Retribution Downtimes and Talents

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
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06/08/2018 09:12 PMPosted by Auras
Excellent news. Now just rename Blade of Justice to Exorcism and we can all be happy ;) (Please, can we at least have a glyph D:)


I'll be pretty sad if they nerf BoJ like that.
This is quite good news indeed. Glad to see Art of War back using the current BoW talent. Hoping with tuning that talent row will be decently competitive. I still really want to use HoW without it being overshadowed.

The only main concern I have left is our utility, mainly our greater blessings. Initially in legion we had 3 greater blessings. We dropped down to two blessings after might was removed (thank goodness) but the devs stated they would have a good replacement for it down the road. It never happened.

Atm the blessings feel very weak and a fragment of their identity from previous expansions. I really miss buffing the entire raid with blessings, it was iconic for our class and brought great utility. With raid buffs coming back why have these not been addressed? We have no more auras anymore and we can bless a whopping two people.

I remember when I was at Blizzcon last year they had raid buffs active for all the classes. All the paladins had devotion aura and depending on the spec they did different things from 10% extra armor to a % flat damage reduction. I truly feel if we could get raid wide blessings or having an aura to help support our raid, it would help bring back not only utility but class/spec identity to Ret!
06/08/2018 09:42 PMPosted by Arakain
This is quite good news indeed. Glad to see Art of War back using the current BoW talent. Hoping with tuning that talent row will be decently competitive. I still really want to use HoW without it being overshadowed.

The only main concern I have left is our utility, mainly our greater blessings. Initially in legion we had 3 greater blessings. We dropped down to two blessings after might was removed (thank goodness) but the devs stated they would have a good replacement for it down the road. It never happened.

Atm the blessings feel very weak and a fragment of their identity from previous expansions. I really miss buffing the entire raid with blessings, it was iconic for our class and brought great utility. With raid buffs coming back why have these not been addressed? We have no more auras anymore and we can bless a whopping two people.

I remember when I was at Blizzcon last year they had raid buffs active for all the classes. All the paladins had devotion aura and depending on the spec they did different things from 10% extra armor to a % flat damage reduction. I truly feel if we could get raid wide blessings or having an aura to help support our raid, it would help bring back not only utility but class/spec identity to Ret!


I dont care about blessings, theyre not good utility and neither is devotion aura, utility is meant to be used in situations to have a strong impact on the outcome of the fight, I.e: commanding shout, darkness, etc. What I want back for utility is blessing of sacrifice.
Awesome news
06/08/2018 09:42 PMPosted by Arakain
Atm the blessings feel very weak and a fragment of their identity from previous expansions. I really miss buffing the entire raid with blessings, it was iconic for our class and brought great utility. With raid buffs coming back why have these not been addressed? We have no more auras anymore and we can bless a whopping two people.


We said in Legion often that the way to make Blessings fun would be to make them in combat abilities that have tempoary, short term effects, but are very strong. Basically raid cooldowns.

Giving Ret 2 somewhat strong raid cooldowns would go a long way to making the class desirable, in the same vein 5% Physical damage makes a Monk mandatory.

Blessing of Kings could be a one time raid wide absorb on a 5 minute cooldown.
Blessing of Wisdom could work as a lesser old school Mass innervate (give everyone in the raid 5% of their mana back in 10 seconds) on a 2 minute cooldown
Blessing of Might could be a 15 second buff that makes everyone have their attacks do 5% extra damage as holy damage on a 2 minute cooldown (seems low, but the stacking potential raid wide might make this OP).

All these are unique in function. A cool animation could simply be the Paladin glowing Yellow, Red or Blue depending on which he activated. Heck make them all share the 2 minute cooldown, so you can't use all of them. Makes having more than 1 Ret useful, and gives choices to which to use when.

You know, fun little stuff like that you can plan for (numbers are not balanced for crap, I just threw out examples).
06/08/2018 10:05 PMPosted by Beraht
06/08/2018 09:42 PMPosted by Arakain
Atm the blessings feel very weak and a fragment of their identity from previous expansions. I really miss buffing the entire raid with blessings, it was iconic for our class and brought great utility. With raid buffs coming back why have these not been addressed? We have no more auras anymore and we can bless a whopping two people.


We said in Legion often that the way to make Blessings fun would be to make them in combat abilities that have tempoary, short term effects, but are very strong. Basically raid cooldowns.

Giving Ret 2 somewhat strong raid cooldowns would go a long way to making the class desirable, in the same vein 5% Physical damage makes a Monk mandatory.

Blessing of Kings could be a one time raid wide absorb on a 5 minute cooldown.
Blessing of Wisdom could work as a lesser old school Mass innervate (give everyone in the raid 5% of their mana back in 10 seconds) on a 2 minute cooldown
Blessing of Might could be a 15 second buff that makes everyone have their attacks do 5% extra damage as holy damage on a 2 minute cooldown (seems low, but the stacking potential raid wide might make this OP).

All these are unique in function. A cool animation could simply be the Paladin glowing Yellow, Red or Blue depending on which he activated. Heck make them all share the 2 minute cooldown, so you can't use all of them. Makes having more than 1 Ret useful, and gives choices to which to use when.

You know, fun little stuff like that you can plan for (numbers are not balanced for crap, I just threw out examples).


Yeah those are some pretty neat ideas. I think I remember them being talked about during Legion alpha on the forums. Would be a great way to give the iconic blessings back but providing choice during a fight to give your team the right support it needs!
06/08/2018 09:42 PMPosted by Arakain
This is quite good news indeed. Glad to see Art of War back using the current BoW talent. Hoping with tuning that talent row will be decently competitive. I still really want to use HoW without it being overshadowed.

The only main concern I have left is our utility, mainly our greater blessings. Initially in legion we had 3 greater blessings. We dropped down to two blessings after might was removed (thank goodness) but the devs stated they would have a good replacement for it down the road. It never happened.

Atm the blessings feel very weak and a fragment of their identity from previous expansions. I really miss buffing the entire raid with blessings, it was iconic for our class and brought great utility. With raid buffs coming back why have these not been addressed? We have no more auras anymore and we can bless a whopping two people.

I remember when I was at Blizzcon last year they had raid buffs active for all the classes. All the paladins had devotion aura and depending on the spec they did different things from 10% extra armor to a % flat damage reduction. I truly feel if we could get raid wide blessings or having an aura to help support our raid, it would help bring back not only utility but class/spec identity to Ret!


The greater blessings are horrible. I have no idea why they're tuned so oddly. If they applied to a whole group, they'd make more sense.
06/08/2018 09:53 PMPosted by Auras
I dont care about blessings, theyre not good utility and neither is devotion aura, utility is meant to be used in situations to have a strong impact on the outcome of the fight, I.e: commanding shout, darkness, etc. What I want back for utility is blessing of sacrifice.


Greater Blessings need to change just as much as paladins need more active group utility.

Blessing of Sacrifice is not the answer. Not only do Holy and Prot have this ability, which fits their spec well, but it's just adding more single target utility into paladins.

LoH, BoF, BoP, FoL, and Cleanse are plenty, *plenty*, of single target defensive utility. Ret needs something to differ itself from Holy and Prot and to further move it into an offensive spec.

Additionally, Monk Utility is creeping onto Ret paladin's pretty hard.

Tiger's lust = BoF
Ring of Peace = BoP
Paralysis = Repent
Leg Sweep = HoJ
Detox = Cleanse
Infuse = FoL

As for greater blessings, yes GBoW is a decent buff, but it isn't fun nor is it group effecting which is lame coming into BFA, with everyone else having AoE buffs.

Warriors - Battle Shout:
Arms/Fury Warrior = 10% AP
Prot Warrior = 2% Parry

Druids - Mark of the Wild:
Feral/Boomkin = Nature Damage on Hit
Guardian = 2% dodge
Resto = 2% HP/15 sec

Priest - Fortitude:
Disc/Holy = 10% HP
Shadow = Shadow Damage on hit

Mage - Arcane Intellact:
Arcane/fire/mage = 10% Int

Paladins - Blessing of Wisdom/Might/Kings:
Holy = 2% Mana/15sec
Prot = 2% Armor
Ret = Holy damage on hit

Shamans and Hunters - Bloodlust:
Enhance/resto/ele = lust
MM/BM/Surv = lust

Death Knights - Horn of Winter:
Blood = 2% parry
Unholy/Frost = Frost damage on hit

Demon Hunters - Demonic Spite:
Vengeance - 2% Dodge Aura
Havoc - 5% magic damage debuff

Monks - Way of the Monkey:
Brewmaster - 2% Armor Aura
Windwalker - 5% phsyical debuff
Mistweaver - 1% mana/life every 15 secds

Rogue - Poison Coating:
Attacks deal poison damage to the target

Warlock - Brimstone:
Attacks deal fire damage to the target
Hey Seph, these are truly great changes, but would you check out a few more things for us before the expansion launches?

- What's the PPM of Art of War? How about Blade of Wrath?

- Divine Judgment adds no globals, resources, or even haste to the rotation. Doesn't tier 60 have that same problem you're trying to solve in tiers 30 and 100 where talents provide very different swings in terms of pacing?

- You already addressed some of our pacing problems, but Judgment still feels very wrong to me. Why does it hit so hard - it deals more damage than Hammer of Wrath. The cooldown is so long that the debuff is purely flavor rather than a mechanic we're supposed to manage at all. And lastly, there are several Judgment related talents including Selfless Healer, Lawbringer, and Divine Punisher that I'll never use with Judgment on a 12 sec CD.

- I'm almost willing to consider Consecration over Wake of Ashes.

- Some of us don't like Divine Steed, and personally I'm a little jealous of the mobility changes death knights got a few weeks back. Has there been any thought of moving Steed to the talent tree and giving Ret something else baseline?

- Greater blessings are super uninvolved and Kings is just bad. Are we stuck with them for another expansion?
Here are some relatively minor suggestions that I'd like to get off my chest. Eye for an Eye should be a PvP talent because unavoidable physical damage is rare in PvE - think of all the cool utility that could go in this slot. Justicar's Vengeance should either cost 3 holy power (and do a little less damage in relation to TV) so that it doesn't require Divine Purpose procs to be worthwhile, or simply be free following a KB.

Have you ever considered reducing Blinding Light's CD by 30 sec and duration by 2 sec? It'd be interesting in PvP if it lined up with Hammer of Justice. Inquisition > Wings feels bad because it's back to back globals of not doing anything, but I'm not sure how to solve this.

If we're stuck with Divine Steed, would you please consider baking Escape Artist into it so that in PvP we're not forced to also blow Freedom every single time? It's incredibly telegraphed and feels bad to spend two globals to accomplish one thing. This wouldn't be OP in any way with Steed on a 1 min CD.

Divine Storm called and it wants its WotLK animation back (the lightning aftereffect had that D3 crusader vibe to it). And why does the Ret passive we get when an ally dies have no animation? It exists because the devs think it provides great flavor, so much so that it's now listed as one of the select spells on our specialization page, and yet we barely even notice when it happens!

And that concludes my list of minor complaints.
06/08/2018 11:02 PMPosted by Churchmouse
Divine Storm called and it wants its WotLK animation back (the lightning aftereffect had that D3 crusader vibe to it).


This. 100% This.

Obligatory link reminding people what it looked like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnJwIDU2UL8
06/08/2018 05:47 PMPosted by Seph
Hey all,

Since the first round of changes to Retribution early on in alpha, we've been letting the spec settle into a steady-state, but have been very much keeping it in mind. Like many have suggested, the spec is almost all the way there, but is missing a little bit baseline.

Blade of Wrath
Blade of Wrath's mechanic is becoming baseline, named Art of War: Your auto attacks have a chance to reset the cooldown of Blade of Justice. Any many correctly pointed out, this is a sort of unpredictability that the spec needed in its baseline rotation.

Blade of Wrath, the talent, will now increase the frequency of Art of War resets and cause its proc to also increase the damage of the next Blade of Justice by 25%. Numbers are pending tuning, but the gameplay is there.

Divine Purpose
Divine Purpose's proc chance has been reduced to 15% (down from 20%), but it now also increases the damage and healing of that free Holy Power spender by 20%.

The entire value of this talent was in the free Holy Power proc, which is a huge swing on button presses and pacing, but which neither of its talent match-ups provide. This change reduces that difference slightly and gives Divine Purpose a little more nuance to its gameplay – now you may consider saving or waiting for that proc to use on a different Holy Power spender from usual.

Thanks for the patience and continued feedback.


This was one of several options I had in mind to make the spec a bit more fluid, so that's great to see.

With this in mind I'll be looking forward to testing it and giving some results.
I wish they woul give Seraphim to Ret as well, the spell looks cool.
Blade of Wrath change alrdy made ret more fun for me thnx

Is there option that we get Divine Tempest from out artifact??Right now our aoe withhout is rly bad, And DT was rly fun something to think about before we use.In pvp was good when we get kitted we could use that for dmg and in pve too.

It just feels rly bad too loose it for me its rly ret abilty. and togther with WOTLK animation would be awsome
06/08/2018 11:02 PMPosted by Churchmouse
Divine Storm called and it wants its WotLK animation back (the lightning aftereffect had that D3 crusader vibe to it).
Mmmmm yes please that animation was awesome
06/08/2018 11:02 PMPosted by Churchmouse
And why does the Ret passive we get when an ally dies have no animation? It exists because the devs think it provides great flavor, so much so that it's now listed as one of the select spells on our specialization page, and yet we barely even notice when it happens!


I would prefer it didn't exist. It makes it really difficult to measure yourself against other Rets. Moreover, some people enjoy the ladder. The severe variance the passive can cause from pull to pull (nevermind from one Ret to another) is one of the worst things about Ret.
06/09/2018 03:49 AMPosted by Alkanphell
Is there option that we get Divine Tempest from out artifact?


I miss it as well. It would be the perfect talent to replace divine judgment
With Art of War making a comeback, can we get a glyph that changes the appearance and/or name of BoJ/BoW to the older exorcism?
06/08/2018 05:47 PMPosted by Seph
Hey all
THANK YOU! I'm elated to see a response finally, and the baseline BoW/AoW sounds fantastic. I look forward to trying the Divine Purpose change because the decision between WoG vs. a finisher is interesting to me.

The spec is very much looking close to finished now, but there still a few things that really impact the feel/gameplay of the spec that I'd really like to see tackled somehow before the expansion launch.

06/08/2018 10:41 PMPosted by Churchmouse
- Divine Judgment adds no globals, resources, or even haste to the rotation. Doesn't tier 60 have that same problem you're trying to solve in tiers 30 and 100 where talents provide very different swings in terms of pacing?

- You already addressed some of our pacing problems, but Judgment still feels very wrong to me. Why does it hit so hard - it deals more damage than Hammer of Wrath. The cooldown is so long that the debuff is purely flavor rather than a mechanic we're supposed to manage at all. And lastly, there are several Judgment related talents including Selfless Healer, Lawbringer, and Divine Punisher that I'll never use with Judgment on a 12 sec CD.
I do think the cooldown feels a little long on Judgment in light of the other talents. Thinking only from experience in previous expansions, bringing the cooldown of Judgment to 9 seconds and tuning around that would probably address some of this (prior to Legion, I don't think Judgment ever had a CD longer than 10 seconds.)

Speaking on Divine Judgment in particular, I find it particularly frustrating because I really like that huge hit, but outside of boss encounters, I can't necessarily use it effectively. With trash packs, when they die too fast, I might not get a chance to use that powered up Judgment due to the CD, and if I have to run a long way to get to the next trash pack, the buff might fall off before I get to use it.

The first thing that came to mind when I was experiencing this is that Divine Judgment should also reduce the CD of Judgment per target hit, in addition to the stacking buff. It would help us make sure we could take advantage of the big hit (especially on big packs), and would also give us a HoPo increase (through more Judgments) to bring parity with the other talents.

Alternatively...
06/09/2018 03:49 AMPosted by Alkanphell
Is there option that we get Divine Tempest from out artifact??
You could replace Divine Judgment with Divine Tempest. One of the bits of feedback that slipped through my notes early on is how much I actually missed the tornado shooting forward. It changed how I approached certain packs and encounters (especially in M+) because my positioning could give me notable advantages in survival or handling mechanics. I could live without it, but this could certainly be an welcome option in the future if Divine Judgment doesn't work out.

(Continued in next post.)
(Continued from previous post.)

06/08/2018 10:41 PMPosted by Churchmouse
- Some of us don't like Divine Steed, and personally I'm a little jealous of the mobility changes death knights got a few weeks back. Has there been any thought of moving Steed to the talent tree and giving Ret something else baseline?
06/08/2018 11:02 PMPosted by Churchmouse
If we're stuck with Divine Steed, would you please consider baking Escape Artist into it so that in PvP we're not forced to also blow Freedom every single time? It's incredibly telegraphed and feels bad to spend two globals to accomplish one thing. This wouldn't be OP in any way with Steed on a 1 min CD.
I don't think the comparison to Death Knights is particularly good in this case, because even though Wraith Walk got buffed, it's a talent now. We at least still have Divine Steed baseline, which is huge in comparison. That said, I do think that one aspect of the new Wraith Walk also makes sense with Divine Steed: it should suppress movement impairments for its 3 second duration as a QoL change. This comes off as a nice compromise because it doesn't completely remove/immunize us to movement impairment effects, but let's us feel good about using Divine Steed without Blessing of Freedom.

06/08/2018 10:41 PMPosted by Churchmouse
- Greater blessings are super uninvolved and Kings is just bad. Are we stuck with them for another expansion?
Please don't let us be stuck with Greater Blessings in their current form. Aside from being super uninvolved, the "Limit 1" nature of passives like these make them feel exclusionary rather than special.

Bringing back Blessing of Sacrifice has been a common suggestion from some of us (myself included) to replace Greater Blessings. While I understand why it was removed to begin with, I wanted to highlight an interesting realization I had: preserving utility across a class (vs limiting it to certain specs) has big impact on the perception of class identity (for me at least). This is another part of why I want Blessing of Sacrifice back.

When I play a Warlock, a huge part of identifying as a Warlock is knowing I can summon, gate, soulstone, and bring cookies regardless of spec. When I play a Rogue, I can CC in and out of stealth, gouge, sprint, cloak, and heal regardless of spec. For Rogue in particular, it's interesting because some of the utility (namely: combo point stun) are themed different for each spec, but at the end of the day, I still know I have a combo point stun because I'm a Rogue.

With my Paladin, I'll use Blessing of Sacrifice as Holy and Protection, and feel like a Paladin--protecting my allies. But when I'm in Retribution and I see an opportunity to use Blessing of Sacrifice, I don't feel like that Paladin because I don't have that opportunity.

I get that you wanted to consolidate Damage Reduction cooldowns from all DPS specs onto healers/tanks to avoid issues in the past. However, because of that change, I think it could allow us to have Blessing of Sacrifice again (with tuning, of course). We would be unique in our utility as the only DPS with an external DR CD, which fits the defender/protector thematics of being a Paladin and bring parity to that utility that we as a class have identified with for so long. And like with returning Art of War to us, I think it is an easy and straightforward win for the spec.

All that said, if getting Blessing of Sacrifice back isn't possible due to possible abuses, I would instead ask that Kings and Wisdom become regular Blessings with new effects.

Our normal Blessings feel impactful and great to use because they are windowed periods of power. Using GBoW as an example, it's boring and uninteresting to just have a passive that increases mana regen, especially when it becomes impactful as fight times become shorter/farm (i.e. less time to benefit from that mana regen, which always happen due to more gear, more damage, better tactics, etc.) However, if GBoW instead functioned like Innervate, it would much more interesting; a well-timed Innervate allows a healer to go absolutely nuts with his/her strongest spells while gaining a huge chunk of mana back. This to me produces the same sort of excitement as Blessing of Sacrifice has done in the past--tactical decision-making of my utility leading to a big win/impact.

In fact, a new Blessing of Kings could be an alternative to Blessing of Sacrifice that isn't a damage reduction effect. Blessing of Kings could put a giant absorb on a target for 6 seconds, and cause them to rapidly regenerate a large amount of health while the shield holds. A well-timed use could save an ally, and it would have the flexibility that it could be used before OR after a large hit--do they need the absorb to live the first hit, or can you use it after the large hit so they can heal and not die from the subsequent hits?

(Continued in next post.)

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