Retribution Downtimes and Talents

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
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06/10/2018 01:35 PMPosted by Azraelion
Tbh they should bring Divine Tempest back in terms of AoE. It solved the issue of having to pack all of the trash mobs so densely together and added an extra punch to our rotation.


I agree, in place of divine judgment.

Also, agreed, lets get the old divie storm animation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnJwIDU2UL8
Posted by Zaim
DH: 4
(3) Baseline - Fel Rush x 2, Fel Retreat
(1) Talent - Fel Blade

You forgot Metamorphosis.

That thing can fly you half way accross the map.

You forgot DH mastery gives passive move speed and double jump glide that adds around 30% more move speed.
06/10/2018 01:44 PMPosted by Kni
You forgot DH mastery gives passive move speed and double jump glide that adds around 30% more move speed.


lol yeah, seems totally legit...
06/10/2018 01:44 PMPosted by Kni
You forgot DH mastery gives passive move speed and double jump glide that adds around 30% more move speed.


The mastery is disabled when carrying flags so I didn't mention it.
06/10/2018 01:44 PMPosted by Kni
Posted by Zaim
DH: 4
(3) Baseline - Fel Rush x 2, Fel Retreat
(1) Talent - Fel Blade

You forgot Metamorphosis.

That thing can fly you half way accross the map.

You forgot DH mastery gives passive move speed and double jump glide that adds around 30% more move speed.


lol, I honestly didn't even knew that their Mastery did that.

And here we are, unable to even get Pursuit of Justice. :(

Feelsbad

I just think it's funny that whenever you hear about paladins from Blizzard, in interviews or Blizzcon or whatever, that "Slow moving Judgernaught" is always one of their first description of the class.

It seems like their mobility is what defines a paladin... Seals, Auras, Blessings, team utility, none of that matters, but you best believe when it comes to mobility, we will make sure you are the least mobile class....
06/10/2018 05:41 PMPosted by Zaim
It seems like their mobility is what defines a paladin..


Legion Prot Paladins had it right. Baseline 45 second Divine Steed, 2 charges of Cavalier, Knight Templar for half cooldown, and then the kicker, Steed of Glory PvP talent.

Now THAT is a Mounted Knight.
06/10/2018 06:12 PMPosted by Beraht
06/10/2018 05:41 PMPosted by Zaim
It seems like their mobility is what defines a paladin..


Legion Prot Paladins had it right. Baseline 45 second Divine Steed, 2 charges of Cavalier, Knight Templar for half cooldown, and then the kicker, Steed of Glory PvP talent.

Now THAT is a Mounted Knight.


Oh yeah, it's great.

I don't like steed in the game to be honest, I thought it was a bit silly for Tank paladins to mount up, and stand still for 3 seconds, just to get 20% damage reduction. It just felt weird to see, but of all the specs, Prot really carries the ideal of being that "mounted knight" or "crusader."

It just never felt right for Holy because 90% of the time it was used to move out of something or run away. (kite) That never felt very "heroic." It's not running into battle on your trusted steed, more.... running for that scary DK.

As for Ret, it just never stuck for me, maybe it's because we have nothing to modify our steed in talents or whatever, so this mounting up, charging into battle never really came across.

I'd mount up on my Kodo for 3 seconds then it'd just disappeared... it brought no value. Often made me hit my head on a doorway, I suppose??

I get that Seals and Auras are always controversial, they didn't add a huge amount of depth to the game, but neither really does steed. At least not for Holy and Ret.

Our gap closer should be useful on it's own, like almost every other gap closer in the game, and we should have at least a talent to make it more enjoyable. Death Grip, Heroic Leap, Shaowstep, etc are all fun because it mixes up the game play, it instantly changes your position and your enemies ability to react.
06/10/2018 07:45 PMPosted by Zaim
As for Ret, it just never stuck for me, maybe it's because we have nothing to modify our steed in talents or whatever, so this mounting up, charging into battle never really came across.


So obviously we're not getting 7 seconds every 22 seconds of "Unslowable, knock back" Retribution Horse charging.

But I think there's something there. Steed of Glory mixed with Knight's Templar would be a great talent to replace Cavalier. With the new Steed CC that would give you a decent cooldown/uptime. Maybe even nerf Steed of Glory's duration increase to 2 seconds and remove the "Knockback" effect thing. So 5 seconds every 30 seconds if talented, with movement impairing immunity.

I feel that's not insane mobility and doesn't overshadow the row. Unbreakable Spirit would still have use in low mobility situations.

Or like I said before, go DK : Divine Steed as a talent, Unbound Freedom baseline.
A little off topic, but anyone notice that holy paladins now have hallowed ground as a pvp talent? With the new changes to consecration, holy paladins can clear snares around them every 4.5 seconds (actually 3.5 sec cd for mine, but thats at 111 with my raid gear, so should normalize at 120). I'm not sure if this was intentional or not, but they gave holy a mana free aoe snare cleanser/suppressor to everyone around them that's on a 4.5 second cd.
I wouldn't mind ret having consecration baseline as just a filler ability, have the current consecration talent add in damage and holy power, and then throw in hallowed ground as a pvp talent. (Would probably be kinda a bit totally op, but would bring back that unstoppable feel ret is supposed to have)
06/10/2018 08:27 PMPosted by Beraht
Or like I said before, go DK : Divine Steed as a talent, Unbound Freedom baseline.


I just don't like Unbound Freedom, or anything effecting Freedom, be part of our personal gap closing kit.

This is supposed to be our unquie utility that we offer a group. DKs have Roots and powerful aoe snares, shamans have purge and AoE stuns and snares, monks have AoE stuns and great talents like Tiger's Lust and RoP.

Our utility is really only HoJ, BoP and Freedom, and most to all classes have a stun now-a-days.

Making anything of Freedom be tied to our personal baseline movement speed is just further putting Ret behind in utility. (Especially now that BoP is a 5 min cooldown)

It's so frustrating to hit my head on door ways in PvP, or lose the buff cause mounting glitches, it's super hard for me to justify adding anything more onto Divine Steed. (Unless Blizzard scales the world up 16%)

However, if something had to be done to this stupid horse, I'd much rather have the Divine Steed be a rush forward 40 yards like Flying Serpent Kick. It's a gap closing ability that hasn't been "copied" much and could fit into the stampeding horse mentality.

Cavalier could then be changed to the Ride the Wind style talent where it has a short cooldown and buffs the movement speed of those around you.

Azerite gear is somewhat doing this, but making Steed have a shorter cooldown and Inspire those around you, increasing movement speed. =/

Divine Steed
Instant 45 sec recharge
1 Charges
Requires level 48
Charge forward at high speed for 3 sec.

If used again while active, you will end your Crusade, dealing 1500 damage to all enemies and healing all allies for 2400 within 8 yards.

Cavalier
Reduces the cooldown on Divine Steed by 20 seconds and grants all allies within 15 yards 20% movement speed for 3 seconds.

Azerite bonus changed to:
Pursuit of Justice
Your movement speed is increased by 10% of your haste.

Now we have a single 25 second cooldown gap closer, with BoF, Unbound Freedom and Pursuit of justice Azerite bonus.

(Still no where near as good as monks, who have all this plus Tiger's Lust =/)
As for new ideas, which I know won't happen in this Beta build because it's like 2 months away and nothing exciting is being done for Ret. (Oh yeah, I went there)

Baseline :

Pursuit of Justice
Instant 45 sec recharge
1 Charges
Requires Paladin
Requires level 28
Seek Retribution, becoming immune to all roots and snare effects for 3 seconds. increasing movement speed by 75%.

This is your Death's Advance/ Spirit walk copy.

Zealotry
1 min cooldown
1 Charge
Requires Retribution
Requires Level 58
Leap through the air 20 yards, striking the ground upon landing. Dealing 2000 damage to all enemies within 12 yards. Stunning all demon and undead.

This is the second baseline ability, it's nice to have but isn't super game breaking. Now that Shaman lost gust of wind, and maybe druids lost the travel form leap? It's not super common to have a "Leap Forward" type of move.

Talents:

Fanaticism
Replaces Zealotry
1 Charge - 30 yard range
1 min cooldown
Throw a Light's Hammer on the ground, all allies within 20 yards will have their movement speed increased by 20%. Pressing this button again will make you leap towards the hammer, removing the effect.

It's something.

It'll keep paladins at 2 gap closers, but bring in some team utility and a unique style of play. It may even have some use in PvP to get paladins brought to some of these RBG groups...
I'm genuinely surprised no one makes a demand for Yrel's Leap.
06/11/2018 09:49 AMPosted by Dorena
I'm genuinely surprised no one makes a demand for Yrel's Leap.


Honestly if I could we would have the leap you see with Yrel or Arator etc etc. Other paladins in lore can charge/leap and we cannot. To be blunt I think we need to have the Charge/Leap mechanic and instead of Divine Steed baseline it needs to be a refined version of Pursuit of Justice and Divine Steed a talent.

EDIT: I guess the keyword to see here is Holy "Warrrior".

Warriors will have more charge/leap options than us if this were the case, we only need the 1.
06/10/2018 10:58 PMPosted by Zaim
I just don't like Unbound Freedom, or anything effecting Freedom, be part of our personal gap closing kit.

This is supposed to be our unquie utility that we offer a group.


Oh please, be real. How often do you just self cast Blessing of Freedom ?

mmmhmmm.

Plus it would be actual group utility. You could speed up yourself or others. Double whammy. Freedom would actually have more than niche uses in PvE that way. Right now, you can count on one hand the situations in which Freedom is useful in PvE.
I think he means that he wants to be able to use freedom on other players and not be so heavily penalized for it. As it stands using freedom on someone else can be like taking yourself out of the battle completely, if someone is smart enough to snare you right after.
No matter how much extra value you attach to freedom, the majority of times it's going to be self casted, which goes against the whole idea of blessing others.
06/11/2018 08:17 PMPosted by Vaerume
I think he means that he wants to be able to use freedom on other players and not be so heavily penalized for it. As it stands using freedom on someone else can be like taking yourself out of the battle completely, if someone is smart enough to snare you right after.


So this is not more punishing than currently, considering like most people have said : they cast Freedom with Steed anyhow.

06/11/2018 08:17 PMPosted by Vaerume
No matter how much extra value you attach to freedom, the majority of times it's going to be self casted, which goes against the whole idea of blessing others.


So this is already an issue with Freedom.

Might as well bake in the PvP talent as it is also useful for PvE.

At least it's a realistic suggestion to improve our mobility, compared to asking for Leaps and 12 second speed boosts tied to Judgment (which is IMO worse than tying it to Freedom. At least Freedom doesn't require a target).
06/11/2018 08:26 PMPosted by Beraht
At least it's a realistic suggestion to improve our mobility, compared to asking for Leaps


What I never understood is why Paladins are always compared to warriors and limited in mobility because of it.

In Legion, we saw the introduction of Grapple Hook, is this not the same as Heroic Leap? Target an area and launch your way to it.

We saw the introduction of Fel Dash, is this not the same as Roll? Quickly move forward 15 yards.

We saw the introduction of Harpoon, target an enemy and launch to them. Is this not the same as charge?

We saw the introduction of Infernal Strike, is this not the same as Heroic Leap? Target a location and lead to it?

4 Specs copied warriors this expansion alone, no body bats an eye. Paladins ask for something, anything, that slightly resembles another gap closing ability and it's the end of the world. Homogenization just hit peak levels.....

I don't know, it just find it silly.

As for Freedom, yeah 90% of the time it is casted on the paladin, because it has to be. I wish it wasn't and if our gap closer worked without it, it'd be nice to open it up to the team again.

Give BoF 2 charges, with 40% unbound freedom baseline, and then make Cavalier into Aura of Vigor, an AoE freedom/sprint. Then sure, make our dispelable utility our gap closer. :D
06/12/2018 06:51 AMPosted by Zaim
4 Specs copied warriors this expansion alone, no body bats an eye. Paladins ask for something, anything, that slightly resembles another gap closing ability and it's the end of the world. Homogenization just hit peak levels.....


Maybe it's because those abilities have flavor that fits the class. There's only so many ways to make a Grappling hook ability and it fit Outlaw perfectly in a way Shadowstep simply doesn't.

And Demon Hunters had the whole "Momentum" talent thing that made the movement into a an actual playstyle, not to mention their "movement" is actually attacks.

Most Paladins, when asking for Leap, literally ask for Leap. Or Holy Shadowstep (falling sword). There's just no specific flavour to it. And with Blizzard's stance on the "immobile Mounted Knight" concept which makes absolutely no sense, asking for an extreme shift is most likely to get ignored I guess.

06/12/2018 06:51 AMPosted by Zaim
Give BoF 2 charges, with 40% unbound freedom baseline, and then make Cavalier into Aura of Vigor, an AoE freedom/sprint. Then sure, make our dispelable utility our gap closer. :D


Did you just ask for Stampeding Roar ?
06/12/2018 07:06 AMPosted by Beraht


Did you just ask for Stampeding Roar ?


I like to think of it as Aspect of the Pack. ;)
Fel Rush = Roll
Blink = Displacer
Heroic Leap = Grapple Hook
Charge = Feral Charge = Fel Blade = Harpoon
Demonic Portal = Transcendence
Dash = Sprint = Divine Steed
Shadow Step = Pounce
Demon hunter mastery = Feral Swiftness = Old PoJ :(
etc etc...

The only things left not being copied is Flying Serpent kick, Blink, and Druid travel form forward bounce. (Gust of Wind)

It's not like every class has this own unique gap closing ability, paladins getting a copy of Gust of Wind or Flying serpent kick, but having a Crusading leap (Like Tirion vs Lich Kongger) or a Crusading Steed isn't to far fetched.

It just this stigma vs paladins having any sort of gap closing ability which is confusing to me.

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