to also increase the damage of the next Blade of Justice by 25%. Numbers are pending tuning, but the gameplay is there.

Divine Purpose
Divine Purpose's proc chance has been reduced to 15% (down from 20%), but it now also increases the damage and healing of that free Holy Power spender by 20%.

The entire value of this talent was in the free Holy Power proc, which is a huge swing on button presses and pacing, but which neither of its talent match-ups provide. This change reduces that difference slightly and gives Divine Purpose a little more nuance to its gameplay – now you may consider saving or waiting for that proc to use on a different Holy Power spender from usual.

Thanks for the patience and continued feedback.


Excellent news. Now just rename Blade of Justice to Exorcism and we can all be happy ;) (Please, can we at least have a glyph D:)

We'll have to see how good the new blade of wrath sims, but if not we have either FoJ or HoW to fall back on.

I still agree that CS should have some of it's cd shaved back off again.

I hope the new dl will be more competitive dps wise. Currently inquisition is in the top13 simming builds for ret, and I just prefer to have a more reactionary playstyle. I'd love for DP to be viable.

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